LDS Mormon "Gods"

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Joseph Smith taught:

"Some say I do not interpret the scriptures the same as they do. They say it means the heathen's gods. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness from the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text."
Sermon by Joseph Smith, Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 371

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dzheremi

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More Gnostic-type nonsense. "I have knowledge from/of God, but I'm not gonna tell you."

Really? Then I say put up or shut up, if you claim to be a prophet. Based on what Joseph Smith produced of his claimed 'revelation', when he and that material is judged according to the standard set by the faith which was once delivered to the saints, the falsity and false witness present in it are glaringly obvious.
 
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Rescued One

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God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things.
He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
God the Father

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).
Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74

D. God is the Supreme Being in the universe.
1. God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians 4:6; John 10:29).
2. As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40; 20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2; Luke 4:8).
3. God created all things through His Son (see Hebrews 1:1–2; Moses 1:32–33; 2:1).

E. The Father presides over the Godhead.
1. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the members of the Godhead (see Articles of Faith 1:1; 1 John 5:7; Alma 11:44).
2. Each member of the Godhead is physically separate and distinct from the others (see D&C 130:22; Matthew 3:16–17; Acts 7:55–56).
3. The members of the Godhead are united in Their attributes, power, and purpose (see John 17:20–21; D&C 20:28; 35:2; 2 Nephi 31:21; 3 Nephi 11:27).
4. The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead (see John 14:26, 28, 31; 2 Nephi 31:7, 12; 3 Nephi 28:11).
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 1986, p. 6

**********************************************************
■ “Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. . . .
“Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God’ . . . , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fulness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities.
Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 319).
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 1986, p. 8
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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And if anyone cares, LDS believe in *ONE* God consisting of multiple persons.
So Mormons don't distinguish between the substance/essence/being of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

As to the passage by Joseph Smith. That he explicitly tells us that Paul is not referring to Heathen gods but apparently beings whom are not necessarily evil or heathen would seem to butcher Paul's meaning. Paul in referring to many gods and many lords is referring to the ties people all across the world have to their own particular gods, he isn't saying this independent of that pagan context of eating meat dedicated to idols (If he is referring to Corinthians 8:5). Paul even calls them "so-called gods." For Joseph's Smiths interpretation to be correct we have to deliberately read into the text something Paul did not intend.
 
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dzheremi

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Mormons do not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios (of the same essence). Either user ironhold has mistyped when claiming that the Mormons believe that are of the same essence and nature in post #6, or Jane Doe (a Mormon) has not told the truth regarding LDS theology, and the LDS church's official website "Mormon Newsroom" (and LDS.org itself) is also incorrect.

Or (and this is what I prefer to believe) Mormons are once again using Christian theological vocabulary for their own non-Christian purposes.

I'm only pointing this out because this happens so often in theological discussions with Mormons. "We believe in ONE God, just like other Christians! Welllll, except..."

These 'exceptions' that Mormonism wants to claim for itself while abusing Christian vocabulary are precisely what makes Mormonism not Christian. Don't be fooled by the twisting of vocabulary away from its traditional, commonly-held Christian definition.
 
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Mormon scripture:
Pearl of Great Price, Abraham
Chapter 4

The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.

Chapter 5
The Gods finish Their planning of the creation of all things—They bring to pass the Creation according to Their plans—Adam names every living creature.

Abraham


Doctrine and Covenants 132
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods;
21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing plural marriage are set forth.


19 ....
and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

Doctrine and Covenants 132
 
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DW1980

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Hi

Can I ask the Mormons here to clarify two things - what the LDS Church teaches on this, and what they personally believe? Some of this is confusing to me. The quotes from LDS teachings suggest polytheism or henotheism, yet lots of what has been posted sounds Trinitarian for example:

And if anyone cares, LDS believe in *ONE* God consisting of multiple persons.

Jane - I know from other discussions you mean only Father, Son and Holy Spirit when you say "multiple persons", right?

You do realize that Mormons are non-Trinitarians?

How do you believe in one God who exists as three persons, yet say you are not Trinitarian? How does your view differ?

Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are physically separate but united in purpose, essence, and nature.

Can we have some clarity on this? What do you mean by "physically separate"? Does God exist as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are they all eternal, have they each always been God?

For reference, I found a good explanation of what I believe here*:
Jesus Christ our Creator: A biblical defence of the Trinity - creation.com

*I don't necessarily agree with everything on this site, but this article is very useful for framing terminology in the current discussion.

Thanks all :)
 
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Jane_Doe

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Hi

Can I ask the Mormons here to clarify two things - what the LDS Church teaches on this, and what they personally believe? Some of this is confusing to me. The quotes from LDS teachings suggest polytheism or henotheism, yet lots of what has been posted sounds Trinitarian for example:



Jane - I know from other discussions you mean only Father, Son and Holy Spirit when you say "multiple persons", right?



How do you believe in one God who exists as three persons, yet say you are not Trinitarian? How does your view differ?



Can we have some clarity on this? What do you mean by "physically separate"? Does God exist as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are they all eternal, have they each always been God?

For reference, I found a good explanation of what I believe here*:
Jesus Christ our Creator: A biblical defence of the Trinity - creation.com

*I don't necessarily agree with everything on this site, but this article is very useful for framing terminology in the current discussion.

Thanks all :)
I will respond to the thoroughly via PM. Though it'll probably be an hour or two before I can finish typing it.
 
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Ironhold

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Can we have some clarity on this? What do you mean by "physically separate"? Does God exist as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are they all eternal, have they each always been God?

Consider John 17 -

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


Here. Jesus is praying that his followers will know the *exact* kind of unity he knows with Heavenly Father.

It's rare for me to see a Trinitarian reconcile this passage with the 3 - in - 1 concept without reverting to metaphor or a long wall of text.
 
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dzheremi

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It's rare for me to see a Trinitarian reconcile this passage with the 3 - in - 1 concept without reverting to metaphor or a long wall of text.

And if I or another Christian who is historically-grounded in their belief alongside the early Church were to present many such examples from the early centuries until today that show that such a Trinitarian understanding of John is the normative and orthodox understanding preached by the entire Church, what then? "Ohhhh, that's the words of sinful men!', or "I said I don't want a wall of text!" or some such.

We have all been to this rodeo before with the resident Mormons, so you'll have to forgive me for being a bit jaded by this point when this sort of post is presented as though it's going to "stump" Christians, or is actually something that we cannot answer. On the contrary, should you care to actually learn anything about the historical, orthodox understanding of the scriptures, then I would welcome you to read the homilies of luminaries such as St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine of Hippo, and all others which will show that the Trinitarian understanding of such passages is the understanding of the Church itself.

The same Church which wrote, canonized, and preached the Holy Scriptures from the earliest times until today is that which offers pure worship to the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, which is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the one God. + We have never admitted any other, and anyone who preaches anything else is alien to the Christian faith, being instead the bearer of another gospel and the worshiper of another god.

"Three in one and one in three -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. A perfect Trinity, in three and unified -- that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. Amen, Alleluia."

-- The closing stanzas of the Greek hymn "Asomen", sung during Pentecost in the Coptic Orthodox Church
 
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Rescued One

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■ “Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. . . ."

perfected indicates:

past tense: perfected; past participle: perfected

How did those three gods become perfected?

In October of 1833, the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation in which the Lord said, “I will raise up unto myself a pure people, that will serve me in righteousness.” (D&C 100:16.) The Lord was speaking of our pioneer forefathers, and also of the Saints of this day. In view of that implied responsibility, I would like to discuss with you today the way to perfection, which not only applies to this life but to the next one as well.
Royden G. Derrick, The Way to Perfection, General Conference, April 1989
The Way to Perfection - Royden G. Derrick
 
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...
Jane - I know from other discussions you mean only Father, Son and Holy Spirit when you say "multiple persons", right?
Just a note ... Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the only three people/gods in the godhead. Just as the LDS church has a First Presidency, this particular universe has a supreme presidency.

■ “Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. . . ."
God the Father
 
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