Moses or Jesus?

[Aussie Pete]

I'm indebted to Juan Carlos Ortiz for much of what I'm about to write. I hope it blesses you as much as it blessed me.

The Church is known by a number of names, one of which is "The Bride of Christ". I'll not go into whether or not all Christians are the Bride or only those who overcome or something similar.

The Old Testament did not forbid polygamy. A man could have several wives. The New Testament states that elders should have one wife, but that was not extended to those not wanting to be elders. However, nowhere does it permit a woman to have more than one husband. I can understand why. What sensible woman would want to put up with two men at the same time?

Paul uses the analogy of marriage when discussing the relationship of the Law of Moses to the Christian. It was a vexed issue in the early church, as it is today for many.

The Law was given for a specific purpose. The people of Israel accepted God's covenant of Law, with the blessing and cursing as incentive to obey and punishment for disobedience. It's worth noting that the covenant of Law was not God's first option.

We read that the Law came through Moses. We read that grace and truth came through the Lord Jesus. Paul paints a picture of the one who is "married" to the Law. The Law is set in stone. There is no mercy or grace in the Law. All mankind is born in a lawless state. God's law applies. There is no mercy and grace, only fearsome judgement. Even those who do not know God's commandments are guilty, they just don't know it.

Before a person can be saved, they must know that they are a sinner. If the law does not convict them, the sermon on the mount surely will as the Holy Spirit takes God's word and touches the conscience of the hearer. Should they accept the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross, they are saved.

Salvation is much more than being forgiven. it is new life. How does that happen? Through the cross and the resurrection. Lord Jesus died, so we die. Lord Jesus rose again, so we rise again. This is surely the most astounding and powerful event that can happen to any human being. We are not given a new set of rules to follow. We are new creations in Christ Jesus.
"Death" is a powerful thing. Who pursues a dead person for a crime? Who would imprison them if they are guilty? Who would buy them a car to drive or a house? It's pointless. So God no longer pursues the sinner for past offences. That person died. They are new creations in Christ.

It is clear from Paul's dissertations on the Law that those who die with Christ also die to the Law. Those who are raised with Christ are raised to a new principle, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. Many Christians have little idea of what this means in practice. It's easy to find a set of rules to follow and do them as best you can. "Walk in the Spirit"? What does that mean? "Deny yourself, carry your cross"? How do you do that? So many go back to what is more straightforward. Read the commandments. Carry them out.

This may be done with good intentions, but it is wrong. It is like a woman with two husbands. She is going back to the old, familiar husband who had a heart of stone. That is the Law that came through Moses. Lord Jesus has His arms wide open, longing to embrace the one He just saved, but she rejects Him. This is a tragedy for the individual who misses God's best, for the Lord Jesus who paid such a price and for the Kingdom of God.

So I will ask a blunt question. Who is your Lord? Moses or the Lord Jesus? To put it another way, who is your husband? Moses or Christ? To choose Moses is spiritual adultery. Yes, learning to walk in the Spirit is harder, but the rewards are out of this world.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It would depend if you were following inward or outward commandments and denials.

 

[Aussie Pete]

It would depend if you were following inward or outward commandments and denials.

Exactly.

 

[Soyeong]

We read that the Law came through Moses. We read that grace and truth came through the Lord Jesus. Paul paints a picture of the one who is "married" to the Law. The Law is set in stone. There is no mercy or grace in the Law. All mankind is born in a lawless state. God's law applies. There is no mercy and grace, only fearsome judgement. Even those who do not know God's commandments are guilty, they just don't know it.

In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.

When two people get married, they get married to each other, but do not get married to the marriage contract itself, so it doesn't make any sense to interpret Paul as speaking about getting married to the law. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage covenant between God and Israel, such as God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:32), or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8). So Israel got married to God and the Mosaic Law is just part of the terms of that marriage covenant, not the object to which they got married.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the law.

We are not given a new set of rules to follow. We are new creations in Christ Jesus.

In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

It is clear from Paul's dissertations on the Law that those who die with Christ also die to the Law. Those who are raised with Christ are raised to a new principle, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. Many Christians have little idea of what this means in practice. It's easy to find a set of rules to follow and do them as best you can. "Walk in the Spirit"? What does that mean? "Deny yourself, carry your cross"? How do you do that? So many go back to what is more straightforward. Read the commandments. Carry them out.

Everything in this passage is speaking in favor of obedience to God's law and against sin:

Romans 6:1-11What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and dying and rising with Jesus does not involve refusing to follow the law that he taught by word and by example and returning to living in sin. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ by contrasting both of them with the law of sin and death. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we m ig ht be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.

This may be done with good intentions, but it is wrong. It is like a woman with two husbands. She is going back to the old, familiar husband who had a heart of stone. That is the Law that came through Moses. Lord Jesus has His arms wide open, longing to embrace the one He just saved, but she rejects Him. This is a tragedy for the individual who misses God's best, for the Lord Jesus who paid such a price and for the Kingdom of God.

In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the women ever set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, and if after the death of her first husband she were to get married to a second husband, then she would once again be bound to the law of marriage, along with obeying all of God's other laws.

So I will ask a blunt question. Who is your Lord? Moses or the Lord Jesus? To put it another way, who is your husband? Moses or Christ? To choose Moses is spiritual adultery. Yes, learning to walk in the Spirit is harder, but the rewards are out of this world.

It is God who gave the law to Moses and Moses played the role of communicating of God's laws to the Israelites, so you're trying to contrasting following the Father as Lord with following Jesus as Lord. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own commands and we do not need to pick between following one or the other. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord. There is not point in confessing Jesus as Lord while refusing to submit to Him as Lord. It is completely absurd to think that we can commit spiritual adultery with Christ by following what Christ spent his ministry teaching us how to do by word and by example. The Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Aussie Pete]

In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.

When two people get married, they get married to each other, but do not get married to the marriage contract itself, so it doesn't make any sense to interpret Paul as speaking about getting married to the law. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage covenant between God and Israel, such as God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:32), or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8). So Israel got married to God and the Mosaic Law is just part of the terms of that marriage covenant, not the object to which they got married.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the law.



In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.



Everything in this passage is speaking in favor of obedience to God's law and against sin:

Romans 6:1-11What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and dying and rising with Jesus does not involve refusing to follow the law that he taught by word and by example and returning to living in sin. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ by contrasting both of them with the law of sin and death. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we m ig ht be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.



In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the women ever set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, and if after the death of her first husband she were to get married to a second husband, then she would once again be bound to the law of marriage, along with obeying all of God's other laws.



It is God who gave the law to Moses and Moses played the role of communicating of God's laws to the Israelites, so you're trying to contrasting following the Father as Lord with following Jesus as Lord. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own commands and we do not need to pick between following one or the other. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord. There is not point in confessing Jesus as Lord while refusing to submit to Him as Lord. It is completely absurd to think that we can commit spiritual adultery with Christ by following what Christ spent his ministry teaching us how to do by word and by example. The Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

It is absurd to think that the Law is God's highest standard for the Christian life. God's standard is not Moses, it is Lord Jesus. Only as we walk in the Spirit will we be found to be pleasing God. We are saved so that we can have new life, not so that we can obey God's written law.

 

[Soyeong]

It is absurd to think that the Law is God's highest standard for the Christian life. God's standard is not Moses, it is Lord Jesus. Only as we walk in the Spirit will we be found to be pleasing God. We are saved so that we can have new life, not so that we can obey God's written law.

The same Father who gave the Mosaic Law to teach how to act in accordance with His nature also sent Jesus as the exact expression of His nature, so there is no difference in standard. Christ expressed God's nature by spending his life teaching obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example and there is nothing absurd about the life of Christ being the standard for the Christian life.

Likewise, the same Father who gave the Mosaic Law as sent the Spirit to lead us in obedience to it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in disobedience to God's law looks like. Everything that Romans 6 says about having a new life is in obedience to God and against sin.

 

[Swan7]

But.... isn’t Love the fulfillment of the Law? Romans 13...??

 

[Dovid / עבד ישוע ...דוד]

So I will ask a blunt question. Who is your Lord? Moses or the Lord Jesus? To put it another way, who is your husband? Moses or Christ? To choose Moses is spiritual adultery. Yes, learning to walk in the Spirit is harder, but the rewards are out of this world.

REV 14:12
Here is the patience of the "Set-Apart" believers, those that keep the commandments & have faith in Yeshua.

Yeshua IS a prophet like unto Moshe DET 18:15

One can't have Yeshua & not Moshe (church system). Or Moshe & not Yeshua (Synagogue system).

If you are to be counted among'st the "Set-Apart" believers, then you need to walk in the "Commandments / Moshe" plus have "Faith / Yeshua"

Just as Yeshua "walked" according to Moshe & was judged sinless. We are also to "walk as Messiah walked" (1-JHN 2:6). If Messiah walked according to Moshe, we also walk according to Moshe in order to be "IN" Messiah.....

 

[Dovid / עבד ישוע ...דוד]

But.... isn’t Love the fulfillment of the Law? Romans 13...??

Does love give you a free ticket to go against the wishes of your husband...?

ROM 03:31
Therefore, are we eliminating The Written Law by faith? (in Yeshua) God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

 

[Dovid / עבד ישוע ...דוד]

It is absurd to think that the Law is God's highest standard for the Christian life. God's standard is not Moses, it is Lord Jesus. Only as we walk in the Spirit will we be found to be pleasing God. We are saved so that we can have new life, not so that we can obey God's written law.

This church dogma is wrong & goes against the words of Messiah Himself.....

MAT 05:17
Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you that until Heaven and earth will pass away, one Yodh or one Taag will not pass away from The Written Law until everything will happen.

Original Jewish context... "Fulfill" = to teach correctly
Altered christian version. "Fulfill" = cancel / revoke

Christian context.......
MAT 05:17 Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to revoke. Amen, I say to you that until Heaven and earth will pass away, many Yodh or Taag will pass away from The Written Law before everything will happen.