Most beautiful month in the year(Ramadan).....

[TG123]

Once upon a time, there was a baby boy who was born, and his daddy decided to name him Muslim. This man, Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, eventually become the prized pupil of his teacher Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari.

During the classical period of hadith collection in Islam, only four people (that I know of) attempted to make collections of only strong hadith. Scholars have recognized two of these collections as successfully doing just that. The collections of sound ahadith of al-Bukhari and his student Muslim are the two sources that most Sunnis around the world accept being comprised of all accurate narrations. Bukhari's work had more stringent conditions for hadith acceptance than Muslim's. Bukhari's is more academic, Muslim's is more user friendly.

So, Muslim (when we're talking about who reported a narration) isn't a religious label.. it's the first name of the scholar who compiled the narrations. Hope that clarifies.

Thanks for the interesting information, JJ. Ramadan Mubarak.

 

[simplegifts]

You claim that Islam/Ramadan turns Muslims into morality police, and that they are more violent during this month towards those who do not observe it. I asked you to show me evidence from the Quran or hadith that shows it is ok for Muslims to punish those who do not observe Ramadan, as you claim Islam does.

Then you seem to be saying I shouldn't be looking for specific examples, as the Quran/Islam are not specific. If the Quran or Islam does not specifically say that fast breakers and people who do not observe Ramadan should be punished, then how can you make the argument Islam turns people into morality police during Ramadan? If you want to make a claim like that, you need to back it up with examples.


Then if the wife could be attacked by her husband... at any time... not that Islam teaches that... the surah has no relevance to Ramadan because according to you it is claiming it can happen at any time of the year, Ramadan included.


The statements were written by an Islamic writer (and in my opinion, a bigoted moron... I've seen his site in quite detail) living in the 21st century. If you are going to claim Islam calls for people who do not observe Ramadan to be punished, show me quotes from the Quran or hadiths, not something written by someone who lived over a thousand years after Muhammad did.

That is like quoting Martin Luther's rants against the Jews and saying this is what Jesus and the Bible have to say.

Here is a short selection, complete with quotes:

n 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible harlot and an evil [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



That is like saying "whether from the Bible/Jesus or any Christian leaders like Martin Luther it is still Christianity".


You tell me. Then tell me how is it relevant to this discussion, which is about Ramadan.


Is the hadith you quoted from Bukhari? Feel free to provide a link to a Muslim site where they are displayed.

Are we discussing Martin Luther? Please start a new thread on that subject.

Read newspapers or blog and you will see the violence and call to violence over the years by Muslims.

The relationship between Ramadan and Jihad (fighting) in the way of Allah - History - Thoughts and Knowledge - Alukah.net

Muslims killing Muslims during Ramadan - why?
Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq - Yahoo! News

Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq
Reuters – Sun, Jul 22, 2012

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Car bombs in two towns south of Baghdad and in the Iraqi city of Najaf killed a total of 20 people on Sunday and wounded 80, police and hospital sources said, in one of the most violent days of the past two weeks.





You are having a difficult time understanding - connecting the dots so to speak of my observations. I don't know any other way of putting it but:

The Quran and Islam are very vague on many things. This vagueness allows those that seek evil to do evil any time and any place for all times. Muslims are to subdue, fight and kill all non-muslims for all times so that Islam is supreme over all others.

 

[simplegifts]

Your response

....
The statements were written by an Islamic writer (and in my opinion, a bigoted moron... I've seen his site in quite detail) living in the 21st century. If you are going to claim Islam calls for people who do not observe Ramadan to be punished, show me quotes from the Quran or hadiths, not something written by someone who lived over a thousand years after Muhammad did.

...

To:

Originally Posted by WoodrowLi

Did you not read this completely?
“Remember Ramadan is a pillar of Islam. A Muslim not following all aspects of Islam might easily be considered an apostate and we all know the penalty for apostasy:”
“Sharia -
ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM
o8.7 (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are:
...
(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def: b7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);
...
There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.”

Take those statements and the fact that apostasy calls for death.
==============

I believe you have some studying to do:

“Remember Ramadan is a pillar of Islam. A Muslim not following all aspects of Islam might easily be considered an apostate and we all know the penalty for apostasy:”

Are my words and I do not have a website.

===============
“Sharia -
ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM
o8.7 (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are:
...
(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def: b7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);
...
There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.”

Is from:

Reliance of the Traveller and Tools for the Worshipper.
A CLASSIC MANUAL OF ISLAMIC SACRED LAW BY AHMAD IBN
NAQIB AL-MISRI (Died 1368 AD)​

Edited and Translated by Sheik Nuh Ha Mim Keller


Which is Islamic law, Sharia from the Qur'an & Sunnah. This is the law that Muslims believe should rule the world.
​

 

[Supreme]

Are we discussing Martin Luther? Please start a new thread on that subject.

Read newspapers or blog and you will see the violence and call to violence over the years by Muslims.

The relationship between Ramadan and Jihad (fighting) in the way of Allah - History - Thoughts and Knowledge - Alukah.net

Muslims killing Muslims during Ramadan - why?
Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq - Yahoo! News

Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq
Reuters – Sun, Jul 22, 2012

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Car bombs in two towns south of Baghdad and in the Iraqi city of Najaf killed a total of 20 people on Sunday and wounded 80, police and hospital sources said, in one of the most violent days of the past two weeks.





You are having a difficult time understanding - connecting the dots so to speak of my observations. I don't know any other way of putting it but:

The Quran and Islam are very vague on many things. This vagueness allows those that seek evil to do evil any time and any place for all times. Muslims are to subdue, fight and kill all non-muslims for all times so that Islam is supreme over all others.

So sad that violence in Muslim countries still continues during the holy month of Ramadan.

The link you posted links to a pretty extremist website- I can assure you that most Muslims do not think like that, just the Wahhabi Nazis who oppress the Saudi people and like to export their vile ideology abroad.

 

[TG123]

Are we discussing Martin Luther? Please start a new thread on that subject.

I mentioned him as an example because you claim that regardless of whether Muhammad or Muslims after him called for violence, it is still Islam. I respond by saying this makes as much sense as claiming that whether Jesus or Christians after He ascended called for violence, it is still Christianity. Neither statement makes sense.

Read newspapers or blog and you will see the violence and call to violence over the years by Muslims.

The relationship between Ramadan and Jihad (fighting) in the way of Allah - History - Thoughts and Knowledge - Alukah.net

Muslims killing Muslims during Ramadan - why?
Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq - Yahoo! News

Bombs kill 20 and wound 80 across Iraq
Reuters – Sun, Jul 22, 2012

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Car bombs in two towns south of Baghdad and in the Iraqi city of Najaf killed a total of 20 people on Sunday and wounded 80, police and hospital sources said, in one of the most violent days of the past two weeks.

I don't deny that many Muslims are violent. So are many Christians.

American 'christian' president George Bush invaded the country of Iraq and started a war that still is ongoing, and in which over 100,000 people have died alone. Ronald Reagan's actions in Latin America in 2 countries along (El Salvador and Guatemala) claimed over 370,000 lives. Both the Iraq war and US foreign policy in Latin America were initially supported by the majority of Americans, who for the most part claim to be Christian.

In Bosnia, 'christian' Serbs slaughtered tens of thousands of Muslims and Croats.

However, it is one thing to claim that there are Christians and Muslims practice horrific violence against the innocent, and another that either Christianity or Islam encourages this.

I am not disputing that there are Muslims who act extremely violently during Ramadan, I am disputing your claim that Islam/Ramadan makes them act that way.

You are having a difficult time understanding - connecting the dots so to speak of my observations. I don't know any other way of putting it but:

The Quran and Islam are very vague on many things. This vagueness allows those that seek evil to do evil any time and any place for all times. Muslims are to subdue, fight and kill all non-muslims for all times so that Islam is supreme over all others.

The original claim you made is that Islam/Ramadan makes Muslims act violently.

I asked you to back that up using the Quran or hadith that most Muslims accept as authentic.
You have been unable to do that.

You pasted quotes from the Quran and Bukhari hadith that say God will punish those who break the Ramadan fast and prayers, but these quotes do not encourage Muslims to do so. You came up with one hadith, that is considered by most Muslims to be inauthentic (like the so-called 'gospel of Thomas') that does call for violence. You also quoted a 21st century Saudi scholar, who was obviously not around when either the hadith or Quran were written.

I ask you again can you show that Islam/Ramadan causes Muslims to be violent towards others.

 

[JJWhite]

What if an London Muslim is an olympic athlete? He's not travelling. Does he have to fast for the games?
.

I asked someone from the Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America, and he said that he's been issuing the fatwa that they can break their fast if they need to.

 

[Arthra]

Baha'i, the Shiites and Ismailis
Have nothing to do with Islam
No matter how you try to prove a negative

Baha'is are indendent of Islam but Shiah Muslims would claim to be Muslims of course.

Wishing you a meaningful Ramadan fast!

 

[simplegifts]

I mentioned him as an example because you claim that regardless of whether Muhammad or Muslims after him called for violence, it is still Islam. I respond by saying this makes as much sense as claiming that whether Jesus or Christians after He ascended called for violence, it is still Christianity. Neither statement makes sense.


I don't deny that many Muslims are violent. So are many Christians.

American 'christian' president George Bush invaded the country of Iraq and started a war that still is ongoing, and in which over 100,000 people have died alone. Ronald Reagan's actions in Latin America in 2 countries along (El Salvador and Guatemala) claimed over 370,000 lives. Both the Iraq war and US foreign policy in Latin America were initially supported by the majority of Americans, who for the most part claim to be Christian.

In Bosnia, 'christian' Serbs slaughtered tens of thousands of Muslims and Croats.

However, it is one thing to claim that there are Christians and Muslims practice horrific violence against the innocent, and another that either Christianity or Islam encourages this.

I am not disputing that there are Muslims who act extremely violently during Ramadan, I am disputing your claim that Islam/Ramadan makes them act that way.


The original claim you made is that Islam/Ramadan makes Muslims act violently.

I asked you to back that up using the Quran or hadith that most Muslims accept as authentic.
You have been unable to do that.

You pasted quotes from the Quran and Bukhari hadith that say God will punish those who break the Ramadan fast and prayers, but these quotes do not encourage Muslims to do so. You came up with one hadith, that is considered by most Muslims to be inauthentic (like the so-called 'gospel of Thomas') that does call for violence. You also quoted a 21st century Saudi scholar, who was obviously not around when either the hadith or Quran were written.

I ask you again can you show that Islam/Ramadan causes Muslims to be violent towards others.

No my origianl claim was - about Muslims becoming moral police.

62 arrested for Indonesian Ramadan bar-room blitz - Times LIVE
62 arrested for Indonesian Ramadan bar-room blitz
Sapa-AFP | 30 July, 2012 07:25

Indonesian police have arrested 62 people, most of them minors, involved in attacking a bar in south Jakarta for serving alcohol during Ramadan.

A group of 150 youths -- some as young as 13 and carrying swords and golf clubs -- raided the De Most bar late Saturday, smashing bottles of alcoholic drinks and damaging the property, said Hermawan, chief detective for South Jakarta police.

"Of the 62 arrested most are minors, and some...were armed with Samurai swords, sickles and golf clubs," said Hermawan, who like many Indonesians goes by one name.

"They shattered the windows and door and smashed bottles, saying they wanted all bars shut to ensure the month of Ramadan is not tainted," he added.

Twenty-three people face charges of damaging property while four are additionally charged with carrying sharp weapons.

The group called itself the Prophet's Defenders Council, Hermawan said.
"It is usual for me and my followers to raid sinful places during Ramadan," the group's alleged leader, 33-year-old Habib Bahar was quoted as saying by the Kompas.com news website after the arrests.

"They committed sins there. They get drunk so action must be taken," said Bahar, who was also arrested.

In previous years Islamic groups have raided places serving alcohol, but Saturday's attack was the first this year since the fasting month of Ramadan officially began on July 21.

Authorities have ordered bars and nightclubs to close during the holy month, but the ban is not strictly enforced.

Ninety percent of Indonesia's population of 240 million identify themselves as Muslim but the vast majority practise a moderate form of Islam.
　
　
11 nabbed for not fasting — Daud – BorneoPost Online | Borneo , Malaysia, Sarawak Daily News | Largest English Daily In Borneo
11 nabbed for not fasting — Daud
Posted on July 30, 2012, Monday

MIRI: Eleven Muslims have thus far been nabbed by the Sarawak Islamic Religious Department (Jais) for not fasting during the month of Ramadan which started on July 21, said Assistant Minister in the Chief Ministers Department Datuk Daud Abdul Rahman on Saturday.

Out of the 11 caught, four were from Kota Samarahan, three each from Kuching and Miri, and one from Mukah.

Daud told reporters after presenting assistance to 200 children of Hamidah Yakub Orphanage Complex that the 11 would be charged in court.

For first offenders, they could be fined up to RM1,000 or imprisoned up to six months or both. For subsequent offences, the maximum fine is RM2,000 or a maximum jail term of one year.

The arrests were made not to embarrass the individuals, but to let them know that they should respect the month of Ramadan. They should have been practising their duties as a Muslim, to fast during this Holy month, and not to eat at open food premises," said Daud.

He cautioned that Jais would continue to keep a hawk eye on food premises throughout the state to ensure all Muslims toe the line.

 

[simplegifts]

So sad that violence in Muslim countries still continues during the holy month of Ramadan.

The link you posted links to a pretty extremist website- I can assure you that most Muslims do not think like that, just the Wahhabi Nazis who oppress the Saudi people and like to export their vile ideology abroad.

Yes thankfully, but which is the true Islam?

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes thankfully, but which is the true Islam?

Like everything else, the one followed. As odd as it may be to some people, things are very rarely static in this world. Things ebb and flow.

 

[simplegifts]

Like everything else, the one followed. As odd as it may be to some people, things are very rarely static in this world. Things ebb and flow.

So the literalist violent islam is also true?

 

[LoAmmi]

So the literalist violent islam is also true?

True? What is truth?

It is certainly true for those that do it, is it not?

 

[simplegifts]

True? What is truth?

It is certainly true for those that do it, is it not?

Alrighty then subduing, fighting and or killing all non-muslims is truth. Killing people for vague mischief is truth.

What a bunch of pc crap!!

 

[LoAmmi]

Alrighty then subduing, fighting and or killing all non-muslims is truth. Killing people for vague mischief is truth.

What a bunch of pc crap!!

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The people who engage in that behavior certainly think it's true. That has nothing to do with political correctness. The problem is that they do think it's true.

 

[simplegifts]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The people who engage in that behavior certainly think it's true. That has nothing to do with political correctness. The problem is that they do think it's true.

OH ok!! I get what you are saying now.

Why do the islamic literalists think it is true? Because the Quran is vague!! It has opened ended orders to subdue and kill all mischief makers and non-Muslims.

 

[LoAmmi]

Why do the islamic literalists think it is true? Because the Quran is vague!! It has opened ended orders to subdue and kill all mischief makers and non-Muslims.

There are Christian groups who think Jews need to be opposed because we are "of the Devil". It can be argued that the entire divinity of Jesus in the New Testament is vague. There are non-trinitarian followers, after all.

Keep in mind the entire Dark and Middle Ages had a lot of Christians causing problems based upon the beliefs of others.

I'm not saying any of these are good, but there is a vagueness in all scripture to some degree or another. I hope people will stop killing each other.

 

[simplegifts]

There are Christian groups who think Jews need to be opposed because we are "of the Devil". It can be argued that the entire divinity of Jesus in the New Testament is vague. There are non-trinitarian followers, after all.

Keep in mind the entire Dark and Middle Ages had a lot of Christians causing problems based upon the beliefs of others.

I'm not saying any of these are good, but there is a vagueness in all scripture to some degree or another. I hope people will stop killing each other.

Please reference Christian Scripture that states Christians should opress Jews and act the way they did during the dark and Middle Ages.

Yes there have been horrible "christians" doing horrific things. Christian Scripture in no way points them in that direction.

Yes, believing the divinity of Christ - is more of a person thing that does not effect the well being of others.

Me too!

 

[LoAmmi]

Please reference Christian Scripture that states Christians should opress Jews and act the way they did during the dark and Middle Ages.

Does it matter if the scriptures say it if that is what they did?

However, the scriptures they quoted were the ones where Jews were called vipers, of the Devil, evil, and the like. It spiraled into a belief that the Jews should not exist for what they did to Jesus.

How about 1 Thess. 2:
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

 

[LoAmmi]

and you have stuff like http://www.jewskilledjesus.com/

They quote scripture on the right hand side.

 

[TG123]

Your response

To:

Originally Posted by WoodrowLi

Did you not read this completely?
“Remember Ramadan is a pillar of Islam. A Muslim not following all aspects of Islam might easily be considered an apostate and we all know the penalty for apostasy:”
“Sharia -
ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM
o8.7 (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are:
...
(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def: b7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);
...
There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.”

Take those statements and the fact that apostasy calls for death.
==============

I believe you have some studying to do:

“Remember Ramadan is a pillar of Islam. A Muslim not following all aspects of Islam might easily be considered an apostate and we all know the penalty for apostasy:”

Are my words and I do not have a website.

===============
“Sharia -
ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM
o8.7 (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are:
...
(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def: b7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);
...
There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.”

Is from:

Reliance of the Traveller and Tools for the Worshipper.
A CLASSIC MANUAL OF ISLAMIC SACRED LAW BY AHMAD IBN
NAQIB AL-MISRI (Died 1368 AD)​

Edited and Translated by Sheik Nuh Ha Mim Keller


Which is Islamic law, Sharia from the Qur'an & Sunnah. This is the law that Muslims believe should rule the world.
​

As you yourself pointed out, the piece of work being quoted was written by Naqib Al Misri... who died in AD 1368... some 700 or so years after Muhammad did. You are quoting lawmakers who lived centuries after Muhammad. That is like quoting Martin Luther as an argument against Christianity.