LDS MORMONS: Heavenly Mom Gets Less Respect

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Mormons often appeal to creation to justify their view of God. IN this thread the creation of mankind in the image of God is used as an argument of a heavenly immortal couple. If however Heavenly Mother(or heavenly Mothers) deserves no recognition in worship as to her participation in this process would this not transfer to the worth of women in the real world?

I kind of admire this patriarchal view of things but even I wouldn't go so far as to say the woman deserves no recognition in the creation of children (considering they bare the burden the hardest).

I suspect things could change within Mormonism should feminism ever become utterly ubiquitous. Mormon women could demand recognition of their heavenly Mother and I don't think it's unwarrented. What baffles me is the silence Heavenly Mother has on the subject. Why hasn't she sent any special revelations? Or like a Muslim woman, does her husband not allow her to speak or something?

 

[He is the way]

Mormons often appeal to creation to justify their view of God. IN this thread the creation of mankind in the image of God is used as an argument of a heavenly immortal couple. If however Heavenly Mother(or heavenly Mothers) deserves no recognition in worship as to her participation in this process would this not transfer to the worth of women in the real world?

I kind of admire this patriarchal view of things but even I wouldn't go so far as to say the woman deserves no recognition in the creation of children (considering they bare the burden the hardest).

I suspect things could change within Mormonism should feminism ever become utterly ubiquitous. Mormon women could demand recognition of their heavenly Mother and I don't think it's unwarrented. What baffles me is the silence Heavenly Mother has on the subject. Why hasn't she sent any special revelations? Or like a Muslim woman, does her husband not allow her to speak or something?

God would not forgive anyone who took the name of His wife in vain. Therefore it is for our own good that her name is not revealed. He will not forgive those who speak against the Holy Ghost either:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:31 - 32)

31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

God would not forgive anyone who took the name of His wife in vain. Therefore it is for our own good that her name is not revealed. He will not forgive those who speak against the Holy Ghost either:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:31 - 32)

31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Then why did he reveal the existence of the holy Spirit? If the point was to keep people out of hell then he should never have allowed the mention of either. Yet now that the divine secret is out why not let people give proper reverence due to one of their creators?

Presumably we were in the spiritual womb of our heavenly Mother for a period of time, taken out of our pre-existence, we were given souls due to her essential part in our creation. It required both divine parties to create us, and we even have the commandment to honour our Mother and Father. Yet the Bible doesn't mention her (Instead God seems to take all the glory and credit) and Mormons are hesitant to even talk about her. Not even Mormons are so protective of their wives in our world, so why should Heavenly Father be?

Is this fulfilling the divine law? That we do not honour heavenly Mother? While we give excessive honour (more than what is deserving) to our heavenly Father? I just find the reasoning flawed. Heavenly Mother is literally a Goddess, why does she need to be hidden?

Perhaps this points to the Patriarchal reality of nature itself within Mormonism. That from eternity past the point of women is to be utterly subject to the man. If God is the best example for Mormons and he hides his wife (wives) perhaps Mormons should try to imitate him? If not now, maybe when they inherit their own worlds to seed with life.

 

[He is the way]

Then why did he reveal the existence of the holy Spirit? If the point was to keep people out of hell then he should never have allowed the mention of either. Yet now that the divine secret is out why not let people give proper reverence due to one of their creators?

Presumably we were in the spiritual womb of our heavenly Mother for a period of time, taken out of our pre-existence, we were given souls due to her essential part in our creation. It required both divine parties to create us, and we even have the commandment to honour our Mother and Father. Yet the Bible doesn't mention her (Instead God seems to take all the glory and credit) and Mormons are hesitant to even talk about her. Not even Mormons are so protective of their wives in our world, so why should Heavenly Father be?

Is this fulfilling the divine law? That we do not honour heavenly Mother? While we give excessive honour (more than what is deserving) to our heavenly Father? I just find the reasoning flawed. Heavenly Mother is literally a Goddess, why does she need to be hidden?

Perhaps this points to the Patriarchal reality of nature itself within Mormonism. That from eternity past the point of women is to be utterly subject to the man. If God is the best example for Mormons and he hides his wife (wives) perhaps Mormons should try to imitate him? If not now, maybe when they inherit their own worlds to seed with life.

He revealed the existence of the Holy Spirit so we would better understand His purpose and by what means we receive baptism. The divine secret is no longer a secret, but God is very protective of His wife and rightfully so. Not only is He protecting Her, but He is also protecting us. We do NOT give excessive honor to God. If anything we do not honor Him enough. God is much more intelligent than us and He does have His reasons and purposes. We will give Her the honor She deserves.

 

[drstevej]

Is Heavenly Mom fully God as are the Father and Son?

• Yes
• No

Chose one.

Do you worship Heavenly Mom?

• Yes
• No

Chose one.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

He revealed the existence of the Holy Spirit so we would better understand His purpose and by what means we receive baptism. The divine secret is no longer a secret, but God is very protective of His wife and rightfully so. Not only is He protecting Her, but He is also protecting us. We do NOT give excessive honor to God. If anything we do not honor Him enough. God is much more intelligent than us and He does have His reasons and purposes. We will give Her the honor She deserves.

One would necessarily ask why Heavenly Father is more protective of his wife than his spirit. This would indicate that there is something he values in his female companion(s) more than the Spirit.

I still disagree that you give adequate acknowledgement of her part in creation and that your heavenly Father is given too much honour. He, by himself, would have been unable to create spirits. It makes no sense to me to deprive heavenly Mother of acknowledgment via worship and if it's permissible to not worship Heavenly Mother is the same true of Heavenly Father? That we don't have to worship him for creating us (or drawing us out of our eternal intellectual existence)?

I am curious about your perspective however. Does Heavenly Mother (or Mothers) have no will of her own and is entirely subjugated will of the Father in all things? Does this at all reflect on relations between men and women in our world and set an ideal standard for Mormon relationships today? That of utter subservience to the Husband?

 

[He is the way]

One would necessarily ask why Heavenly Father is more protective of his wife than his spirit. This would indicate that there is something he values in his female companion(s) more than the Spirit.

I still disagree that you give adequate acknowledgement of her part in creation and that your heavenly Father is given too much honour. He, by himself, would have been unable to create spirits. It makes no sense to me to deprive heavenly Mother of acknowledgment via worship and if it's permissible to not worship Heavenly Mother is the same true of Heavenly Father? That we don't have to worship him for creating us (or drawing us out of our eternal intellectual existence)?

I am curious about your perspective however. Does Heavenly Mother (or Mothers) have no will of her own and is entirely subjugated will of the Father in all things? Does this at all reflect on relations between men and women in our world and set an ideal standard for Mormon relationships today? That of utter subservience to the Husband?

We are commanded to LOVE God with ALL of our heart, soul, and might:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Women have just as much agency as men do. They are free to choose and love whoever they please.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

We are commanded to LOVE God with ALL of our heart, soul, and might:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Women have just as much agency as men do. They are free to choose and love whoever they please.

I still see a problem of God seeking too much worship. Why does Heavenly Father deserve such devotion and dedication and yet heavenly Mother, for all her essential work in bearing countless human souls deserve none? You say you honour her appropriately, but that seems untrue, given how much honour you give to Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father is not all powerful, he is limited in that he requires a spouse (or perhaps not even a spouse but just a Goddess or woman) to create a human spirit from the eternal intelligence we all are. God should have said we should love the all the Lords, our Gods, with all our heart mind and strength. Not just him alone. I count at least four gods in Mormonism that deserve such love (including Heavenly Mother, though there is the room potentially limitless spouses Heavenly Father has).

Now if women have as much agency I would wonder about Heavenly Mother's agency. Could she send a Prophetess to reveal herself to Mormons and would you be bound to accept such a revelation? Now if she can't this would imply she lacks the agency her husband has and would have to go through his Prophets in order to be revealed. This clearly would imply some form of subordination. An inferiority of the woman even when they have achieved Godhood. This would naturally reflect on the nature of women in our world.

I'm not against Patriarchary necessarily. The man naturally has a lead role in the husband wife relationship, yet this seems to be a consequence of the fall and not a result of some eternal objective standard and female and male gods.

 

[He is the way]

I still see a problem of God seeking too much worship. Why does Heavenly Father deserve such devotion and dedication and yet heavenly Mother, for all her essential work in bearing countless human souls deserve none? You say you honour her appropriately, but that seems untrue, given how much honour you give to Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father is not all powerful, he is limited in that he requires a spouse (or perhaps not even a spouse but just a Goddess or woman) to create a human spirit from the eternal intelligence we all are. God should have said we should love the all the Lords, our Gods, with all our heart mind and strength. Not just him alone. I count at least four gods in Mormonism that deserve such love (including Heavenly Mother, though there is the room potentially limitless spouses Heavenly Father has).

Now if women have as much agency I would wonder about Heavenly Mother's agency. Could she send a Prophetess to reveal herself to Mormons and would you be bound to accept such a revelation? Now if she can't this would imply she lacks the agency her husband has and would have to go through his Prophets in order to be revealed. This clearly would imply some form of subordination. An inferiority of the woman even when they have achieved Godhood. This would naturally reflect on the nature of women in our world.

I'm not against Patriarchary necessarily. The man naturally has a lead role in the husband wife relationship, yet this seems to be a consequence of the fall and not a result of some eternal objective standard and female and male gods.

The essential part of a relationship is LOVE. God is our Father and as such He deserves our LOVE, dedication, and devotion. We have the opportunity to show our LOVE, respect, and devotion to Him and the Lord Jesus Christ through our service to His other children. Jesus said:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

That is a very powerful statement. I believe that this would also include the women in our lives. Women are NOT subservient to us, they are our equals and should be treated as such. In many cases they are not our equals but greater than us. Like I said God does have a purpose in what He does.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The essential part of a relationship is LOVE. God is our Father and as such He deserves our LOVE, dedication, and devotion. We have the opportunity to show our LOVE, respect, and devotion to Him and the Lord Jesus Christ through our service to His other children. Jesus said:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

That is a very powerful statement. I believe that this would also include the women in our lives. Women are NOT subservient to us, they are our equals and should be treated as such. In many cases they are not our equals but greater than us. Like I said God does have a purpose in what He does.

So our Heavenly Mother (Or Mothers) is not subject to the will of her Husband in all things?

If also love is the most essential thing and we demonstrate our love for Heavenly Father via worship to him, why should Heavenly Mother be deprived likewise of this love? Especially, if as you say, she is equal with her Husband?

This get's back to my original point. if the Love Mormons show for Heavenly Mother is sufficient for her (no worship of her, just a recognition of her existence) why does Heavenly Father demand such things? Why does he demand a greater love than is expected of his wife?

 

[He is the way]

So our Heavenly Mother (Or Mothers) is not subject to the will of her Husband in all things?

If also love is the most essential thing and we demonstrate our love for Heavenly Father via worship to him, why should Heavenly Mother be deprived likewise of this love? Especially, if as you say, she is equal with her Husband?

This get's back to my original point. if the Love Mormons show for Heavenly Mother is sufficient for her (no worship of her, just a recognition of her existence) why does Heavenly Father demand such things? Why does he demand a greater love than is expected of his wife?

Why are you asking me and not Him? I don't have all of the answers, but He does.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Why are you asking me and not Him? I don't have all of the answers, but He does.

Well, you started this conversation when you responded to my claims about Heavenly Mother. I'm only postulating from what Mormons believe that there is an inconsistency that ought to be addressed. It seems either Heavenly Mother doesn't need to be worshiped because she is inferior and subordinate to her husband or she deserves worship and there is no real justification for not worshiping your creator with the same respect you give to your other male creator.

I think even you know it's a weak argument to invoke: "Why don't you pray over the book of Mormon about it. God will reveal it in your heart!" I don't believe in your God. He is like Zeus or Thor to me, a flawed divinity, fundamentally human in design and limitation, which cannot compare to the glory that is the God of the Christian Church.

 

[He is the way]

Well, you started this conversation when you responded to my claims about Heavenly Mother. I'm only postulating from what Mormons believe that there is an inconsistency that ought to be addressed. It seems either Heavenly Mother doesn't need to be worshiped because she is inferior and subordinate to her husband or she deserves worship and there is no real justification for not worshiping your creator with the same respect you give to your other male creator.

I think even you know it's a weak argument to invoke: "Why don't you pray over the book of Mormon about it. God will reveal it in your heart!" I don't believe in your God. He is like Zeus or Thor to me, a flawed divinity, fundamentally human in design and limitation, which cannot compare to the glory that is the God of the Christian Church.

To you it is an inconsistency, but to me it makes perfect sense. There is a reason God is called the Father. It is because He has a Wife. Eve is in her mother's image. The Bible agrees:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[drstevej]

to me it makes perfect sense. There is a reason God is called the Father. It is because He has a Wife.

Is Heavenly Mom fully God as are the Father and Son?

• Yes
• No

Chose one.

Do you worship Heavenly Mom?

• Yes
• No

Chose one.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

To you it is an inconsistency, but to me it makes perfect sense. There is a reason God is called the Father. It is because He has a Wife. Eve is in her mother's image. The Bible agrees:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The Mormon interpretation brings out too many problems. Are women at all in the image of Heavenly Father? If not then why are women bound to worship Heavenly Father when they should worship their heavenly Mother who is the prototype of all feminity and women everywhere?

But your going to be stretching to read into Genesis a divine couple when I could (and do) read into Genesis a foreshadowing of the Trinity. Thus the language of 'us' and 'our' doesn't render this verse any differently than it's been considered within Christendom since the begining.

Yet it seems we're going around in circles. None of what you've written addresses my concerns of what seem to naturally follow from Mormon theology regarding Heavenly Mother. That you try to justify not worshiping her (despite her essential part in your creation) leave's me to consider why do Mormons have to even worship Heavenly Father to achieve divinisation? If worship of the one is necessary, while the other can be mostly ignored or only merely recognized, then this implies inferiority.

You object to the Idea, by saying that Heavenly Father is protecting his wife, but from what exactly? Is a Goddess unable to handle criticism? Is she so fragile?

 

[dzheremi]

That's what they have said to me in the past on this board, Ignatius. You might want to review this thread, which gets pretty interesting with regard to defenses of the Mormon heavenly mother by about page 5 (I didn't re-read the whole thing, but there are definitely some posts that talk about the Heavenly Mother and Father in just the way you're asking about.)

 

[He is the way]

The Mormon interpretation brings out too many problems. Are women at all in the image of Heavenly Father? If not then why are women bound to worship Heavenly Father when they should worship their heavenly Mother who is the prototype of all feminity and women everywhere?

But your going to be stretching to read into Genesis a divine couple when I could (and do) read into Genesis a foreshadowing of the Trinity. Thus the language of 'us' and 'our' doesn't render this verse any differently than it's been considered within Christendom since the begining.

Yet it seems we're going around in circles. None of what you've written addresses my concerns of what seem to naturally follow from Mormon theology regarding Heavenly Mother. That you try to justify not worshiping her (despite her essential part in your creation) leave's me to consider why do Mormons have to even worship Heavenly Father to achieve divinisation? If worship of the one is necessary, while the other can be mostly ignored or only merely recognized, then this implies inferiority.

You object to the Idea, by saying that Heavenly Father is protecting his wife, but from what exactly? Is a Goddess unable to handle criticism? Is she so fragile?

God will not allow His wife to be criticized nor should He allow it. There are people who disrespect Him due to their own stupidity.

 

[Rescued One]

Years ago here on CF I bemoaned the fact that Mormon women have less to look forward to in the Celestial Kingdom than their husbands. Their "spirit children" are sent to an earth and allowed only to communicate with the Father. A rather rude Mormon called me a femi-Nazi. It was so ironic! I was actually a SAHM who loved being with my children.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons often appeal to creation to justify their view of God. IN this thread the creation of mankind in the image of God is used as an argument of a heavenly immortal couple. If however Heavenly Mother(or heavenly Mothers) deserves no recognition in worship as to her participation in this process would this not transfer to the worth of women in the real world?

I kind of admire this patriarchal view of things but even I wouldn't go so far as to say the woman deserves no recognition in the creation of children (considering they bare the burden the hardest).

I suspect things could change within Mormonism should feminism ever become utterly ubiquitous. Mormon women could demand recognition of their heavenly Mother and I don't think it's unwarrented. What baffles me is the silence Heavenly Mother has on the subject. Why hasn't she sent any special revelations? Or like a Muslim woman, does her husband not allow her to speak or something?

Mormon women have been excomunicated for advocating permission to pray to their "Heavenly Mother." I never advocated that.

 

[Rescued One]

Poor Mormon Heavenly Mom. No Mormons here want to defend her equality with Heavenly Dad.

I wonder if this doesn't inflect upon and impact the Mormon view of marriage?

A few of the LDS women I knew thought they had sinned because they responded negatively to their husband's criticism. Prior to 1990 LDS women who had their endowments were required to vow to obey their husbands.

Wives No Longer Vow Obedience to Husbands in Mormon Ceremony