LDS Mormon Jesus Versus Christian Jesus

[drstevej]

He could not be fully God until he went through the same process that his God and his Father went through.

So Godhood is a merit badge.

 

[Christian Apologist]

I prefer the KJV rendering:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 11)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


We know that the Father is Father and the God of Jesus:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I prefer the Amplified Version, even thou there both accurate. Why would you not like the amplified ?

 

[Christian Apologist]

He could not be fully God until he went through the same process that his God and his Father went through.

How many of these verses in The Book of Mormon teach Jesus was fully God before he was conceived in Mary's womb ? and what is the meaning of Omnipotent

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;


2 Nephi 11

7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.


2 Nephi 25: 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.



3 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.


3 Nephi 17:

10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears.


Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.


3 Nephi 19:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.


Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.


2 Nephi 10:3

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.


2 Nephi 25:29

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

 

[Peter1000]

So Godhood is a merit badge.

Not a merit badge, but a process. Learning obedience (Hebrews 5:8), completing his mission to be perfect (Luke 13:32, Hebrews 2:10) so he could then make us perfect like him (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[Christian Apologist]

Not a merit badge, but a process. Learning obedience (Hebrews 5:8), completing his mission to be perfect (Luke 13:32, Hebrews 2:10) so he could then make us perfect like him (Hebrews 5:9).

So Jesus wasn't perfect or Jehovah God before incarnation ?

 

[He is the way]

I prefer the Amplified Version, even thou there both accurate. Why would you not like the amplified ?

We should be of the same mind as Jesus Christ therefore it is not robbery to be equal to God.

 

[He is the way]

So Jesus wasn't perfect or Jehovah God before incarnation ?

Jesus was not perfect before He died. He even said so:
(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

 

[Christian Apologist]

We should be of the same mind as Jesus Christ therefore it is not robbery to be equal to God.

Looks like you miss quoted that verse

 

[Christian Apologist]

We should be of the same mind as Jesus Christ therefore it is not robbery to be equal to God.

Why would Jesus to rob something he retained before his incarnation ?

 

[He is the way]

Looks like you miss quoted that verse

Not much:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Why would Jesus to rob something he retained before his incarnation ?

It was not robbery, it was becoming like His Father.

 

[Peter1000]

Why would Jesus to rob something he retained before his incarnation ?

Because at that point he was a God, but was not equal to his God and Father (John 20:17)

He was not equal until after his death on the cross and his resurrection and exaltation. Then he sat down at the right side of God and was a God himself.

 

[Christian Apologist]

Because at that point he was a God, but was not equal to his God and Father (John 20:17)

He was not equal until after his death on the cross and his resurrection and exaltation. Then he sat down at the right side of God and was a God himself.

Wasn't Jesus Jehovah God before he became the Son ?

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

 

[Christian Apologist]

View attachment 256245

Mormons claim another Jesus not found in the Bible or even the Book of Mormon​

The Truth about Mormonism: The Jesus of the Bible and the Creeds

 

[Peter1000]

Wasn't Jesus Jehovah God before he became the Son ?

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

Yes, Jesus was Yahweh/Jehovah, the God of the OT. The problem is that he was not in his fully God form (he was only in a spirit form), and he had not experienced his earth ministry to be fully God.

When he was born of Mary, he obtained his body of flesh, and when he was crucified on the cross and then resurrected in a perfected body of flesh and bone, he had gone through the right process to finally be exalted and was then able to sit down on the right hand of his God and Father (John 20:17) and in this form he was now fully equal to God his Father.

 

[Peter1000]

Mormons claim another Jesus not found in the Bible or even the Book of Mormon​

The Truth about Mormonism: The Jesus of the Bible and the Creeds

We claim the Jesus of the bible, you claim the Jesus of the Nicean council. They are the same Jesus, but they are described differently.

 

[Christian Apologist]

Yes, Jesus was Yahweh/Jehovah, the God of the OT. The problem is that he was not in his fully God form (he was only in a spirit form), and he had not experienced his earth ministry to be fully God.

When he was born of Mary, he obtained his body of flesh, and when he was crucified on the cross and then resurrected in a perfected body of flesh and bone, he had gone through the right process to finally be exalted and was then able to sit down on the right hand of his God and Father (John 20:17) and in this form he was now fully equal to God his Father.

So your saying the Holy Spirit is not fully God since he has not followed that process ? The Book of Mormon completely disagrees, notice how the Book of Mormon and D&C place them in equal status

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

 

[Christian Apologist]

We claim the Jesus of the bible, you claim the Jesus of the Nicean council. They are the same Jesus, but they are described differently.

What does the Nicean council say about Jesus you object to ?​

 

[Christian Apologist]

Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

"The Gods who dwell in the Heaven...have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state....they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever." (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)


Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613-614,... Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.

“God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)

It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334

“The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (Apostle Bruce McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64).


Doctrine and Covenant’s 132:

20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

If Mormons deny Adam is God, do they deny Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are gods ?​

 

[He is the way]

What does the Nicean council say about Jesus you object to ?​

View attachment 256671

Is Jesus really of the same substance as the Father? If the creed was correct, why was it changed?

 

[Christian Apologist]

Is Jesus really of the same substance as the Father? If the creed was correct, why was it changed?

Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

The Book of Mormon even teaches that

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.



Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.





Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.



The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris



1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.



Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.