LDS More troublesome words from Elder Holland: Err on the side of your faith = "lying for the Lord"?

JacobKStarkey

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I will stick with Bagley.

Will Bagley, Mormon Historian Home Page

For his mountain meadows massacre book, he won
  • Spur Award, Western Writers of America
  • Caughey Book Prize, Western History Association
  • Caroline Bancroft History Prize, Denver Public Library
  • Co-Founders Best Book Award, Westerners International
 
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Ironhold

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Even if BY did not order it, he could have been tried as a war criminal and hung for not supervising his militia more carefully.

Considering the lengths that the federal government was going to in order to justify Johnston's Army and the later anti-Mormon pogroms, that they didn't seek any sort of charges against Young should say everything about how flimsy any evidence was if they did think to try and charge him.

Remember, the government was so desperate for anything and everything that they could use against Young they took "Wild" Bill Hickman's so-called "confession" at face value. If they even thought that there was some way to get Young for Mountain Meadows, they'd have been all over it like Amy Schumer on a tacky joke.

This leaves us with either:

1. Furniss' side of the issue is closer to what happened, with Young legitimately not knowing the full extent of what was going on due to being too distracted to pay closer attention

2. A conspiracy so elaborate in scope and effort that the government didn't feel the risk was worth the reward.
 
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JacobKStarkey

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Ironhold is relying on an imperfect work 59 years old and ignoring works by temple card holding temple goers who disagree with him.

1. Being distracted does not excuse a rebellious Young from not competently supervising his militia.

2. That makes no sense.

The Furniss major arguments will get for the day are imperfect, and everybody pays attention today to Bagley et al.

The only issue now is the question: did BY order the massacre?
 
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mmksparbud

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Ironhold is relying on an imperfect work 59 years old and ignoring works by temple card holding temple goers who disagree with him.

1. Being distracted does not excuse a rebellious Young from not competently supervising his militia.

2. That makes no sense.

The Furniss major arguments will get for the day are imperfect, and everybody pays attention today to Bagley et al.

The only issue now is the question: did BY order the massacre?

From what I've read---they didn't make a move without his say so, nobody did.
 
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Ironhold

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Ironhold is relying on an imperfect work 59 years old and ignoring works by temple card holding temple goers who disagree with him.

If it's so imperfect, then why did it get a reprint from a major university's press about 15 years back?

The original editions were hardbacks, but the newer printings were paperbacks. Check the listings.
 
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Rescued One

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Just maybe, missionaries will be allowed to tell prospective members what Mormonism claims are requirements for eternal life!

Quoting from Elder Maxwell, Elder Holland said, “‘The highest education, therefore, includes salvational truths,’ thus the invitation to include in your scholarly backpack the body of ‘divine data’ that the eternities have placed at our disposal. We are to use salvational truths whenever and wherever we can.”
Be Faithful Disciple-Scholars Even in Difficulty, Elder Holland Says at Maxwell Institute - Church News and Events

Oh, no! :doh:Same old song and dance:

Although there are some limitations regarding what can be shared in a setting that is not under our control, there are many topics that Church members and scholars can share “without compromising their unique Latter-day Saint characteristics.”
Be Faithful Disciple-Scholars Even in Difficulty, Elder Holland Says at Maxwell Institute - Church News and Events
 
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JacobKStarkey

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If it's so imperfect, then why did it get a reprint from a major university's press about 15 years back?

The original editions were hardbacks, but the newer printings were paperbacks. Check the listings.
And what does that mean? It was a good work that opened up some serious questions. You simply don't want to follow those questions. I do thank you for dropping the attack on Bagley.

The issue now is only did BY know before hand? I have an opinion on that.
 
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dzheremi

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In an attempt to refocus the thread, I believe I've found the full talk from which the original clip was taken. I'm not 100% sure yet as I've still got it running (there's a fair bit of pre-speech stuff to get through; Holland's speech begins at 10:35), but it appears to match the clip right down to the placement of the clear podium relative to the speaker's podium:


Hopefully this will put an end to any questions about the context of the clip. When I first found this video, I skipped around a bit in an attempt to find the exact segment from the OP, and what little I heard sounded even worse than what was highlighted in the clip, at least in terms of focusing on this question of LDS (lack of) academic legitimacy.

But there you have it. Now we can all judge for ourselves.
 
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Ironhold

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In an attempt to refocus the thread, I believe I've found the full talk from which the original clip was taken. I'm not 100% sure yet as I've still got it running (there's a fair bit of pre-speech stuff to get through; Holland's speech begins at 10:35), but it appears to match the clip right down to the placement of the clear podium relative to the speaker's podium:


Hopefully this will put an end to any questions about the context of the clip. When I first found this video, I skipped around a bit in an attempt to find the exact segment from the OP, and what little I heard sounded even worse than what was highlighted in the clip, at least in terms of focusing on this question of LDS (lack of) academic legitimacy.

But there you have it. Now we can all judge for ourselves.

Don't quite have time to watch it in full right now, so I'll comment on what I do see and time stamp it from there when I get back.

10:35 -> For those who didn't get it, he was talking about "Hamlet". Awkward joke to be sure.

13:00 -> Even I've had to tell people that delving into things and dealing with critics isn't easy or pleasant. That people are actually willing to *kill* you over this stuff doesn't help. Yes, I mean that. People trying to defend the church get death threats for it.

16:00 -> Pretty standard set of caveats. He admits to being imperfect, he admits to focusing on one specific researcher due to the circumstances, he's declaring his intended audience, and he's saying he's trying to be positive.

17:45 -> Note that. He said "seek the truth" *and* "build the faith" together. He's trying to say that he believes it quite possible to do both, something that contradicts the allegations about what he says earlier.

18:45 -> The Church News is a news service that does, indeed, circulate news and information about the church. At the time he was growing up, it would, indeed, have been the only reliable source of information about what was going on in Salt Lake City as we didn't have the internet and most mainstream news outlets wouldn't have much bothered.

21:30 -> The admonition about hastening the work is pretty common. It's an urging for people to pick up the pace.

22:50 -> "Seriously. Quit navel-gazing. You have work to do."

24:00 -> I'm blanking on the specific passage, but in the Old Testament there's the admonishment that when people get learning they should also get wisdom to go along with it. Sounds like he's trying for that here.

27:30 -> There *is* an issue with various "religious" schools putting forward campus statements that are heterodox to statements of the sponsoring denominations, if not outright heretical. That's likely what he's referring to.

29:00 -> If you ever want to feel really, really depressed, look up something known as the "Ig Nobel Prize". It's an award given to scientific and other scholarly papers that make you wonder *why* someone felt the need to look into that topic, let alone write about it. Mankind probably isn't much better off for the endeavor, and may even be worse because the researchers could have been doing something more important.

30:30 -> "Don't expect to just make a pronouncement and have that be the end of it. As my awkward sports metaphor is meant to explain, you have to be ready to defend what you believe against harsh criticism and even outright lies."

31:30 -> "Your goal is to create material that can be understood by the everyday person but is as thorough as what any random academic is going to expect."

Left off at the 34:00 mark.
 
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TasteForTruth

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The slipperiness of the LDS leadership is on display again, this time in a speech of Jeffrey Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, given to the Maxwell Institute at BYU, the Mormon religion's flagship university:


This is one instance where I might not fully agree with the uploader, who titled this video "Elder Holland Gives Permission for the Maxwell Institute to Lie for the Lord". It seems to me more like he is saying that it doesn't matter if you are not credible in the academic/professional world so long as you are promoting the message and beliefs of the LDS religion. That's not the same as out and out blessing lying, but it does show a pretty disturbing disregard for truth, which is especially troubling in the context of a university, where challenging and learning to credibly defend one's own presuppositions and searching for truth are generally taken to be the entire point of the educational enterprise.

I of course entirely disagree with the sort of idea expressed in that video (of course it matters if you are credible), and find it very curious that Holland basically nails the academic's and other informed peoples' basic problem with Mormonism and its apologists when he says "We know you can't be credible in every circle if you're seen as lacking scholarly substance and categorically defensive all the time." Why, Mr. Holland, that is such an apt description! Someone must've told him he was behaving in exactly that way at some point, I'd think. ;)

But then I wonder why he has to ruin this very good observation by following it up with the idea that it is not permissible that anyone should ever be seen as "failing to serve the larger faith-oriented purposes of this church" (the LDS religion). Is it as simple as a somewhat awkward if flowery way of saying "put your faith first before your need for acceptance by the world", as a Christian might say, or is it, as the uploader says, a sly way of giving permission to lie if it advances the goals of the religion?

In my religion we are reminded by our leaders not to lie and how much God truly hates the lying tongue. Here is a sermon by HH Pope Tawadros II from 2016 on exactly that (given in Arabic, subtitled in English; sermon begins at 6:49):


Since I don't expect anyone to actually sit through a 44 minute video in a language they do not speak (I only put it here as evidence of a different way of being), I'd summarize it as "Lying is bad and you shouldn't lie."

I would think that this is a very uncontroversial stance among most people, and all people who are claiming Christianity especially. The holy scriptures remind us (Matthew 5:37) to speak plainly in matters so as to not give room for the devil to spread confusion by our tongues. Is Elder Holland holding to this by telling people at BYU that even if what they are doing or saying is not actually the truth, it will be fine so long as it is in conformity with Mormonism? How on earth do they (BYU and other Mormon institutions) ever expect to be taken seriously in any fashion by people outside of the 'Mormon bubble'?
What was being said prior to this 1:31 bit of video? The context should matter, IMO.
 
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TasteForTruth

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The slipperiness of the LDS leadership is on display again, this time in a speech of Jeffrey Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, given to the Maxwell Institute at BYU, the Mormon religion's flagship university:


This is one instance where I might not fully agree with the uploader, who titled this video "Elder Holland Gives Permission for the Maxwell Institute to Lie for the Lord". It seems to me more like he is saying that it doesn't matter if you are not credible in the academic/professional world so long as you are promoting the message and beliefs of the LDS religion. That's not the same as out and out blessing lying, but it does show a pretty disturbing disregard for truth, which is especially troubling in the context of a university, where challenging and learning to credibly defend one's own presuppositions and searching for truth are generally taken to be the entire point of the educational enterprise.

I of course entirely disagree with the sort of idea expressed in that video (of course it matters if you are credible), and find it very curious that Holland basically nails the academic's and other informed peoples' basic problem with Mormonism and its apologists when he says "We know you can't be credible in every circle if you're seen as lacking scholarly substance and categorically defensive all the time." Why, Mr. Holland, that is such an apt description! Someone must've told him he was behaving in exactly that way at some point, I'd think. ;)

But then I wonder why he has to ruin this very good observation by following it up with the idea that it is not permissible that anyone should ever be seen as "failing to serve the larger faith-oriented purposes of this church" (the LDS religion). Is it as simple as a somewhat awkward if flowery way of saying "put your faith first before your need for acceptance by the world", as a Christian might say, or is it, as the uploader says, a sly way of giving permission to lie if it advances the goals of the religion?

In my religion we are reminded by our leaders not to lie and how much God truly hates the lying tongue. Here is a sermon by HH Pope Tawadros II from 2016 on exactly that (given in Arabic, subtitled in English; sermon begins at 6:49):


Since I don't expect anyone to actually sit through a 44 minute video in a language they do not speak (I only put it here as evidence of a different way of being), I'd summarize it as "Lying is bad and you shouldn't lie."

I would think that this is a very uncontroversial stance among most people, and all people who are claiming Christianity especially. The holy scriptures remind us (Matthew 5:37) to speak plainly in matters so as to not give room for the devil to spread confusion by our tongues. Is Elder Holland holding to this by telling people at BYU that even if what they are doing or saying is not actually the truth, it will be fine so long as it is in conformity with Mormonism? How on earth do they (BYU and other Mormon institutions) ever expect to be taken seriously in any fashion by people outside of the 'Mormon bubble'?
After my first reply I saw that you'd posted the full video. So I watched his remarks in full. I think that your OP was hastily composed, as Elder Holland's message was not what you presumed it might be (had you watched his remarks in their entirety before posting). Specifically, I believe that this point is inconsistent with what Elder Holland was saying:

It seems to me more like he is saying that it doesn't matter if you are not credible in the academic/professional world so long as you are promoting the message and beliefs of the LDS religion. That's not the same as out and out blessing lying, but it does show a pretty disturbing disregard for truth, which is especially troubling in the context of a university, where challenging and learning to credibly defend one's own presuppositions and searching for truth are generally taken to be the entire point of the educational enterprise.

It is very clear that he was encouraging the members of the Maxwell Institute to work diligently and prayerfully to do due diligence in their treatment of matters related to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints within academia. And where there was apparent irreconcilable conflict, to favor their faith and covenants (these are personal matters, not institutional ones) over what academics offers, relative to the specific issue in question. He also suggested that, at some future time, they may have to "take sides," surrendering the truth that it is their prerogative to choose.
 
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JacobKStarkey

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I know several of the MI folks, and one is a friend.

There is an issue of writing faithful history versus a writing of history of the faithful.

Holland can be interpreted to mean that if an LDS historian cannot determine an issue based on the facts, the s/he should come down the side of the church.
 
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Peter1000

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I know several of the MI folks, and one is a friend.

There is an issue of writing faithful history versus a writing of history of the faithful.

Holland can be interpreted to mean that if an LDS historian cannot determine an issue based on the facts, the s/he should come down the side of the church.
And that would be the right conclusion for everyone.

If the facts can not be secured, do not presume. If there is not enough evidence to prove without a shadow of doubt, then we are not to lose our faith for what we don't know, but we are counciled to keep our faith for what we do know.

So much of the scholarly and un-sholarly works on Mormonism are very difficult to come to a factual conclusion, and so the book or paper more often evaporates into presumptions and opinions that can lead one to the wrong conclusion. For many non-Mormons they feel like they can actually lie about a subject because:
1) they must save those unfortunate Mormons.
2) they must please their audience and keep the revenues flowing.

Either way presumptions and opinions are not facts and should not be written and used as facts.

Take BY order to have the militia stand down and not hurt the wagon train with Missouri people.
The facts are in: BY did not order the brethren to attack the wagon train. We have his order in perfect order.
But this must be real hard for a writer looking for a scoop to swallow. He can't very well write in his new book on the Mountain Meadow massacre that BY did not order the attack. Right? Nobody will buy a book that says that and exhonerates BY. So then we go into presumptions and opinions, like, we know that BY ruled with such an iron fist that nothing was done without his say so, then we know that he ordered it some how, some way. We know he ordered it, (although there is no hard evidence) and we will not allow BY to say otherwise, and thats a fact. That's our position and we are sticking with it.

So Hollands talk is right on target. What we know we stand on and keep the faith. What the scholars presumptions and opinions are we question and keep our faith.
 
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Peter1000

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I will stick with Bagley.

Will Bagley, Mormon Historian Home Page

For his mountain meadows massacre book, he won
  • Spur Award, Western Writers of America
  • Caughey Book Prize, Western History Association
  • Caroline Bancroft History Prize, Denver Public Library
  • Co-Founders Best Book Award, Westerners International
So what? Did he tell the truth?
 
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TasteForTruth

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I know several of the MI folks, and one is a friend.

There is an issue of writing faithful history versus a writing of history of the faithful.

Holland can be interpreted to mean that if an LDS historian cannot determine an issue based on the facts, the s/he should come down the side of the church.
Either that, or they would have to choose for themselves.

I guess I am at a loss as to why this is controversial to some. I would think that any person of faith would favor those things he knows by faith over those things he doesn't know on account of the incompleteness of history, or the apparent conflict of the two. What good is one's faith if it is subordinate to man's even best understanding?

You know what I mean? Seems backward. And spiritually dangerous.
 
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Peter1000

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Either that, or they would have to choose for themselves.

I guess I am at a loss as to why this is controversial to some. I would think that any person of faith would favor those things he knows by faith over those things he doesn't know on account of the incompleteness of history, or the apparent conflict of the two. What good is one's faith if it is subordinate to man's even best understanding?

You know what I mean? Seems backward. And spiritually dangerous.
It makes sense. There are many articles on the internet that tell us the Jesus is not the Christ. That Jesus is an illusion, he never existed. Or Jesus existed, but never said that he was the Savior, it was all made up by disciples after his death.

In all of these articles there is a tiny sliver of some kind of cloudy evidence that may be used to come to some conclusion.

Why would a person who has received a testimony of Jesus Christ from the Holy Spirit, be overwelmed by some Ph.D in ancient studies that says his opinion is that Jesus is not the Christ. A confident person does not. They set aside the words of the Ph.D whose words are controversial at best and ideas that we do not know of, and we continue in the faith because of the many testimonies and words that we do know and believe.

Only makes sense. Why throw away all that we know to be true, for a few words that we can not prove to be true. So thank you again.
 
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dzheremi

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And where there was apparent irreconcilable conflict, to favor their faith and covenants (these are personal matters, not institutional ones) over what academics offers, relative to the specific issue in question.

The matter in parenthesis is the entire point of this thread: they're not personal matters anymore when they shape your approach to the subject as an academic subject.

This is why nobody takes any LDS 'scholars' seriously, and hence it seems like it's the exact opposite of what Holland should be encouraging, if he actually cares about the intersection of faith and academia in an honest, realistic way.
 
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TasteForTruth

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The matter in parenthesis is the entire point of this thread: they're not personal matters anymore when they shape your approach to the subject as an academic subject.
Understood. But man's perception of reality and truth through academics is, without inspiration from God, inherently limited. So it is not a foolish thing at all to allow one's academic understanding to be shaped or influenced by those spiritual things God gives him. On the contrary, he is a most ungrateful beneficiary (and a fool?) if God gives man knowledge which he then subordinates to man's puny reasoning; whether his own or someone else's doesn't matter. So while I do understand your point, I fail to see that such shaping is inappropriate. As Paul taught, the spiritual comprehends all things, whereas the temporal comprehends only the temporal.

This is why nobody takes any LDS 'scholars' seriously, and hence it seems like it's the exact opposite of what Holland should be encouraging, if he actually cares about the intersection of faith and academia in an honest, realistic way.
Again, understood. But any self-respecting individual of faith—real faith—must admit that there can come a point at which the intersection of academia and faith requires him to set aside a particular incompatibility, either real or perceived, and rely on the fatih God has given him. For is not faith given to man to anchor him against "every wind of doctrine," academic or otherwise? If not, of what lasting use is it?

Several times Elder Holland acknowledged the difficulty that the members of his audience faced. There is no indication that this was mere lip service, but the opposite—that he really understood how difficult it is, at times, to both honor the truth God gives one, and honor academia. Such is the burden of Gospel truth: you can't always be taken seriously by the world. This is not new; this has been the heritage of the believers since always.
 
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dzheremi

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Understood. But man's perception of reality and truth through academics is, without inspiration from God, inherently limited.

I'm not disagreeing with or for that matter even really addressing that. My point is that there are inherently academic and inherently unacademic approaches to things, regardless of the personal faith of the researcher(s). One of my old advisers when I was an undergraduate was a Bulgarian Orthodox Christian, and the man who replaced her when she went on sabbatical was an atheist. They both did fine, scientifically valid research in the field because they followed the proper scientific methods and practices to produce reproducible, falsifiable results -- not because of anything related to their faith or lack thereof.

So it is not a foolish thing at all to allow one's academic understanding to be shaped or influenced by those spiritual things God gives him.

It all depends on how you mean that and what the actual effect is on the person's work. No doubt there are millions of grad students, professors, etc. who might be praying for sanity during certain high-stress times in their professional journeys, and many who would thank God for the inspiration and guidance to studying whatever it is they are studying. That's all okay, but it's significantly less okay when a researcher's personal belief or non-belief in a God colors the conclusions they make, their presentation (or non-presentation) of supporting evidence, etc.

The Bible says "Come, let us reason together", not "Come, let us come up with a cover story for inconvenient facts".

On the contrary, he is a most ungrateful beneficiary (and a fool?) if God gives man knowledge which he then subordinates to man's puny reasoning; whether his own or someone else's doesn't matter. So while I do understand your point, I fail to see that such shaping is inappropriate. As Paul taught, the spiritual comprehends all things, whereas the temporal comprehends only the temporal.

And you can certainly research and publish on spiritual things, but if you're going to be publishing something which conforms to a religious narrative as a matter of your own fidelity to your religion, then it better not be presented as solid and impartial academic research, in the same way that it would be very inappropriate for a biologist or a botanist or whatever to be publishing scientific papers through a Church-related publisher of spiritual materials. It's not that the two are not or cannot be related -- it's that the truly comprehending person knows the difference between faith promoting research (again, "Come, let us reason together") and faith-promoting research (note the hyphen), which is usually several rungs below where it would need to be in order to even qualify as research in the first place.

Again, understood. But any self-respecting individual of faith—real faith—must admit that there can come a point at which the intersection of academia and faith requires him to set aside a particular incompatibility, either real or perceived, and rely on the fatih God has given him.

Yes indeed. That's why those who we have who are servants and also academics (which is not unknown, since backgrounds in medicine and other technically advanced fields are prized among Coptic people) will publish in both Church publications and non-Church publications, keeping distinct the barrier of entry for either. Doing good academic work and good spiritual work are not always the same thing, and there is a long history of Coptic people publishing on Coptic topics outside of Church-run publications (mainly for archaeological and historical journals; I don't wish to turn this thread into a discussion on that, but rather am only using them as an example to show that it is possible), which does not seem to be the case so much for Mormonism. I believe it is because of this confusion concerning the role of the faithful academic, as exemplified in Holland's speech.

For is not faith given to man to anchor him against "every wind of doctrine," academic or otherwise? If not, of what lasting use is it?

I don't know about you, but my faith is not as it is so that I can cause or win arguments in the academic world or whatever. So no. That's not why we are given faith.

Several times Elder Holland acknowledged the difficulty that the members of his audience faced. There is no indication that this was mere lip service, but the opposite—that he really understood how difficult it is, at times, to both honor the truth God gives one, and honor academia.

This does not seem to be a problem for other people of faith. As much as propagators of that religion nowadays love to talk about "Islamic science" these days, the truth is that the proof of the various Muslim mathematicians' theories is not dependent on their religion. By the same token, there is no specifically Christian, Mormon, Jewish, etc. science which relies on the religious identities of its practicioners.

Such is the burden of Gospel truth: you can't always be taken seriously by the world. This is not new; this has been the heritage of the believers since always.

This hasn't been a problem for the Christian Church, or at least it arguably wasn't until various theories on the makeup and functioning of the universe began to cause controversy in the Roman Catholic Church in particular, e.g., what supposedly happened to Galileo. But such medieval excesses cannot erase what was earlier established by the many philosophers found Christianity in the early days, e.g., St. Justin Martyr, Ibn Zur'a and his teacher Yahya ibn Adi, Ps.-Dionysius the Areopagite, etc.
 
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