LDS Mormons, who is Heavenly Father?

[KevinSim]

That's the crux of Jane_Doe's arguments against Christianity's creeds - that they were created by sinful men and not of God. That's a purely hypocritical position, especially given that the lds bretheren have to vote in any new doctrine.

Every man who ever lived, except for Jesus Christ of course, was sinful in nature. That didn't stop them from doing God's will. It's just another baseless argument from the lds to avoid their hypocrisy of beliefs.

Well, BigDaddy4, I'm LDS too. Do you also believe in the hypocrisy of my beliefs? If so, I'd like to know why you think there's any hypocrisy there.

I personally do not have any problem believing that God inspires sinful men. We're all sinful, and yet from time to time God does choose to reveal things to us. I guess the relevant question is, did God inspire the men that put together Christianity's creeds? God certainly can inspire sinful men, but did He inspire those particular (sinful) men?

 

[Rescued One]

Well, BigDaddy4, I'm LDS too. Do you also believe in the hypocrisy of my beliefs? If so, I'd like to know why you think there's any hypocrisy there.

I personally do not have any problem believing that God inspires sinful men. We're all sinful, and yet from time to time God does choose to reveal things to us. I guess the relevant question is, did God inspire the men that put together Christianity's creeds? God certainly can inspire sinful men, but did He inspire those particular (sinful) men?

Yes, He told them what He had revealed about Himself. Sometimes He inspires scripture; sometimes He brings it to our remembrance.

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1 John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1 Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1 Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1 Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

 

[BigDaddy4]

Well, BigDaddy4, I'm LDS too. Do you also believe in the hypocrisy of my beliefs? If so, I'd like to know why you think there's any hypocrisy there.

I personally do not have any problem believing that God inspires sinful men. We're all sinful, and yet from time to time God does choose to reveal things to us. I guess the relevant question is, did God inspire the men that put together Christianity's creeds? God certainly can inspire sinful men, but did He inspire those particular (sinful) men?

This thread is not about you.

 

[KevinSim]

This thread is not about you.

Ah, so when you said, "It's just another baseless argument from the lds to avoid their hypocrisy of beliefs," you meant, "from some lds," not, "from all lds"?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Ah, so when you said, "It's just another baseless argument from the lds to avoid their hypocrisy of beliefs," you meant, "from some lds," not, "from all lds"?

I don't know you personally or your beliefs. I do know, however, what beliefs are taught by the lds. Whether or not you choose to line up with those beliefs is up to you.

 

[KevinSim]

I don't know you personally or your beliefs. I do know, however, what beliefs are taught by the lds. Whether or not you choose to line up with those beliefs is up to you.

So you think the LDS Church teaches that the creeds are wrong because they were put together by sinful men? I've never heard the LDS Church teach that. I guess it's possible that the LDS Church has taught that without me ever hearing about it. If you could point me to where it teaches that I'd really appreciate it.

 

[BigDaddy4]

So you think the LDS Church teaches that the creeds are wrong because they were put together by sinful men? I've never heard the LDS Church teach that. I guess it's possible that the LDS Church has taught that without me ever hearing about it. If you could point me to where it teaches that I'd really appreciate it.

That's the idea put forth by Jane_Doe on why such creeds are bad. Are you trying to say that those who put the creeds together were not sinners?

 

[fatboys]

That's the idea put forth by Jane_Doe on why such creeds are bad. Are you trying to say that those who put the creeds together were not sinners?

They were sinners and not inspired.

 

[KevinSim]

That's the idea put forth by Jane_Doe on why such creeds are bad. Are you trying to say that those who put the creeds together were not sinners?

No, I'm saying the fact that they were sinners is irrelevant. Everyone sins, so if God is going to reveal His will to humans, He's going to have to reveal it to sinners. So the only real question is whether God did reveal His will to the people who put the creeds together.

 

[BigDaddy4]

They were sinners and not inspired.

Do you have proof they were not inspired? Or is that only your conjecture gleaned from the lds teachings?

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, I'm saying the fact that they were sinners is irrelevant. Everyone sins, so if God is going to reveal His will to humans, He's going to have to reveal it to sinners. So the only real question is whether God did reveal His will to the people who put the creeds together.

I agree that it is irrelevant, which goes to show the hypocrisy of her arguement. I believe God did reveal His will and thus accept the Nicene and Apostles creeds.

 

[KevinSim]

I believe God did reveal His will and thus accept the Nicene and Apostles creeds.

BigDaddy4, why do you believe that?

 

[Rescued One]

deleted by me

 

[BigDaddy4]

BigDaddy4, why do you believe that?

Both creeds line up with what's in the Bible. But before that, Hebrews 11 - "by faith..."

 

[KevinSim]

Both creeds line up with what's in the Bible. But before that, Hebrews 11 - "by faith..."

Why do you believe that God even revealed His will in the Bible? Do you simply have faith that the Bible is telling you the truth about God? If so, then my comment would be that I understand faith in God, faith that God exists and wants us to know His will; I don't understand faith in anything else; in particular, I don't understand faith in the Bible.

 

[fatboys]

Yes, He told them what He had revealed about Himself. Sometimes He inspires scripture; sometimes He brings it to our remembrance.

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1 John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1 Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1 Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1 Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Remembrance?

 

[Rescued One]

Why do you believe that God even revealed His will in the Bible? Do you simply have faith that the Bible is telling you the truth about God? If so, then my comment would be that I understand faith in God, faith that God exists and wants us to know His will; I don't understand faith in anything else; in particular, I don't understand faith in the Bible.

We don't "simply have faith." We have faith because God GAVE us faith. If God wants us to know His will, He tells us His will.

Romans 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

He continues to preserve His word for our benefit.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[KevinSim]

We don't "simply have faith." We have faith because God GAVE us faith. If God wants us to know His will, He tells us His will.

Romans 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

He continues to preserve His word for our benefit.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

How do you know that it was God who gave you faith? How do you know that it wasn't an evil impostor trying to deceive you into believing that he was God that gave you the faith?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I thought I would look at the Nicene Creed and where we differ

*We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

There is nothing in there which says God is a spirit, it does not define the physical nature of God the Father except in this later line about Jesus and his resurrection.

On the third day he rose again.....he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

If one had never heard the terms "immaterial substance" or "incorporeal" you would not assume such a thing but that the Father can sit in a throne with the resurrected Jesus at his right hand, because he has one.


*We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,

This needs to be more defined or else it is false doctrine.

*According to the Bible there are many sons of God; " who among the sons of El/God can be likened unto the Yahweh? Ps 89, "the sons of God saw the daughters of men" Gen 6, "which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3, see also Job 1 & 38. Do I need to go on?

The Bible calls him the firstborn or the beginning

Col 1
15 Who is the image of the unseen God, the firstborn of all creation 9 (I changed that to the Greek intent)

Rev 3:14
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

*The term begotten is specifically used with the mean begotten in the flesh as Adam begat Seth, Gen 5. Jesus is the only begotten Son in the flesh
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

But he is not the only son of the Father.
Heb 2
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels/gods for the suffering of death, ....For it became him, ... in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren..."

*God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,

Yes as the firstborn Son of God and being anointed God by his God I can agree with that statement, Heb 1. The Father shared his glory with the Son;

John 17
" 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

However Jesus said;
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

He considered God to be his Father and God, see John 20

*begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

Are we talking about one personage, the word "being" has a very specific Greek Hellenize meaning?

 

[dzheremi]

I have never seen any version of the Creed which has "of one Being with the Father". Might I ask where you got this translation? Because in the East we say "of one essence" (homoousios in Greek/Coptic), while in the West they tend to say "consubstantial", as this is how the word homoousios was originally translated into Latin.

I do not like "of one being", either.