LDS Mormon Holy Ghost?

[ViaCrucis]

mmmm

Heb 11
27 By faith he (Moses) forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

I do not understand Greek at all however I think in this case Strongs is translating this to fit their prior assumptions about the Trinity doctrine concept rather than how it was intended.

From ἄλφα (G1) (as a negative particle)
first letter of Greek alphabet,

where does the negative particle come in?

and ὁρατός (G3707)
ὁρατός horatós, hor-at-os'; from G3708; gazed at, i.e. (by implication) capable of being seen:—visible.

I found an on line book by Jerry L Sumney who is a professor at at Lexington Theological Seminary. Even though he is working within the bases of the Trinity Doctrine he says it may mean Unseen or unseeable however he agrees with me that the NT intention is 'unseen' based on the knowledge that in the Old Testament man did see God.

Colossians: A Commentary page 63-64


//books.google.com/books?id=5zbD-qWE_AsC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=aoratos+means+unseen&source=bl&ots=R4RjldRuz9&sig=A1I7kkgpGMPX2sfsmtdLA9XtibQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd9eW5p_nVAhXo1IMKHXY8DFoQ6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=aoratos%20means%20unseen&f=false

Based on your link Sumney thinks treating the use of ἀόρατος in Colossians 1:15 as talking about a divine attribute is perhaps too strong and regards that the intent of the passages in relation to Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is to focus on the Christological: Christ is the means and agency through which God makes Godself known to the world. Sumney's reservations here don't a smoking gun make.

And the negative particle comes in here: ἀόρατος. ἀ + όρατος.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[withwonderingawe]

It's these kind of question which makes us wonder how much of Mormonism you really understood before you decided to leave. These are so basic I just assume you already know the answer. (that's not 'flaming' just a puzzling observation)

It doesn't imply that your lower in rank god resides with your "Heavenly Father" god

Lower in rank as a Son to Father? Jesus said the Father is greater than I and he can do nothing but what the Father tells him. You can not apply man's concept of a power struggle to the Godhead which has perfect love between each other. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit act as agents of the Father, they have bowed their will to the Father's will.

Your lesson manuals say that if you become exalted, you will dwell with your "Heavenly Father and Jesus."

Before I came here I lived with my Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom as an innocent spirit. The Holy Ghost has not become a mortal man who sins He is still in his 'first estate' so He can remain in the presence of God and in the Celestial Kingdom.

Abraham 3
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God (Jesus), and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man/Jesus: Here am I, send me. And another answered/Satan and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

In Job 38 we are told that at the foundation of the world " ...the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" The Morning Stars are both Jesus and Lucifer. The name Lucifer means morning star but in Isa 14 we know he desired to put his throne above the stars of God, or the rest of us and take the glory of God unto himself.

So Satan lost his first estate and will never receive a physical body.

However The Holy Spirit still has his first estate and dwells in the presences of God the Father. The question is will he ever receive a body? We don't know, does he retain his spirit only position in the Godhead? Perhaps this is the sacrifice He has given as Jesus gave his body for us.

On the other hand will he receive a body and go on to form a new Godhead with his own sons and daughters? We believe there are worlds without end and new worlds coming into beings all the time. Each needs a Savior and a Holy Spirit, how this all comes together is beyond our knowledge at this time.

 

[BigDaddy4]

We really do not know a lot about the Holy Ghost. He is a separate being from the Father and he is a being of spirit only. We assume He is another spirit Son of God the Father but there are a few feminist who have ask why a man? Will He ever have a physical body? We don't know. I have some ponderings and but they are not Gospel doctrine and just my own beliefs. He does presided over the Telestial Kingdom but that does not mean he doesn't live in the Celestial Kingdom with God the Father.

So he goes home to the Celestial Kingdom at night when he's done with his Telestial Kingdom presiding duties? How does that work - presiding over one kingdom while living in another kingdom?

 

[withwonderingawe]

So he goes home to the Celestial Kingdom at night when he's done with his Telestial Kingdom presiding duties? How does that work - presiding over one kingdom while living in another kingdom?

Since He knows all at all times He doesn't really have to be there.

I think you're making his harder than it has to be.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Since He knows all at all times He doesn't really have to be there.

I think you're making his harder than it has to be.

Well, I am going by what you've said, so that does make it harder than it needs to be.

 

[Rescued One]

It's these kind of question which makes us wonder how much of Mormonism you really understood before you decided to leave. These are so basic I just assume you already know the answer. (that's not 'flaming' just a puzzling observation)

You haven't given us any official doctrine as an answer to where the Mormon Holy Ghost will reside. You absolutely are flaming because you don't understand the topic anymore than any other Mormon. Why are you resorting to criticism of my not having an answer when you don't have an answer either? What happened to the Golden Rule or Ephesians 4:32?

Lower in rank as a Son to Father? Jesus said the Father is greater than I and he can do nothing but what the Father tells him. You can not apply man's concept of a power struggle to the Godhead which has perfect love between each other. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit act as agents of the Father, they have bowed their will to the Father's will.

I said NOTHING about a power struggle. Those who are lower in rank in the military don't overpower the generals.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).

The Bible does not say that there is a heirarchy in the Godhead.

Before I came here I lived with my Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom as an innocent spirit. The Holy Ghost has not become a mortal man who sins He is still in his 'first estate' so He can remain in the presence of God and in the Celestial Kingdom.

Mormonism teaches that people in pre-mortality have free will and are free to sin or obey: Satan and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out. Those who weren't cast out still have the opportunity to sin or obey. Lets go a step further --- who says the Holy Ghost will be stuck in his first estate throughout eternity? So now you quote the Pearl of Great Price which doesn't answer the question either --- it's a rabbit trail:

Abraham 3
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God (Jesus), and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man/Jesus: Here am I, send me. And another answered/Satan and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

In Job 38 we are told that at the foundation of the world " ...the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" The Morning Stars are both Jesus and Lucifer. The name Lucifer means morning star but in Isa 14 we know he desired to put his throne above the stars of God, or the rest of us and take the glory of God unto himself.

So Satan lost his first estate and will never receive a physical body.

However The Holy Spirit still has his first estate and dwells in the presences of God the Father. The question is will he ever receive a body? We don't know, does he retain his spirit only position in the Godhead? Perhaps this is the sacrifice He has given as Jesus gave his body for us.

On the other hand will he receive a body and go on to form a new Godhead with his own sons and daughters? We believe there are worlds without end and new worlds coming into beings all the time. Each needs a Savior and a Holy Spirit, how this all comes together is beyond our knowledge at this time.

See, all you can do is speculate and pretend that I didn't read the "scriptures" before leaving Mormonism.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The Bible does not say that there is a heirarchy in the Godhead.

Yes it does and I quoted those passages for you.

who says the Holy Ghost will be stuck in his first estate throughout eternity?

You are using the word stuck, the fact that he is call God and is part of the Godhead proves he has not sinned. Why would you think he had?

Yes we see though a glass darkly

 

[Rescued One]

Yes it does and I quoted those passages for you.

There is no verse that says so. Jesus lowered Himself to become a man. While mortal, he was lower than the Father. Jesus never claimed to be greater than the Holy Spirit.

You are using the word stuck, the fact that he is call God and is part of the Godhead proves he has not sinned. Why would you think he had?

Yes we see though a glass darkly

I did not say he had sinned. You aren't paying attention. I said that there is free will (per Mormonism) in the Mormon heavens including the CK. That leaves the opportunity to make right and wrong choices.

I used the word stuck because you don't know if he will receive a body. If he doesn't, he's stuck in his first estate.

However The Holy Spirit still has his first estate and dwells in the presences of God the Father. The question is will he ever receive a body? We don't know, does he retain his spirit only position in the Godhead? Perhaps this is the sacrifice He has given as Jesus gave his body for us.

 

[Rescued One]

So he goes home to the Celestial Kingdom at night when he's done with his Telestial Kingdom presiding duties? How does that work - presiding over one kingdom while living in another kingdom?

I don't know where she found the word preside.
http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/PDF/Quotes/Telestial.pdf

"Yet, through his abundant mercy, the Lord will do for all the best that can be done, and therefore he will give to all a place somewhere--if not within the gates of the Holy City, then it must be on the outside--where those who are not entitled to the fulness of blessings may be ministered to by those who have greater glory. For we read also here in this vision, where the glories are spoken of, that those who dwell in the celestial kingdom shall minister unto those of the terrestrial kingdom; those in the terrestrial kingdom shall minister to those of the telestial kingdom.

"The Son may go to the terrestrial, but they who enter into that kingdom shall not receive the fulness of the Father; they will not see the greatness of his glory. He withholds that from them. They never come back again into the fulness of his presence. Those who enter into the telestial kingdom will not receive the fulness of the Father or of the Son. They will not visit there but will send messengers to visit the inhabitants of that glory and instruct them.

"Those in the terrestrial kingdom shall visit those in the telestial kingdom, and those of the celestial shall visit those in the terrestrial kingdom. Where the Father is these cannot come, for the Lord has said: 'Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.' Yet in this very same section it is written that notwithstanding this fact, so great shall be the blessings that come to those who enter there that it is beyond our comprehension. Such is the great mercy of the Lord. He will endeavor to save all his children and exalt as many as he possibly can. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:5)"
They Will be Ministered to by Celestial and Will Minister to Telestial

 

[Peter1000]

Because Scripture says God is invisible.

So here is your opening statement, and then you give us a list of scriptures that supposedly supports that statement. But one of them support that fact that God has been seen, which refutes your opening statement.

Can you guess which scripture you used that refutes your opening statement?

From this scripture that you presented, I say God is unseen, not that He cannot be seen, but He chooses to not be seen, unless certain circumstances arise, then He will show Himself.

 

[Peter1000]

Therefore, what we can say is that "God's right hand" refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is "sitting" refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ's enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more.
Why does Scripture emphasize the right hand of God?

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 5. - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus; literally, according to the reading of the best manuscripts, mind this in you which was also (minded) in Christ Jesus. Many manuscripts take the words "every man" (ἕκαστοι) of Ver. 4 with Ver. 5: "All of you mind this." The words, "in Christ Jesus," show that the corresponding words, "in you," cannot mean "among you," but in yourselves, in your heart. The apostle refers us to the supreme example of unselfishness and humility, the Lord Jesus Christ. He bids us mind (comp. Romans 8:5) the things which the Lord Jesus minded, to love what he loved, to hate what he hated; the thoughts, desires, motives, of the Christian should be the thoughts, desires, motives, which filled the sacred heart of Jesus Christ our Lord. We must strive to imitate him, to reproduce his image, not only in the outward, but even in the inner life. Especially here we are bidden to follow his unselfishness and humility.
Philippians 2 Pulpit Commentary

We will be like Him in holiness, not in appearance. We will be like Him, not we will look like Him.

Most of this post is Mormonism 101. So thank you for that.

The only exception is your back breaking desire to explain away 'the right hand of God' verbiage.

It is for sure that Jesus is the right arm of God the Father and His Messiah.
It is for sure that Jesus is 'sitting' because his work has been accomplished.
But you cannot brush aside the literal thought that Jesus is at this time, sitting on the right hand of God, which means that They are sitting next to each other, just as Stephen saw them standing next to each other. The scriptures make it quite simple to understand.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So here is your opening statement, and then you give us a list of scriptures that supposedly supports that statement. But one of them support that fact that God has been seen, which refutes your opening statement.

Can you guess which scripture you used that refutes your opening statement?

From this scripture that you presented, I say God is unseen, not that He cannot be seen, but He chooses to not be seen, unless certain circumstances arise, then He will show Himself.

You may want to check out post 35, I would merely be repeating myself here otherwise.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter1000]

I don't know where she found the word preside.
http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/PDF/Quotes/Telestial.pdf

"Yet, through his abundant mercy, the Lord will do for all the best that can be done, and therefore he will give to all a place somewhere--if not within the gates of the Holy City, then it must be on the outside--where those who are not entitled to the fulness of blessings may be ministered to by those who have greater glory. For we read also here in this vision, where the glories are spoken of, that those who dwell in the celestial kingdom shall minister unto those of the terrestrial kingdom; those in the terrestrial kingdom shall minister to those of the telestial kingdom.

"The Son may go to the terrestrial, but they who enter into that kingdom shall not receive the fulness of the Father; they will not see the greatness of his glory. He withholds that from them. They never come back again into the fulness of his presence. Those who enter into the telestial kingdom will not receive the fulness of the Father or of the Son. They will not visit there but will send messengers to visit the inhabitants of that glory and instruct them.

"Those in the terrestrial kingdom shall visit those in the telestial kingdom, and those of the celestial shall visit those in the terrestrial kingdom. Where the Father is these cannot come, for the Lord has said: 'Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.' Yet in this very same section it is written that notwithstanding this fact, so great shall be the blessings that come to those who enter there that it is beyond our comprehension. Such is the great mercy of the Lord. He will endeavor to save all his children and exalt as many as he possibly can. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:5)"
They Will be Ministered to by Celestial and Will Minister to Telestial

This is again, right on target. Thanks for your post.

 

[Peter1000]

No, it means unseeable, ἀόρατος is an adjective meaning "unable to be seen", from the negative prefix ἀ- and the verb ὁράω "to see", constructed in the adjective with the -ος declension; "unseeable", in ordinary English we use the Latin-derived invisible.

You are bending over backwards to make the point that God cannot be seen.
Using the Greek and the Latin and English, I bet I can prove just about anything I want out of the scriptures. You have just shown us a perfect example of that process.

But now just read the scripture that you provided and see if it sustains or refutes what you say here in post 35?
Hebrews 11:27
"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen."

This is straight forward. Moses left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king, for he endured, because Moses saw Him who is unseen.

Who is 'Him who is unseen'???

The bible says that Moses saw 'Him who is unseen'.

Therefore the LDS doctrine is justified by scripture. God is not invisible in that He 'cannot be seen'. But God is invisible only because 'He chooses to not be seen'. Unless the circumstances necessitate Him showing Himself, as in this case with Moses, and when Stephen was being killed by the Jews 1400 years later.

 

[Rescued One]

Where will the Mormon "holy ghost" spend eternity? Temple marriage is a requirement for eternal life according to the Doctrine and Covenants (section 132). Is the Mormon "holy ghost" married?

D&C 132
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

 

[fatboys]

Where will the Mormon "holy ghost" spend eternity? Temple marriage is a requirement for eternal life according to the Doctrine and Covenants (section 132). Is the Mormon "holy ghost" married?

D&C 132
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

You anwered your own question

 

[Rescued One]

You anwered your own question

Ni, I didn't and you apparently don't know.