• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Most Christians have no concept of what Heaven is really like

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by GirdYourLoins, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    +1,001
    Christian
    Single
    This world is incredibly beautiful, when humans have not ruined it. I expect it to be even better, a place without evil.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,398
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Don't we already have those?
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,398
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Then who are these people, Just outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, in the New Heavens and Earth that Revelation 22:15 testifies are there?
    "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

    If there is no evil there, how are there people there in the process of practicing sexual immorality, sorcery, murder, idolatry and lies?
     
  4. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

    +5,464
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    Revelation 21:1-5


    King James Version



    21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
     
  5. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,197
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I figure it will be much like before the fall, Earth without sin basically. Heaven is called the new Earth in revelation.
     
  6. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

    +5,464
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    I agree that it will be very similar.. in many respects.. Eden was called a paradise...

    More people though.
     
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +3,883
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    How could that possibly be eternal paradise? I don’t understand. :scratch:
     
  8. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

    510
    +194
    Christian
    Married
    Why would you want to spend eternity in heaven? God won’t be in the heavens, neither will Jesus.

    Hint: Zechariah ch. 14; Revelation ch. 21.
     
  9. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,482
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Heaven is not our final home for eternity. The new earth is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God where our King ,Jesus Christ of Nazareth resides forever with His chosen.
    Be blessed
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  10. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

    +635
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    I don't trust any extra biblical expressions of heavenly tourists. What we have from the prophets and apostles is a lot of singing which.. yeah, I know OP is referring to me in a thread I did about the mansions that some people see as something to look forward to. I don't value material wealth much so I don't get ally jazzed about any promises of material wealth. But I also expressed to him that I don't enjoy singing, some others of you might also know this.

    It creates a very pessimistic view of heaven for me when the thing displayed most in heaven is something I don't like doing.
    Try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment and imagine, if the word of God displayed heaven as something that you don't like doing, in every time heaven is described.
    Like imagine if it was washing the dishes before the throne of God instead of singing, if you like singing (I can't imagine people who really like doing dishes, it's a chore they do because they have to). If that's what heaven was described as, an eternity of washing dishes, would you be as excited?
     
  11. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

    +635
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    Kinda sad to me, because oceans are beautiful. If I got to choose my own environment for a new earth we'd have oceans that are clearer and cleaner than they've ever been on this earth, and we'd be able to breathe and see clearly underwater to see all the coral reefs and colorful fish, and not fear sharks or dangerous tides. But that's not the image presented.

    Same, and not just this planet I'd like to explore others. I like playing a video game (unfortunately one of the few things I can really do with my disabilities) called No Man's Sky, where you just get in your own space ship and fly around to star systems and explore procedurally generated planets and see weird animals. I'd like to do something along that lines but real, and intelligently designed planets rather than randomly generated stuff. It'd be way better.

    Only thing that might be bad about the feasting is... no meat as far as we know, unless God is going to have bacon trees or like they're considering now, lab grown meat. I'm more of a savory person than sweet so.. eternity of eating fruit kinda doesn't light me up.


    Easily the most disheartening verse in scripture for me. To never be special to anyone and not have any woman special to me just a bunch of generic "brothers and sisters" but.. I digress on that.

    That is also a fear of mine, when the bible keeps mentioning that we're the body of Christ and we are "in" Christ I get some fears of losing individuality, and that gets reinforced by people saying that your desires will change to only desire God.. so. one size fits all eternity. I have the fear that God would change me so much that it's like the person who I actually am is just deleted from existence and replaced by a doppleganger with a more convenient personality. That's not eternal life that's annihilationism and replacement.

    This is at least hopeful although the only job specifically mentioned is ruling, but ruling over who has always been the thing I've wondered.
     
  12. NerdGirl123

    NerdGirl123 If only we could be ourselves...

    +1,257
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Ah, maybe we'll have vast lakes that still have an oceanic feel to them? :) Being able to breathe underwater would be amazing!

    Hey, who knows? Maybe you will!

    Pretty sure God can craft a feast that will satisfy all of your meatish cravings and you won't be thinking about it one bit :)

    I can understand this, as I am a huge and hopeless romantic. I think, if you had a spouse or lover on earth, you'll still recognize them as such; as having been "special" to you. But all of the desires that we seek in spouses on earth will be fulfilled by our nearness with God. Because, if you break them down and analyze them, that's all they really are. The desire to be known, to be close, to be held, to be cherished, to be wanted, to be connected. All of that will be satisfied in a perfect way that can never happen perfectly on earth. Our desires and relationships with lovers are just mirror images of the relationship God wants with us. But trust me, I get it. We can only look at these concepts through our earthly eyes for now :)

    I used to have this fear, too, but I don't anymore. We'll be a perfected version of ourselves. We aren't going to stop being us! Just like when you're at church and you feel that amazing "oneness" with the people around you. That's just a tiny taste of what we'll experience! But we'll still be ourselves, even while we're so much more connected to the rest of the Body :)

    Ruling entails a whole host of duties all by itself. And there will be a vast city with undoubtedly lots of duties to fulfill. And a new planet, perhaps with gardens and fields to tend, animals to care for. I imagine the creative types will be writing endless music and songs, perhaps penning tales and stories, painting, sculpting, and making art!
     
  13. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +638
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I would like to walk on water :)
     
  14. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

    +635
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    Hey, who knows? Maybe you will!
    Pretty sure God can craft a feast that will satisfy all of your meatish cravings and you won't be thinking about it one bit :)
    [/quote]
    Maybe, but at this point I'm kind of conditioned that heaven isn't about what I want it's about God's glory. So I don't expect much for me personally.

    It's a little bit worse for me I feel, and I wonder why other men don't have the same apprehension about their needs for intimacy being fully satisfied by another male. Not when we're told that's an abomination and it kinda makes you think "why did God create women and a desire for women when the eternal relationship is with a male?" It never ceases to make me feel emasculated. It is for a myriad of reasons the most challenging part of being a Christian to me. this idea that I have to switch from desiring a woman, to desiring a male God, and that all things sexual, and being one flesh with a woman, and all of it, is a picture pointing to those desires being satisfied by a male God.

    Its the language that the bible uses "in Christ" rather than "with Christ" for instance, combined with an old anime I watched called Neon Genesis Evangelion, where they had a "Human Instrumentality" Project and the result was everyone's bodies and consciousnesses merging together into one giant sea of orange liquid (that fans of the show call tang) and losing identity. Just a scary concept, I mean one of the reasons you seek Christ is to deal with existential crisis, of what happens when you die, do you just stop existing, etc etc. So for me it's very important to still be "me". To not lose identity, to have my own body, and my own personality. If heaven has a loss of identity and everyone becoming "one" it's very similar to that non existence fear, it's still a scary concept to me. Thankfully the bible does show individuals, and even names individuals like you pointed out.

    Maybe, and a little speculation I don't think hurts too much but at the same time, if it's not explicitly in the bible I don't speculate on it too much, in a way, that kinda sets you up for disappointment. Like earlier the space travel thing, if I set my heart on being able to do that and God says nope, you have to stay on the new earth, I'd be disappointed. So I can't set my heart on that, because God hasn't promised it.
     
  15. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +12,354
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, and what is the compelling evidence that those people actually bear true witness?
     
  16. NerdGirl123

    NerdGirl123 If only we could be ourselves...

    +1,257
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    We're promised "pleasures forevermore". It's not as if you'll be standing there, sullen and disappointed, while everyone else parties. I promise :)

    I'd never thought about that angle before. Bear in mind that God encompasses both male and female. Men and women are made in His image. And the relationship that we have in Heaven won't be sexual, because there won't be any need for it anymore; marriage, children, etc. You have to remind yourself that what you desire and wish now won't be the same as then. You'll still be you, and your basic personality won't change. For instance, if you've spent your whole life loving dogs, I imagine you'll still love dogs in Heaven! But sexual desire isn't something we carry from birth to death. We feel it for a season. We don't feel it as children, and it fades as we grow older, because it serves a purpose; to join with another person and create children. I don't think we'll "miss" that in Heaven. That desire will simply not be there. Again, don't picture yourself being sexually frustrated in Heaven and feeling let down. That's NOT going to happen :)

    Have you never felt "oneness" with a large group of people before? At church, at a concert, at a sports game? It's not scary, right? It's really cool! You're still fully YOU. But you're part of something bigger, and you aren't focused just on yourself.

    Disappointment will not exist in Heaven :)
     
  17. Biltong65

    Biltong65 New Member

    72
    +53
    United States
    Protestant
    Single

    Let alone, most humans...
     
  18. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

    +635
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    Well that IS my biggest worry that I'd have to go off somewhere else and hide to avoid spoiling everyone else's joy. I'd have a rosier (although false) view of eternity if I'd never read the bible to be honest.

    Well, I don't exactly think we're going to be kissing up to a bearded Jesus, no. But.. those expressions of affection are pleasant to have, and.. as far as we know, we won't be doing them with anyone. Is it really gonna just be handshakes and sidehugs?
    Sex isn't just about procreation it's also an expression of love and intimacy. It's not like a married couple gets to menopause and just never has sex again. So while having children might not be necessary those other 2 things still are, and I often question on how you can express love and intimacy with the amount of distance people put between themselves in gestures of affection that are for people that aren't your spouse. Handshakes and sidehugs aren't intimacy they're a deliberate way to limit intimacy.
    Not to mention, if you're a life long bachelor/bachelorette, never had kids, but always desired to have them.... a father is not a child, He doesn't become that role. So that role in your life remains missing. People try to cope with that missing role by having "fur babies" in this life but.. honestly, it's not a true replacement or fulfillment for someone that you care for and nurture and teach and watch grow.
    So there is still a massive, and I mean MASSIVE FOMO for me when it comes to those topics. I can only experience so much joy vicariously through seeing other people have joy in their children before it bounces back to reflect on me the absence of such a thing in my own life.. instead of being bitter sweet it's sweet then bitter.[/quote]

    Sure like I said, I'm reassured that there's still identity in the bible, but often times in my wrestling with concepts like how I'll be happy in a place that promises that things I would like won't be there and shows the main activity as being something I dislike doing, and the concept of how a desire for intimacy would be met and how would I not feel like I missed out on good things, ideas like "well maybe we're all just melted together" come into fruition. False ideas, but, like I said, they crop up because I have no other way to solve those missing holes, the things I miss out on, and how to experience joy doing something I hate 24/7/365/eternity, than to have my personality wiped like a formatted hard drive, and replaced with a more convenient personality.
    It also leads to a bunch of what you probably think of as bizarre coping mechanisms I'm sure, such as just feeling like "okay so I'm not here in heaven/new earth for my own desires, I'm here for God, whether I'm happy or not is totally irrelevant." Ultimately, I don't exactly have a better option... my current life in my current disabled body isn't exactly joy, and after it, it's either endure endless torture, or whatever heaven is even if it's like going to visit Grandma's house where you really want to visit Grandma herself but the futon is uncomfortable, and there are no kids in the neighborhood for you to play with... at least you're not being tortured.
    But what I can't see for myself is, truly being happy and totally fulfilled, without feeling like I missed out on anything good.


    So then what happens if you set your heart on something that God has not promised and God tells you no?
    I used to hope that I'd be married in the resurrection, until I actually read the bible. Words can't express the disappointment.
    The worst part about that all was, when I'd think about this false heaven where I was married, the spirit put on me a very CONCENRED admonition.. if I had to put it into words He said "well... about that.. what if I told you that's not going to happen, and that you'd always be single. Trust me there's a reason for it, but that's what I decided. Can you be okay with that?"
    The concern that was there .. He knew I was setting myself up for massive disappointment and that I needed the truth, even though it was a painful, disappointing truth. Better to wrestle with it now than in eternity I guess.
     
  19. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +12,354
    Christian
    Married
    Jamdoc said:
    Maybe, but at this point I'm kind of conditioned that heaven isn't about what I want it's about God's glory. So I don't expect much for me personally.

    Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart. -- Psalm 37

    Sounds like in heaven we get a lot of the Lord.
     
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

    +635
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    It's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you make the Lord your desire, He will give you Himself, that is, the desire of your heart.
    It's a little like being told the menu at a chow hall and deciding after being told, that what you desire to eat, is what you're being served, so of course, you're now getting what you want. But if you want something that's not on the menu, they're not going to provide that for you.
    I don't read that verse as if you take delight in the Lord He becomes your genie in a bottle giving you everything you want.
    Verses like Matthew 22:30 and Revelation 21:1 about their being no seas sounds like the asterisk "some restrictions may apply"
    Paul says "how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" well, how about "He doesn't because He said He wouldn't"? He is sovereign, He does make the decisions, and and if we want something He's said no to.. should we still expect to get it?
    So, if you make it the only thing you want to do, is stare at Jesus, well then yes, God is going to give you that, it's promised.
    Anything else? *some restrictions may apply

    and with that agreement I just get that you're telling me "well then just stop wanting things like marriage and children so you can't be disappointed"?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
Loading...