More women priests being ordaned than men.

[Radagast]

ridiculous antiquated stone-aged criticisms that harken to social norms in 1AD

Perhaps that's my definition. People who say that are "mainline."

People who say "they are God breathed scripture as much as the rest of what Paul said" are "Evangelical."

 

[Radagast]

Worldwide, about 25% of Christians are Pentecostal, and it's growing.

As to Anglicans, these are 20-year old numbers. There are fewer Anglicans in English-speaking countries now, and more in Africa, but the chart gives an idea:

 

[SkyWriting]

If that is the essence of the law and the prophets then it refers to love, because love fulfills the law. So you were talking about love.

again your failure to quote properly

 

[SkyWriting]

Yeah, I'd argue the "devalue" claim. Anglicans etc. don't ordain women because we devalue Scripture.

We place different interpretative weight on different passages, perhaps (placing a higher value on texts which proclaim equality than those which don't, for example).

For an excellent reason. There are no excuses, other than to follow local law, which does take priority.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, the Australians corresponding to the PCUSA and the American Methodists are all in the Uniting Church, it seems to me.

Our various Presbyterian denominations (which are Evangelical) all have counterparts in the USA, though.

We also have Lutherans, but I don't know enough about them to comment on where they sit.

To the best of my knowledge, we have never had a group corresponding to the (mainline) Reformed Church in America. Our "Christian Reformed Churches" are Evangelical, and probably a bit more conservative than the American churches of the same name.

Our Baptist churches are mostly mainline, which is the opposite of the US situation. But we do have a few hardline Calvinist Baptists.

There's an awful lot of parallel ecclesiastical history and shared ecclesiastical history, it seems to me. And a lot of Australian clergy read American books, or study at American colleges.

Socially, we also have a lot in common with the USA (as we also do with Canada, NZ, and the UK). Our big social debates are remarkably similar.

Our Lutherans are a lot like the Presbyterians who didn't go into the Uniting Church. Remarkably conservative by global Lutheran standards (no ordination of women).

I'm really aware of the ways in which we're not like America, and I guess I'd really like to see the fact that there are differences reflected in the way we talk about Christian experience.

(Tangent to this thread, but one that comes up a lot).

Perhaps that's my definition. People who say that are "mainline."

People who say "they are God breathed scripture as much as the rest of what Paul said" are "Evangelical."

By that measure, I'm an evangelical.

Some evangelicals do ordain women. Leon Morris famously fought for the ordination of women.

 

[Radagast]

Our Lutherans are a lot like the Presbyterians who didn't go into the Uniting Church. Remarkably conservative by global Lutheran standards (no ordination of women).

But perhaps not as conservative as the LCMS?

I'm really aware of the ways in which we're not like America

That may be more true for you (as an Anglican) than it is for me.

Some evangelicals do ordain women. Leon Morris famously fought for the ordination of women.

What I've been trying (and failing) to say is that the mainline/Evangelical divide is not really about the ordination of women per se, it's about the kind of reasons that get used in the discussion of the topic.

 

[Paidiske]

But probably not as conservative as the LCMS?

I'm not sure, mostly due to unfamiliarity with the LCMS.

That may be more true for you (as an Anglican) than it is for me.

Possibly. Australian Anglicanism is really not at all like TEC.

What I've been trying (and failing) to say is that the mainline/Evangelical split is not really about the ordination of women per se, it's about the kind of reasons that get used in the discussion of the topic.

I'm not really sure I agree. I don't feel you were able to accurately represent the "mainline" discussion at all, for a start.

But I feel like these categories are not at all neat, tidy and distinct, too. Is Ridley College mainline or evangelical? Or something of both? For example.

 

[Radagast]

Is Ridley College mainline or evangelical? Or something of both?

Ridley is interesting because imho it is indeed something of both.

I'm not sure that unique identity can be sustained; I suspect that over time it will move further one way or further the other.

 

[Paidiske]

Note: I am not a Ridley alum, and speak about it at a remove. There is certainly grumbling in Anglican circles that it is becoming less soundly Anglican. I have come across small things which seem to provide evidence for this.

But this is what I mean; American categories don't map neatly in Australia.

 

[Radagast]

Note: I am not a Ridley alum, and speak about it at a remove. There is certainly grumbling in Anglican circles that it is becoming less soundly Anglican.

I know; you've grumbled about it yourself.

But this is what I mean; American categories don't map neatly in Australia.

Not for Anglicans, perhaps. For other denominations the parallels are sometimes very close.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know. My husband belongs to a Church of Christ, but as far as I can tell, American Churches of Christ are a completely different thing again... (just one example).

I mean, Catholics are Catholics anywhere, I guess, but even they seem to have local flavour...

 

[Hazelelponi]

No - I did know I was talking to a woman.
But I get very frustrated by anyone - woman or not - who tells me that a woman is not as capable or MUST NOT [insert practice] because its a man's job. Now you can tell me this is what God wants - But I disagree. Its people within the church who stand up and relegate women to 2nd class...that sends me in the opposite direction of the church.

I can happily join God - and it will have nothing to do with a particular vocation Ive chosen, regardless that people such as yourself have deemed not suitable for for someone like me.

I will not be subservient to a husband, and if a woman chooses to be a priest, then I for one am very very grateful. The experiences of male religious ministers committing sexual assaults is enough evidence for me to be very very grateful for any woman who serves in the role.

I never said women were "not capable" of anything..

If you want to wreck your back and your body to "prove" your "equal to any man" or can do "any job" that a man can you go right ahead, dont let me get in your way.

But what you do in the board room (or perhaps the construction site) has not one thing to do with the Church as an instrument of teaching, expounding on God's Word and guiding God's people into an ever deeper relationship with Him. Bringing those who never heard His Word to the saving knowledge of Christ.

If you want to leave your children to be molded and groomed for their futures by people you barely know while you chase "equality" or "wealth" that's your business... I'd say you miss the point of where a woman's power to truly change societal ills lie, but, I'd certainly not stop you.

However, our relationship with God isn't a mail order catalogue for the "god" who fulfills our hearts desire, or checks all our boxes.

He's the sovereign God of the universe, and it's not always "comfortable" to be in a relationship with Him - because He asks our trust and obedience.

I swear since I've been saved I've hardly felt my feet touch the ground; that solid ground beneath me where my 5 senses reign and I have "control".

Just the other day God asked me to step out in faith concerning a serious matter. There's always been some cliff of faith that God keeps asking I step out on, and each time I take that leap with Him, He counts Himself trustworthy. And, as time goes on its easier to trust Him, but it's a process where God is teaching us about Himself through our relinquishment of control to Him. It's a relationship.

My husband isn't my exact copy. He has strengths where I have weaknesses and I have strengths where he has weaknesses, and in this manner both my husband and I make one full complete person.. It's what makes the relationship as help meets to one another so perfect. We don't render the other useless, we make one another whole.

And, while God is definitely complete without us and has no weaknesses, this is the model He has given us for our relationship with Christ, as the Body of Christ. One of relationship, of trust; of strengths on strengths..

There is nothing more comforting than being able to rest in perfect knowledge that there is someone who 'has your back' when your tired and can't do it, someone who can hold you when your world is crashing down all around you and make it right again. That's what God wants to be for us. He wants to give us a place of trust and comfort and rest..

But He can't be that for us if we refuse to trust Him in the first place.

Well, when things seem terribly silly to us, like a "no" to ministering or pastoring a church while being told we can do nearly any other position we like.. well, that's God asking for our obedience in a matter we don't understand, and to obey when we don't understand the why? That's just another instance of God asking our trust the same as God asking I step out in faith in that personal matter this week.

Christianity is about taking a leap of faith in life with an intangible..and watching that intanglible become a solid reality that can be tasted, touched, experienced.

If we can't be trusted to follow and obey God in something so small as this, why would God want to trust us with the big things? All exercises in faith are, are the practice runs getting us ready for the main race.. and if I can't be counted on for the small stuff I doubt very seriously God would see me as a person able to deal with more weighty matters where obedience might mean life or death.

 

[section9+1]

I never tell other people how they should behave. I'm not like Saul/Paul.

I mention what scripture says and it's in Gods hands for them to absorb His will in their lives. You might run around accusing and condemning others with your ideas, but don't make the mistake of thinking other people are like you. We aren't like you. You are just yourself.

Plus, again your failure to quote properly, I never said love.
I said "treating people the same as you'd want to be treated."

Since that is different for every person, then I have no basis to judge anyone.
How people love is different for each person as well.

I hold (others) in the same esteem, as I would wish others to think about me.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

There's all kinds of people I do not esteem and since I think they don't need to esteem me, I suppose the golden rule is not broken. Some people, I'm glad they think poorly of me. "Do not be surprised if the world hates you." In the world we are not enough salt and way too much sugar. Jesus didn't tell us to be sugar of the world.

 

[Zoii]

I never said women were "not capable" of anything..

If you want to wreck your back and your body to "prove" your "equal to any man" or can do "any job" that a man can you go right ahead, dont let me get in your way.

But what you do in the board room (or perhaps the construction site) has not one thing to do with the Church as an instrument of teaching, expounding on God's Word and guiding God's people into an ever deeper relationship with Him. Bringing those who never heard His Word to the saving knowledge of Christ.

If you want to leave your children to be molded and groomed for their futures by people you barely know while you chase "equality" or "wealth" that's your business... I'd say you miss the point of where a woman's power to truly change societal ills lie, but, I'd certainly not stop you.

However, our relationship with God isn't a mail order catalogue for the "god" who fulfills our hearts desire, or checks all our boxes.

He's the sovereign God of the universe, and it's not always "comfortable" to be in a relationship with Him - because He asks our trust and obedience.

I swear since I've been saved I've hardly felt my feet touch the ground; that solid ground beneath me where my 5 senses reign and I have "control".

Just the other day God asked me to step out in faith concerning a serious matter. There's always been some cliff of faith that God keeps asking I step out on, and each time I take that leap with Him, He counts Himself trustworthy. And, as time goes on its easier to trust Him, but it's a process where God is teaching us about Himself through our relinquishment of control to Him. It's a relationship.

My husband isn't my exact copy. He has strengths where I have weaknesses and I have strengths where he has weaknesses, and in this manner both my husband and I make one full complete person.. It's what makes the relationship as help meets to one another so perfect. We don't render the other useless, we make one another whole.

And, while God is definitely complete without us and has no weaknesses, this is the model He has given us for our relationship with Christ, as the Body of Christ. One of relationship, of trust; of strengths on strengths..

There is nothing more comforting than being able to rest in perfect knowledge that there is someone who 'has your back' when your tired and can't do it, someone who can hold you when your world is crashing down all around you and make it right again. That's what God wants to be for us. He wants to give us a place of trust and comfort and rest..

But He can't be that for us if we refuse to trust Him in the first place.

Well, when things seem terribly silly to us, like a "no" to ministering or pastoring a church while being told we can do nearly any other position we like.. well, that's God asking for our obedience in a matter we don't understand, and to obey when we don't understand the why? That's just another instance of God asking our trust the same as God asking I step out in faith in that personal matter this week.

Christianity is about taking a leap of faith in life with an intangible..and watching that intanglible become a solid reality that can be tasted, touched, experienced.

If we can't be trusted to follow and obey God in something so small as this, why would God want to trust us with the big things? All exercises in faith are, are the practice runs getting us ready for the main race.. and if I can't be counted on for the small stuff I doubt very seriously God would see me as a person able to deal with more weighty matters where obedience might mean life or death.

I read your reply - Thankyou
You sound like you have a loving and positive relationship.

My only disagreement with you is that for some reason you think that if woman ministers it's against God. That this is something evil or disobedient. Its a theme given to us through patriarchy. Even the story of Adam and Eve. Eve was deceived. Not so Adam - he took acted knowing full well his actions were wrong - yet what did he do - He blamed not himself but Eve. Eve was deceived - Adam was wilful - But it was Eve who took the rap. And that's how it appears throughout the Bible, driven largely by the patriarchy of the time.

You think its God that's saying women are to be obedient to men and unfit to minister - I say its just an old patriarchy and its time to grow up - all this has nothing to do with God..... I think he's getting a bad rap for the stuff old guys (and some women by the looks) say, trying desperately to hang onto a paradigm that has long since been exposed for the nonsense it is.

 

[section9+1]

God's will and his word are increasingly being called nonsense by the world that hates him.

 

[Zoii]

Perhaps that's my definition. People who say that are "mainline."

People who say "they are God breathed scripture as much as the rest of what Paul said" are "Evangelical."

Thats your definition? Gee that's not very comforting for Christianity if there's to be no critical analysis of scriptures or challenges of their meaning within a contemporary society. Thats possibly why the religion is shrinking fast.

 

[Zoii]

God's will and his word are increasingly being called nonsense by the world that hates him.

Oh thats just an unsophisticated way of putting someone down without placing any logical argument.

Allow me to translate your words. YOU: you disagree with my view on some scriptures - therefore you must hate God.

Perhaps next time you could stick out your tongue as well.

 

[Zoii]

The thing is - Like it or not - Women are increasingly being ordained.
The thing is - like it or not - They are well educated and well-skilled and do their role with the love of God and the appreciation of their parishioners.

Like it or not - theres many parishioners who prefer a female priest over a male.

Now you can all complain - or hyperventilate - throw verses into the air - pray to God - post a hundred posts - BUT - women will continue to be ordained and I thank God for that.

 

[section9+1]

Isaiah 45:19 "I, the Lord speak the truth; I declare what is right." That means he gets to say what is right. Not us. All we can do is agree with him and if we don't then we are wrong.
Isaiah 3:12 "Youths oppress my people, women rule over them." That is an indictment, not a blessing.
There's all kinds of verses regarding the roles of women and men. If that sounds like an old patriarchy to you, then maybe it really is. But if your opinions deviate from God's word, then you are in the wrong because he tends to say what he means without regard for our feelings or opinions. And I don't think he bothered to seek out your counsel when he wrote this.

 

[Hazelelponi]

My only disagreement with you is that for some reason you think that if woman ministers it's against God. That this is something evil or disobedient

So once more I'll point out that I'm reformed baptist. It seems to be helpful.

I am solidly sola scriptura as a result, and as such do actually believe the Books of the Bible to be God breathed, and the message therein to be our basis of faith, and the measure of right and wrong.

It's fine to look at how we understand passages. I believe this is an important part of growing in knowledge and in faith..

But this is an issue that's not so clear cut... I've read the Bible in every translation, looked at history as well as the Greek and every argument on every side, and there's nothing yet to convince me it's not a sin.. There is a very large question mark around it and it's not so easy as to say that everyone who thinks it might very well be (or is) a sin is just an ignorant human being.

I'm not perfect. Far from it and I prefer to keep my failures of faith and obedience to things I really can't control at the time. Which means, I actually do attempt obedience to the things God asks my obedience in.

This is just another area for obedience. And until I feel absolutely certain in my understanding of this either way (although threads like this do really help that along), I'll not attend a church that has a woman Pastor, because I believe the Christian character of a Pastor to be very important, and if someone might be openly sinning they are out as a Pastor for me.

That said, I've looked at some of the women Pastors as well, heard what they are teaching and so far I'm far from impressed... as a matter of fact many/most of them would make excellent poster children for why women don't belong in ministry.

So, while I understand that we won't all agree on doctrine, and understand there are bad/horrific male preachers too, we do have to use all our wisdom and senses to attempt discernment of the truth of the matter.. and from what I've seen, it just seems a safer bet to err on the side of caution than to find myself lost on the wrong road.