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Most Christians know little about the actual teachings of the church they attend.

Discussion in 'Fundamentalist Christians' started by Jack Koons, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. sdajeff

    sdajeff Guest

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    Jane, not many people will go for Isaiah 45:7 even though you can read in certain places where God did "send the flood to destroy the earth" and God did "send an evil spirit to king Saul". Sometimes God just removes His protection and these things happen because satan is right there to make certain that all his deceptions are carried out to the fullest once God gives the okay to him. BUT there are times like the flood and the evil spirit to Saul where He actually causes these things to happen. I know God is all good and love, and there is nothing anyone can say to remove one fraction from that, but it is His prerogative to create the evil or to remove protections for satan to have his way. Who am I to tell the difference, or make that distinction.
    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created by God to test mankind and he failed. Did God create the evil yes, did God force man to do evil no, God gave man free will to choose evil over good. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is very profound, especially what God told Adam after he ate of it that "his eyes shall be open and he shall know good AND EVIL." Before that time Adam and Eve only knew good.
     
  2. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    I could go into an examination of each of these verse to prove that God does not decree apostasy. But since you are convinced that He does and that what I am saying is untrue, I won't waste any more of your time or mine. Misapplying Scripture is not the way to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
     
  3. Jane Grey

    Jane Grey Newbie

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    Job 8,
    If you are going to take the time however to insinuate that I am misapplying scripture, you might as well take the time to show how.
     
  4. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    OK. Let's examine each Scripture, but before we do that let's see what God has to say about apostasy, and whether He could ever decree something which He hates:
    1. WHAT IS A DECREE? It is a commandment, an ordinance, or edict, or an imperial law.
    2. WHAT IS APOSTASY? It is a transliteration of the Greek word apostasia which means "a falling away"(2 Thess 2:3), and in fact a falling away from "the Faith which was once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). This encompasses the whole body of doctrine and practice in the New Testament (2 Tim 3:1-5; 4:3,4).
    3. DOES GOD HATE APOSTASY? (Rev 2:6,15,20-23)
    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
    20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
    22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    WOULD GOD EVER DECREE APOSTASY? (Jas 1:13-15; 1 Pet 1:15,16)
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


    Coming to the verses you have mentioned, and their contexts:
    Rev 17:17 -- These kings and kingdoms are already evil and enemies of God, therefore God judges them through the Beast. Thus they do His will.
    Isa 45:7 -- God brings calamities and judgements ("evil") upon those who are ungodly and disobedient.
    Amos 3:6 -- the same. God first warns sinners and evil doers and gives them ample time to repent. When they do not, He brings His judgments ("evil") upon them. "I will punish you for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2).
    Ezek 6:10 -- the same
    Ezek 14:19 -- false prophets FIRST choose to be deceived in order to deceive others, then they are blinded and "deceived" by God indirectly in that He sends a "strong delusion" upon those who reject the truth or pervert the truth (2 Thess 2:11).
    Mic 1:12 -- look at the context from verse 1 downwards. These people were idolaters who looked for good from their idols. Because that was a grievous sin against God, He brought judgement ("evil") upon them.

    Not one of these verses even remotely suggest that God decrees sin, evil, idolatry or any such thing. That would be contradictory to His nature, which is holy. However when judgements are applied, they are definitely "evil" to the ones being judged, because they bring destruction and Hell to sinners. And there are a multitude of such judgements to come in the future.
     
  5. sdajeff

    sdajeff Guest

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    There are many awesome videos out on You Tube on bible translations and the history of the bible. The whole key is which manuscript is used for the translation. I prefer the KJV and demand everyone read the same version at bible study.

    You Tube has over 4 BILLION videos! You can watch ANYTHING on there. I like watching the reformation movies like Tyndale, Martin Luther, many more, and One of my favorite movies of all time is Hudson Taylor which can be watched on You Tube. I ONLY watch You Tube. I turned my commercial network TV off in 1984. I only watch shows and movies online netflix or you tube.
     
  6. Jane Grey

    Jane Grey Newbie

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    "There are times like the flood and the evil spirit to Saul where He actually causes these things to happen. I know God is all good and love, and there is nothing anyone can say to remove one fraction from that, but it is His prerogative to create the evil or to remove protections for satan to have his way. Who am I to tell the difference, or make that distinction.
    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created by God to test mankind and he failed. Did God create the evil yes, did God force man to do evil no"
    Well said sdajeff. Sorry for the belated reply... I am praying for you, hope to hear that things are working out soon.
     
  7. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    The Flood was God's JUDGEMENT on sin and evil. The record shows that He gave the world 120 years to repent. To use the Flood to illustrate how God "creates" evil is evil in itself.

    Why did God send an evil spirit to Saul? Was God evil or was the evil spirit evil? Did God allow Satan to attack Job? Was God evil or was Satan evil?

    This is really stretching it. To say that God created evil because the tree of the knowledge of good and evil existed is to do violence to Scripture and to impugn the character of God. We do not know the nature of the fruit of that tree. What we do know is that it was a test of obedience.

    The evil was in the disobedience itself, as the record will show. Once again we have a misapplication and misinterpretation to teach false doctrine. When God says He creates "evil", that Hebrew word means calamities and disasters that come upon the disobedient and which are evil from their perspective. Satan would love to have people believe that God does evil things, and that is the false doctrine you are promoting.
     
  8. Jane Grey

    Jane Grey Newbie

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    WHAT IS A DECREE? It is a commandment, an ordinance, or edict, or an imperial law ([FONT=&quot] God says “let there be light” it is a decree. He is commanding light to be. So God’s word is a command or a decree. When God told His prophet “There come a falling away (apostasy)”He was proclaiming a great apostasy was coming. His word is law. His word is and imperial command. God’s word is God’s command and law. So if God said it is law it is a command it is a decree so to speak.)[/FONT]
    DOES GOD HATE APOSTASY? (OF course God hates apostasy just because God hates apostasy doesn’t mean he did not ordain it to happen! He uses apostasy for his own purpose)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    WOULD GOD EVER DECREE APOSTASY? (Jas 1:13-15; 1 Pet 1:15,16)
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    How about “and it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham”, (Gen 22:1)[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    So I ask other readers, what do you think? How can the Bible say God does not temp man, but it also says he did tempt Abraham? The Bible says many things that sound contradictory. I could make a lot of examples but one would be what sdajeff said a few comments back about how the false church teaches that all you have to do is say you believe in Christ and you are saved because that is what Romans 10:9 says. But the Bible also says you have to hear and obey the word of God to be saved Matthew 7. Where is the church that teaches you have to totally know the word of God and obey in order to be saved? I haven’t seen it but that’s what the Bible says. (So yeah, God would decree apostasy. He said it would happen, if he did not decree it to happen then who is God, just a fortune teller, someone who sees something is going to happen but has nothing to do with it? Apostasy is a trial, a temptation. James does say don’t say God is tempting you. It is like saying take responsibility for yourself. God sends us trials to prove our faith but we can’t blame God if we are getting drawn away by our own lusts. It is the classic God’s sovereignty versus human responsibility argument. God is sovereign and I am still responsible.)
    To further quote Job 8 “When God says He creates "evil", that Hebrew word means calamities and disasters that come upon the disobedient and which are evil from their perspective. Satan would love to have people believe that God does evil things, and that is the false doctrine you are promoting.”

    In Isaiah 45:7 the Hebrew word ra strong’s h7451 was translated as evil. To say that word really means calamity and disaster is ridiculous. Look at a concordance. Isaiah 45:7 says if " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Should really be translated as “I make peace and create calamity and disaster” then Gen 2:9 could more accurately be translated as “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and disaster.”
    The Bible straight says that God said he created evil. It’s kind of a no brainer. If God did not create evil than who did! Did Satan create himself? To say that God created evil in no way shape or form implicates that God is evil or that God does evil things! God uses evil for his own purpose, which is always good.
     
  9. sdajeff

    sdajeff Guest

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    I have tried this site, but it is just like all the rest very unChristlike. I have been on many of these sites only to spend hours writing out posts and responses just to have them skimmed and criticized for spelling errors and all sorts of idiotic nit picking. I desire advanced bible study but haven't found anywhere that really want to have a Christian study without bashing and nit picking. My motto, ever since it started is WWJD. I am very old fashioned and when I see sites like these which censure topics and delete threads they do not agree with it just causes me to weep like Jesus would if He were here. Its like we are all little children and many who are on these sites only spout off what they learn from their denominations to the demise of the whole site.
    Even though the doctrines are so mixed up by the devil, there is definitely NO love among Christians today, otherwise there would be encouragement on ALL Christian sites, but instead there is bashing and criticizing, and I have grown weary of that along with casting my pearls before swine. The Lord has revealed to me that doing online studies is a great way for the enemy to hide their deceptions because writing out the truth, using verses that many thought do not exist in the bible is just giving the enemy ammunition to deceive more souls. I have noticed over the past 30 years how disguised the deceptions are becoming and how hard they are to expose to those who have the veil over their eyes.
    God bless you! You will be in my prayers.
     
  10. Jane Grey

    Jane Grey Newbie

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    Thanks Jeff,
    My husband has been extremely against me going on any of these sites for just such reasons. I just wanted to reach out and see if anyone had the same experience that we did. It is edifying to me that one person has been able to relate. My husband and I feel that the apostasy is so bad that it would be pointless to post on any "Christian" site because it would turn into these pointless wranglings and attacks. I know their are others like us out there, it just seemed likely that they would probably be like us also in just giving up on even trying to be a part of any of this on any level. I just thought I would give it a shot and like I said, I am edified by your responses. I don't expect on any level to change anyone's mind, I just wanted to see if against the odds I could find someone of the same mind. Blessings, I'll keep praying for you also! Peace
     
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