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Most outlandish fake facts on CF

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by GreekOrthodox, Mar 24, 2017.

  1. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    As I skim through various thread on CF, I keep getting stunned by some of the statements of "facts" that people make on here. As most posters in Traditional Theology are fairly well versed in history, theology, and reasoned discussion, I'm wondering what are the craziest notions you have seen on CF? Some of my favorites include:

    - The pope wears a hat in the shape of a fish because he really worships Dagon. (thanks to Chick Tracts)
    - Luther left the Catholic church because he wanted to get married. (Its been a while since I've seen this one)
    - If the KJV was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me (I have not seen this actually stated but some things I've read are close).
    - The Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible. (IMHO, I'd love to find a better term for the pre-schism church being used by Catholics, EO and OO)
    - Constantine wrote the Bible and burned everything else.
     
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  2. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Wait, Jesus didn't have access to the KJV, that was before His time. But St. Paul did, of course, and if it was good enough for St. Paul, then it's good enough for me .. :preach: ^_^
     
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  3. dysert

    dysert Member

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    I wonder if Paul had a red-letter edition.
     
  4. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics

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    One of the screwiest 'facts' I've found is anyone even slightly paying attention to Chick Tracts. The basic plan of salvation is generally pretty good, but that can be had in numerous other tracts, without Jack Chick's goofy ideas inserted
    Martin DID get married. But I doubt that was either the primary or sole motivation. The reality has been discussed and presented so many times I find it hard to swallow there are people who believe this. I haven't heard it in a long time, either. Perhaps it's dying a natural death and we shouldn't disturb it.

    :facepalm!: Don't get me started.

    I prefer the myth of King James writing the Bible in 1611. I agree, I'd like to find a better term also, but it would have to be one agreed upon. Otherwise it becomes an insult.
    If he did, he did a miserable job of it.


    The stuff I find objectionable:

    Superficial reading and understanding. Like citing the commandment in the Decalog about murder then saying the later directions about execution and war is a 'contradiction'.

    The staggering stupidity of assuming logic doesn't apply to God. As if the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is unpredictable and random.

    The practice of cutting and pasting vast amounts of scripture (usually KJV)(see above) only barely related - if at all - to the subject at hand AND no discussion.

    And on the other side, the complete and blind faith in their own belief that current science cannot be superseded.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    What else .. :p
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Related to the Constantine one, that the bishops at Nicea threw a bunch of books on a table and the ones that fell off were discarded and the ones that remained became the Bible. Some actually believe this silly story, its origin seems to be something snarky Voltaire said once (he didn't believe it himself; he was, as noted, being snarky).

    Here are a few others I've heard:

    John Wycliffe was charged with heresy and executed by the Roman Catholic Church (in truth, Wycliffe died a natural death and was only charged with heresy several decades after his death, his body was exhumed and dumped into a river however).

    William Tyndale was executed by the Roman Catholic Church (in truth, Tyndale was executed by the British Crown, and this was several years after Henry VIII had broke away from Rome and made himself head of the English Church).

    Witches were hunted and killed on a massive scale during the middle ages. The belief in witches and witchcraft was regarded as heretical superstition in the middle ages, and both church and civil law explicitly and expressly forbade hunting or killing witches; attitudes only began to change with the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum; as such with hunting was a post-medieval phenomenon, which is why we see it happening (e.g.) in Salem, Massachusetts. Witch hunts and belief in witchcraft isn't a medieval thing, it's a modern thing; medieval Christians new better.

    The "Dark Ages". Just that, the idea of this period of time known as "the dark ages" is regarded by historians to be straight up wrong. Also, a failure to understand what the term "dark ages" means in an historical context--it refers to a period of time of which we know very little because of a lack of written records. Which is why "the dark ages" isn't used by any serious historian to refer to the period between the fall of Rome in the 5th century and the rise of Scholasticism and/or the Renaissance; but instead speak of the early middle ages, high middle ages, and late middle ages (etc). There are plentiful records from the time, and other false ideas about them (such as these were backward, technologically and scientifically stifling, or spiritually dark) remain just as false. There were no dark ages in regard to that period in Western European history.

    That "Roman" in "Roman Catholic Church" has any relation whatsoever to either the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire; rather than a reference to the Bishop of Rome and/or the Roman/Latin Rite.

    That the term "Protestant" refers to a protest against the Catholic Church. In fact the term "Protestant" referred specifically to the German Elector-Princes who formally protested the decision at the second Imperial Diet of Speyer in which the Holy Roman Emperor reversed the decision from the first Diet. The First Diet gave the princes the right to choose for themselves whether to practice the Evangelical or Roman forms of religion, the Second Diet said that all the territories of the Empire had to observe the Roman--the Evangelical Princes protested in an act known as the Protestation at Speyer; for which they were given the name "Protestant". It had nothing whatsoever to do with protesting the Catholic Church.

    Then there are all the Christ-Mythicism claims, e.g. that Christianity just plagiaraized from the cultic following of Mithras, Osiris, etc; such claims are rooted in complete modern nonsense that is demonstrably false by bothering to learn the myths or beliefs/practices of those who worshiped these deities. E.g. the claim that Mithras was born of a virgin is demonstrably false since the birth of Mithras is a frequent theme in ancient Mithraic art where he is shown emerging as a fully formed adult male from solid rock; or that Osiris was crucified and raised from the dead when Osiris was murdered and his body torn apart by Set who then scattered his body parts all over Egypt, Osiris' wife Isis then gathered all the parts of his body, made an incantation, and Osiris was reborn as the king of the underworld.

    Then there's anything written by Alexander Hislop: that Nimrod married Semiramis and gave birth to Tammuz and this was the beginning of Babylonian religion. There's nothing in the historical record that mentions Nimrod marrying the legendary queen Semiramis, and there's definitely nothing tying either to the Mesopotamian worship of Tammuz: Hislop made it up from thin air; something he seems to do frequently in his work. Chick Publications was pretty big on repackaging Hislop's Fables.

    "Allah" is a pagan moon god. Well, no, it's just the Arabic word for "God" and it's what Jews and Christians have also used to refer to God in the Arabic language, and long before Islam was ever around.

    I feel like I could go on, because I've heard so much over the years, but I think it's sufficient to end my list here.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  7. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A Catholic shouldn't be saying the 'Roman' Catholic Church wrote the Bible. When I refer to the time before the schism I just use 'Church', and I share your feeling of awkwardness about what else to call it. We could call it 'Catholic', for 'kata holos' but that has an implication now of excluding those we now call 'Orthodox'. I never use 'Roman Catholic Church' unless talking about the diocese of Rome. I'll speak of 'Latin Rite Catholics' when referring to my own rite within the Catholic Church. At least when I'm paying attention.
     
  8. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    Pretty much anything trying to summarise the Crusades as a simple "us vs. them" in a single sentence.

    A few times I've seen claims to the effect that the Roman Empire, the HOLY Roman Empire, and the "Roman" Catholic Church are all interchangeable terms for the same thing.
     
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    I agree too that some term for the early Church would be useful. I usually call it "the Church" or "the ekklesia" or "the early Church" ... but I agree that "the Catholic Church" is incorrect, as far as what most people will understand. Many will be likely to misinterpret "One, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" as well. But ... I listen to EWTN sometimes, and I have often heard them credit "the Catholic Church" with everything from Scriptures to Councils and creeds, so ... that idea is being put out there by someone, to Catholics. Of course, Orthodox have the same perspective in reverse. I prefer not to argue it on CF though ... I'm sure we all have reasons for believing as we do. :)



    As far as outlandish fake facts, they all get to me. Most are of the kind that think the KJV existed/supersedes the original manuscripts as written by the Apostles, and all kinds of "Catholics took over the early Church and corrupted it" ... usually from the death of the Apostle John or earlier. The ties to paganism and mythology too. All been mentioned here.

    But there are also those who believe their (splinter) denomination are the only REAL Christians and have existed under persecuted hiddenness since the first century. There are a few groups who have expressed this that I've seen.
     
  10. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    I'd be open to "the united church" for before the Chalcedonian split and "pre-schism" church before the split between east and west. Latin church works for me for pre Reformation west as well.
     
  11. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    There's also a bonafide flat Earther and a bonafide geocentrist having an argument over which of them is right RIGHT NOW.
     
  12. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd be hoping they were both sock puppets, maybe of each other, but somehow I think they are serious. What a hoot. I had a brief discussion with one of them until I couldn't, just couldn't go on.

    Then there is the whole Antarctica-Gray Reptilian Alien-Nazi-US Military conspiracy. I've seen it mentioned once in these fora. Basically it's where the Nazis are in alliance with the aliens, who have their base in Antarctica. UFOs and all. Nazis in Argentina and Antarctica. The Americans taking over when the Nazis died out. An Argentinian pope. Secretary of State Kerry's trip to Antarctica. Patriarch Kirill's trip to Antarctica. Oh, and the Falkland War was even tied in. Please note I AM NOT an advocate of this one, not at all.
     
  13. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    If they're Poes, they're both very dedicated. I had too bow out too.
    Oh, yeh, and any of the stuff about Freemasons, or the Conspiracy Theories in general. My particular bugbears are the ones about Nibiru and the Anunnaki, but we haven't had a good one of them for a while.

    Oh, and while we're at it, Evolution and vaccine deniers. Science deniers in general, actually.
     
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    My habit is usually to refer to the "historic Christian Church", which is an attempt to be as inclusive as possible in regard to the many traditions which trace their lineage to the times of the apostles, fathers, creeds, and councils. "Catholic" is completely accurate but as you said can give a false impression to people generally unfamiliar with ecclesiastical history.

    Perhaps "Catholic Orthodox Church"? to refer to the time prior to the Great Schism, inclusive of the Non-Chalcedonian Churches.

    I don't know if there is ultimately a perfect solution to what is a very messy bit of history.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  15. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I realize I'm in the minority here, but is there any compelling reason not to just call it "the Church"? If your posting is clear enough and your interlocutor bothers to look at the info box opposite your user name that appears with every post, they should be able to tell what particular tradition you belong to, so I don't see the point in trying to invent an all-inclusive term. It should be taken for granted that everyone of a historic communion sees their particular communion as the Church, so that's not even really a point to be argued about, and I would not expect or demand that anyone post as though their ecclesiology is something other than what it is for my sake, just as I would not stop posting as I please according to my own Church's standard just because some Chalcedonian somewhere has a problem with it. Such problems only exist because we're not the same Church now, but we were then, so subsequent divisions shouldn't matter if we're referring to times before them/things agreed upon by all.

    Anyway, I've heard all kinds of weirdness about my own Church on here, presumably because there are so few of us on here that it is assumed that nobody can know what is true or what isn't true about us: that the Desert Fathers taught Gnostic understandings of the faith (I take it this was a misunderstanding based on the fact that Nag Hammadi is in Egypt, but the poster did not say so; it was just "I've heard this somewhere, so it's true, right?"); that we are somehow descended from the Roman Catholic Church (not even from a Latin Catholic, but from a Mormon! Huh?); that the Christian cross was 'copied' from the Egyptian ankh because Egyptian Christians did not want to give up their pagan beliefs (and the rest of the churches just went with it, I guess?); that we are Sabellians who do not believe in the Trinity; that we are Sabellians because we believe in the Trinity (?); that we do not believe that Christ is both divine and human (this one's an oldie; still wrong, but kinda quaint at this point); that anyone who worships in Arabic has had their theology 'corrupted' by Islam and hence cannot be Christian, etc.

    It's confusing trying to keep track of all the things we supposedly are!
     
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  16. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So do we agree, more or less, that that old thing before we all came unglued be referred to as 'the Church'?
     
  17. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    Actually I used simply "the Church" most frequently of all. It really depends on the context and how I think the person I'm speaking to will understand me. I sometimes use "the ekklesia" if I think "Church" might have negative connotations for some.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I've come across a number of King James Only sorts who insist that the Alexandrian text types have to be "evil" because they are Alexandrian, and Alexandria is in Egypt, and everything in Egypt is bad (usually referring to Egypt's status as an enemy of Israel in the Old Testament, and/or trying to suggest that Origen of Alexandria was a Gnostic heretic); once I pointed out that St. Athanasius was from Alexandria and explained his role in the Arian controversy--that gave them a bit of a head scratcher. They also seem to be unaware of Isaiah 19:25.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just call it the Church, or the early Church. No denominationalism is implied by that.
     
  20. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    Can we have a choir "ahhh"ing when we say "the Church" until those crazy Arabic Egyptian Trinitarian Sabellians who are descendants of Rome but really want to use ankhs came along? :p

    Personally, I dont mind and among our group, we all get it. It's dealing with people who don't have a background in any church history where I would prefer to have a better distinction of the church.
     
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