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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. We are being trained for rulership trading now and we will help execute the civil law.

    2. The context was some of the civil law not the whole law and definitely the ethic of the law.

    3. I also said just because there are a few laws of the civil law that was in the law of Moses doesn't mean that we will be living under the auspices of the Mosaic law.
    If we had to live the Mosaic Law in the KoH reign we would have to keep all the 613 laws and 1000 or more other commandments and we would have to do sacrifices in order to cover our sins and that hasn't been valid since Calvary and if you sin you have to be judged and live under condemnation.

    4. You can't rebut the scriptures I gave on this subject so you have to try and distort statements that I made when you know the context I was speaking about.

    5. I am going to say this again, we will not be under the Mosaic Covenant and neither will Israel.
    To live under the Old Covenant you have to keep all the commandments and pay the price.
    Christians of the Old Testament saints, church age saints, tribulation saints will not sin in the KoH reign for we all will have been resurrected and have no possibility to sin.

    6. 1 Timothy 1:9; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, etc.
    I have already shown the scripture that proves that judgement will be given. It will be swift with a rod of iron.
    It is not like murderers and criminals will be running around creating chaos. That is why judgement will be swift as in immediate.
    How can you have a Kingdom of Peace and have renegades running around?

    6. I have given you the scriptures that you can't rebut and you say you believe the scriptures so you need to quit trying to pigeonhole the scripture and it's proper context which I have given and start believing and surrender to the truth.
    But at this rate you probably won't. Jerry kelso
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    As long as you continue to claim that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different in order to prop up the Two Peoples of God doctrine, you will never surrender to the truth.

    Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the
    kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
    repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

    Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the
    kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

    Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Another false accusation because you misunderstand and misconstrue and wrench things out of context including the scriptures.

    2. Matthew 4:17 and Mark 1:15 are both talking about the physical kingdoms on earth and the universe.
    Just like we have 1 country called the United States and 50 states Within it they can be be basically the same because the 50 states are a part of the 1 United States.
    The federal government which represents the whole country has different rules and obligations etc. but the states are basically for states alone.
    You can understand this but you want to make both terms the earthly kingdom.
    So we both agree that Jesus was talking about the earthly kingdom on earth in his ministry.
    Jews believe in one kingdom but make the Earthly distinction from the universal.

    3. The Spiritual kingdom concerning salvation is the KoG Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20.
    The Jews were never told to seek the physical KoH for salvation.
    Now what are you going to do with that since the scriptures you gave are about the physical kingdom?

    4. The Two peoples of God Doctrine is another false accusation.
    Jews and Gentiles are classes of people.
    Both Jews and Gentiles are saved by the New Covenant and no other.
    When the Bible says, there is no male, female, Jew or Gentile, bond or free, etc. it doesn't mean there are no class of different peoples in the church. It is talking about all the classes of people being equal in the body of Christ with each other. Only Christ is the head of the church!
    Paul explained it by saying the hand is no more important than the arm or foot is than the hand etc.
    what is different between the Jewish nation and the other saints intact in the Kingdom is the gifts and callings and position of authority.
    Even church saints will have different positions in the Kingdom according to ones faithfulness. Jerry kelso
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  4. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    I just started a thread on how one of the main purposes of the Book of Revelation is something we all (pretrib, posttrib, premil, amil, postmil, etc.) can agree on. It is very practical. Please don't take my OP as saying that we are wrong to discuss the different views of Revelation/end times. I just want to remind us not to miss the forest for the trees. Here's the new thread:

    The Book of Revelation is Practical and Applicable

  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Who in the historic true Christian Church before the 19th century distinguished between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?

    God always preserves His people and His truth. If this was an orthodox doctrine, we should find enduring evidence of it in 18 centuries of Church history.
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The Bible starts out with the formulation of the KoH and the KoG Genesis 1:26:28.
    The physical Kingdom was the Garden of Eden and dominion over all creation.
    Their relationship to God and their subjection to him was the spiritual kingdom.
    This cannot be denied.
    When they sinned they lost the physical kingdom and was kicked out of the garden.
    They also lost the spiritual rule in their hearts and sacrifices were made shown by Abel.
    This cannot be denied.

    2. Genesis 3:15 is the first prophetic scripture to restore the spiritual kingdom at the Cross. This cannot be denied for it came to pass when Jesus died and rose again which all the gospels record.

    3. The Jewish heritage came from Abraham Genesis 12-1:3.
    This a fact and cannot be denied and is an eternal covenant that is connected to the physical kingdom for those who bless Israel shall be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed Genesis 12:4.
    This cannot happen until Israel is at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.

    4. Abraham was the beginning of the nation of Israel then came Isaac and Jacob.
    Jacob's name was changed to Israel and his 12 sons made up the nation of Israel. Genesis 49:1 shows his sons which make up the nation and what would befall them in the last days.
    Verse 10; the scepter shall not depart Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet. until Shiloh come and unto him shall the gathering of the people shall be.
    Psalm 60:7; Judah is the Lawgiver.
    Verse 11, 12,13 show the past, present, and future of Israel. Deuteronomy 8:7-8 references going into a good land. This leads to the Kingdom through David which is eternal.

    5. 2 Samuel 7:4-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8 shows the eternal covenant of the Davidic Line.
    Isaiah 9:6-7 eternal kingdom that is connected to the restitution of all things Acts 3:19 which has not happened till Shiloh or the Messiah come from Heaven with his saints Revelation 19:11-15.
    These are facts and cannot be denied.

    6. The KoH term is only used in Matthew which is written more specific to the Jews and is Jehovah's gospel presenting Jehovah as King.
    Jesus lineage from Abraham to David Matthew 1-16. from which the eternal covenants come from.
    The KoH starts with John the Baptist ministry3:2; start of Jesus Ministry 4:17; Sermon on the Mount5:3-10; The Lord's Prayer 6:9-13; kingdom parables13/1-52; 20:1-16; 22:1-14; 25:1-46; Passover Meal 26:29 and the Great Commission 24:14; 28:18.

    7. 2 Major themes in Matthew's unique phrase the KoH.
    He connects Heaven and Earth together in more than 20 instances. Mark does twice and Luke 5 times.
    Clearest text is Matthew 6:9-10.
    Matthew's purpose is not designed to show a denotative difference or two avoid the divine name of God as in circumlocution because Matthew uses the word God in other passages.

    8. Matthew's theological purposes- God's plan functioning despittheir historical context in Babylon and moving forward of the historical context of Rome.
    Also, it is in light of the God of Heaven to supplant the Kingdoms of the earth.
    Superiority of Heaven over Earth Psalm 48:1-2; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34-35 and 27:51.
    This is mostly from a paper by Dr. Miller, PHD, Associate Professor in Bible Dept. at Maranatha Baptist Bible College and Seminary.

    9. The basic concept is all scriptural and agrees with Dr. Hubert Lindsey of Theology and who was tutored by Rabbi Ziegler in the Torah and Jewish culture.

    10. The terms being synomonous in some places can differ in hermeneutics and others such as the parallel places are because the Earthly KoH is a smaller sphere that is in the Universal KoG.
    I still believe that the KoG in its spiritual aspect is about salvation Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.
    The Jews were never told to seek the KoH in its spiritual aspect.
    Either way you believe cannot change the fact of the Physical and Spiritual aspects of the Kingdom and the promises of the eternal covenants of Abraham and David specifically concerning the nation of Israel and the earthly kingdom connected to the restitution of all things.

    11. This is the concept that I have been explaining the whole time. This view started at Genesis 1 and has been carried down by the patriarchs and the Jews way before the 1st century Christians.

    12. For those who believe the terms are the same miss the main point of the whole context of Matthew.
    Also, if you cannot understand the big picture historically of the Jewish context, under the Mosaic Law it is possible to live under the spirit of the Mosaic law, lose faith in God and lose hope in the future.
    Wrong teaching in this area can hinder the Church in its evangelism and cause people to miss salvation and destroy one's confidence in the resurrected Lord and promote a feeling that Christianity is a failure.
    It can have one to focus attention backwards 1900 years ago to a Christ on the cross, instead of the living Christ who is seated in the throne room today.

    13. The KoH is translated Baselia Greek for kingdom from the Heavens.
    Spiritual has always come from Heaven above and Christ said his Kingdom wasn't of this world and this shows a spiritual and physical aspects.
    Jesus has all power and authority in Heaven and Earth Matthew 28:19 but will reign personally on earth when he takes the kingdoms of this world over by coming out of the Heavenly kingdom.
    I recognize similarities and know why in these two terms. I also know the differences in the two terms and why it is important to know and understand the distinctions. Jerry kelso
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    But Jerry,
    I don't see the name of one saint of old between 100 AD and 1800 AD. Surely there's at least a few names over that period in whose writings we can find the doctrine?
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Kingdom of God was known in the Old Testament.

    2. Matthew is the only book that uses the term the KoH in the New Testament outside of Acts 1:6-7.

    3. The scriptures I gave and the position stemming from specifically Genesis 1-3 and that physical rule and the spiritual rule in their hearts and both having to be restored is a fact that cannot be denied.
    The spiritual rule in the heart was restored at Calvary.
    The physical rule will be restored when Christ comes back to earth at the Battle of Armageddon and sets up the millennial kingdom. That is a fact and cannot be denied.

    4. Dake quotes Matthew 6:33; Seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
    This is the spiritual aspect of the term the KoG and salvation which agrees with Luke 17:20-21.
    Dale says that the Jews were never told to seek the KoH for salvation.
    Can you prove this wrong scripturally? Let me know and then I will address the historical context of who believed the distinctions. Jerry kelso
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Not sure what it is you're asking about disproving specifically.

    You've quoted Dake. Whom can you quote before Dake?

    This proves what Jesus preached:

    Matthew 4
    17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mark 1
    14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The context I gave from Genesis physical and spiritual rule every Believer has believed down through the ages at least from the days of David because the Abrahamic covenant was already in existence and the Jews was already a nation under a theocracy of God and the promise of David and his throne being eternal.

    2. The term KoH is Greek and not in the Complete Jewish Bible.
    The word Kingdom is only used.

    3. The term the KoH cannot be because Matthew didn't wasn't to say the KoG because he used it in other places.

    4. There are some scriptures that are similar and synomonous and other places are different concerning the terms KoH and KoG terms.

    5. It is very hard to find anything about the term KoH being different from the KoG from 1st Century. Much is probably because of the Catholic teaching of replacement theology and apostolic theology that overshadows any othe group of believers at that time though some like Landmark and Anabaptists seem to still think they are the same things.
    Jews understand distinctions but still will use the KoG term overall.
    Dispensationalists Dake and Ryrie and Dr. Hubert Lindsey, who was tutored by Rabbi Ziegler in the Torah and Jewish culture taught the differences in the two kingdoms that was the major theme to Israel alone.

    6. Dake and Ryrie mentioned Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20 using the KoG in its spiritual aspect was to be sought after for salvation and came without observation and not with outward show.
    Dr. Hubert Lindsey comes more with emphasis on the history starting with the Garden of Eden and the two kingdoms that has to be restored in the eternal perspective as well as the Historical Kingdom message of Judaism meant the Jews in the Old Covenant under the age of the Law of Moses.
    Paul's message was not about the KoH reign in the Jewish context for Jesus message was only to the Jews under the law.

    7. The question to you is can you show a scripture that says the Jews were to seek after the KoH for salvation or that it comes without observation. Jerry kelso
  11. Small Fish

    Small Fish Matthew 16:17

    South Africa
    I am sure you can almost find just as many interpretations on the Bible as the score of people trying to understand it and specially when it comes to the end time prophecies and the Book of Revelation. I also believe that no matter how correct you maybe in your views there will always be things in the Scripture you don't understand. Well, that is untill the Perfect has come.

    I believe Scripture was deliberately written in such a manner because we are expected to rely on the Holy Ghost for our answers. As Jesus said;"because it is given unto you to know the mysteries but unto them it was not given."

    I also believe that when you do get the right revelation of the Scripture it will dovetail with the rest of the revelation in the Bible, fitting from Genesis to Revelation.

    So one thing I want to share that helped me substantially in regards to understanding end time events according to the Bible stemmed from what Jesus said;"as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the day when the son of man comes and as it was in the days of sodom so shall it be when the son of man comes." (not exactly in those words but here is the Scripture) Luke 17:26

    Now it seems when most people read that and they believe that Jesus was merely pointing to the moral conditions of those two stories and also apart from the beauty of modern day women that increases year by year Genesis 6:2 I believe the comparison to go much deeper than that.

    So let's look at some of the similarities between these two types in order to have a better idea of what to expect today. As the old saying goes "history repeats itself"

    Firstly, people focuses on two main groups which escaped with their lives (barely). Noah with his family and Lot and his family. Now it seems that most people will type these two groups with the Bride of Christ or Christ's Church. Which they are mistaking in doing so.

    In both these stories was another group that did not taste the judgment (tribulation period) at all and both had a body change. Yes, both these groups had a body change and therefore are the real type of the Bride of Christ.

    Firstly, lets look at Noah's day. Noah had a grandfather named Enoch. Now there are various Scriptures that refers to him some of which that points to a rapture. Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 and many people know of these Scriptures. Enoch walked with God and was Raptured while Noah like Lot went through the tribulation escaping with their lives and both became drunks (so to speak) and suffered scandalous circumstances concerning their family.

    Now in the days of Sodom, you might wonder, who would be the other group. It was Abraham and Sarah. Now you might ask what body change? Well, here goes...

    God calls Abraham and Abraham like Enoch walked with God. God promised him that he would become father of nations. And as time gone on God visited Abraham and Sarah once more and confirmed the promise whereof Sarah responded laughing at the thought and saying "after I am waxed old shall I have pleasure with my lord who is old also?" Genesis 18:12

    Even Abraham being over a 100 and Sarah over 90 years old found it hard to believe that they could have a child at that age. So something needed to happen. Genesis 17:17

    And something did change...

    Now in Genesis 20 Abraham found himself and his wife in Gerar. And there was a king named Abimelech and he saw the 90 year old grandma and he fell in love with her and wanted to marry her. Don't you think thats a bit odd? A king, of all the women he could have chosen from and he wanted a 90 year old women who was long past the flower of her age to be his wife??

    After that you will also find Abraham lived another 75 years, getting married again after Sarah's death who died at 127 years old in total. And Abraham had more children with his new wife Keturah Genesis 25

    Yes, they had a body change (not rapture in this instance) in order to receive the promised son typing the Bride's body change in order to meet the Lord in the air.

    This will also answer the parable of the 10 virgins. 5 was wise and 5 was foolish. They were all virgins showing they lived clean moral lives concerning the Word of God but only 5 virgins had oil in their lamps symbolizing the Holy Spirit. Like Enoch and Abraham they walked with God. The 5 foolish virgin did not have oil in their lamps and therefore missed the rapture and went through the tribulation period.

    Then after the 1000 years of peace where Christ and his Bride will be for their honeymoon (so to speak) all the people including the foolish virgins will be called to judgment where many will be allowed to enter heaven. They escaped with their lives but are not part of the Bride who will live with God in the City.
  12. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

  13. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

    Small Fish, post:
    >>>I also believe that when you do get the right revelation of the Scripture it will dovetail with the rest of the revelation in the Bible, fitting from Genesis to Revelation.<<<
    Yes, you are correct.

    By the way, Genesis 1 is a description of a plan of God for restoration of all things which were destroyed in ancient times in the garden of Eden. Other interesting thing that calls attention is the fact that Moses received this revelation from the Most High and Almighty God around 2.500 years after the apperance of first Adam, precisely after passed two and half days of the week of God. (One Day with the Lord is as a thousand years and vice-versa, as is is revealed by Moses in his pray (Psa.90:v.4 and 2Peter 3:v.8)

    Psalms 90:v.12-13&16
    v.12 Teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13 Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. 16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

    Based on God's six days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven days or seven millenniums) plus the Scriptures that teach that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4), then the mankind will go through six God days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).

    In accord the Holy Scriptures, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, so we have a table of biblical times, as follow:
    Adam lived …................................130 yrs and begat Seth

    Seth lived ...................................105 yrs and begat Enosh;
    Enosh lived ...................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
    Kenan lived...................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
    Mahalalel lived .............................65 yrs and begat Jared;
    Jared lived .................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
    Enoch lived ..................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
    Methuselah lived.........................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
    Lamech lived ..............................182 yrs and begat Noah;
    From Noah's birth until the Flood...600 yrs.
    Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood = 1,656 yrs.

    I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. See this table below:

    PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ---------------------- DURATION

    I - From Adam until the Flood----------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
    II - From the Flood until Abraham-------------------427 years
    III - From Abraham until Exodus--------------------430 years
    IV - From Exodus until king Saul --------------------396 years
    V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem -----------508 years
    VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus ---------587 years

    Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus – 4,004 years
    From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar) - 2,017 years
    Total from Adam until our days --------------------6,021 years

    Jesus, the Greater Light (Gen.1:16) came
    in the fourth Day of God's week or around 4.000 years after the creation of the first Adam, the earthly Adam. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more two Days of the week of God, totalizing 6 complete Days or six milleniums, around 6.000 years, more precisely 6.017 years, conform Christian Calendar. We have entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's week, that is the Great Sabbath. We are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, and Day of the Lord, and the Day of Vengeance, and the Day of Judgment. And our Almighty God the Father entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping of course, and JESUS assumed the control or the government of the Universe. JESUS is now sat on His Tribunal, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

    The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:15)

    Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. Amen.
    Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

    Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Your sources are exclusively recent dispensational. Dispensationalism is alone and unique in appealing to the "decayed and vanished" (Hebrews 8:13) carcase of the old covenant, and to Talmudic Judaism, for support.

    As you're well aware, Christ's denunciations of the Pharisees and their Talmudic doctrinal traditions are epic (Matthew 23:13-39). Of the latter, He said that they made the Word of God of no effect (Mark 7:13). Paul echoes these "sentiments" in Acts 13:27:

    For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

    Until we can see more convincing historical support (which is nonexistent), we cannot conclude that differences between the KoG and KoH constitute legitimate enduring NT orthodox doctrine.
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You have made accusations that you can't prove wrong and you didn't. Scriptural context is what is important not your church who is allegorical if I recall. If that is true then they are the one who is mixing men's doctrines.
    This is not about church history but truth of scripture and it's context.

    2. You are wrong about dispensations and the scriptures that back up the whole idea of stewardships that correlate with covenants.

    3. I explained the KoH and KoG by scripture starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve sinned and lost the physical rule of the Garden and the spiritual rule of God in their hearts.
    They needed to be restored. Are you going to deny that this was the crux of the Redemptive plan of God to begin with.
    Do you deny this? Jerry kelso
  16. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member


    We must say unto all people of God, by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first (Daniel 12:1to4) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1The.4:15to18)

    Our conversation is in heaven (heaven is not the physical space of the Universe, but celestial place or heavenly place in Christ JESUS. Eph.1:3 ; from whence also WE LOOK FOR THE SAVIOR , the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will change OUR VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (Phil: 3:20-21) Remember: JESUS said: He that believes on me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HAS SAID, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this spoke He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive (John 7:38-39) Now, If a man keep my saying, he will never see death. (John 8:51) And more: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:26)

    And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto His servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev.22: 1&6-7&17)

    So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that IS WRITTEN, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1Cor. 15:54-55)

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain THAT WORLD, that is the next Dispensation, the Dispensation of God's Kingdom, the third heaven, which will be established in this first century of the seventh and last millennium, that is the millennium of Christ, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can THEY DIE any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:35-36) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed. (1Cor.15:51) Again, as I said above: Our conversation is in heaven (heaven is not the physical space of the Universe, but celestial place or heavenly place) ; from whence also WE LOOK FOR THE SAVIOR , the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will change OUR VILE BODY, Remember: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thes.5:23 Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Do you deny that the KoG and the KoH are one and the same?
  18. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

    JESUS said to His disciples and to us too, the believers:

    Luke 20:35-36NIV

    35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Remember: John the Baptist was angel. Mat.11:7 to 10

    The birth of angels here in the earth is by prophecy. Isaiah prophesied the birth of John (Isa.40:v.3 and Mal. 3:v.1)

    And now the Most High and Almighty God will sent un Arcangel. His mysterious birth is in Rev. 12:1-2&5to8 and Daniel 12:1to4) The Apostle Paul wrote about him: 1The.4:16


    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philippians 3:20-21KJV

    20 For our conversation is in heaven*; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    * heaven is not the physical space of the Universe (sky), but celestial regions in Christ JESUS established here in the earth as the OT and NTs. (Eph.1:v.3 among others)

    Who is worth to enter in the kingdom of God that will be established now in this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day of the week of God? This last millennium is The Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, and the Millennium of Vengeance, and the Millennium of Judgment, the Day of the Lord.

    Even now, in this seventh Day, our God Almighty has entered in His rest as He planned in the beginning of His works, and the Judgment Seat of Christ is already established and is running though He be invisible in this present moment.

    1John 2:28 - 29

    28 And now, little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

    29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.
  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Why did you not my answer my question?

    2. In the fact that where God dwells in Heave the planet where the Holy City is that will come down to earth in the future they are physically different.
    For example, John 14:6; I go prepare a place for you......If they are the same then physically Christ never left the physical earth and where are the physical houses he is building?
    When Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world was Heaven where God dwells at the right hand of the throne, not on earth.
    Heaven is my throne, the earth is my footstool.

    3. Because God created our universe he was in the dateless past so in this respect the KoG has no beginning but the Kingdom of Heaven does.

    4. Because the physical earth is in the universe and God is creator of all creation everywhere in the universe they have many things in common.
    They can be the same in relation with the earth being the lesser and being the part of the whole universal KoG just as a state to a country.
    The Son is given the Kingdom on earth to rule and reign till he puts all his enemies under his feet and till death is gone.
    When this happens the Son will give the Kingdom of Heaven on earth back to the Father so God can be all in all.
    This earth is out of harmony physically and spiritually with the whole physical KoG which is the rest of the universe.

    5. In the spiritual aspect, Israel had to repent in order to gain entrance into the KoH reign on earth. This is known as the KoG Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.
    They were told to seek the KoG and that the KoG comes without observation. This deals specifically salvation and the way to receive it. This is never said of the KoH.
    There are spiritual things contained in the earthly KoH such as bad fish and good fish which are professors and true believers etc.
    Matthew 19:23-26;
    The rich man was sad cause he couldn't give up his riches and this why he couldn't live for God and couldn't gain entrance into the physical KoH reign on earth.
    Jesus responds, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the physical KoH reign on earth.
    Verse 24 says and again I say unto you.
    The correct word in the complete Jewish Bible is furthermore. So Matthew is not repeating the same thing over. This is why verse 24 using the term KoG which is conducive to verse 25 who then can be saved.
    Verse 23 the Physical KoH; verse 24; the spiritual KoG.

    6. Matthew could not have used circumlocution in not mentioning the word of God for he mentions it in his book.
    I already touched on similarities because of the lesser being part of the greater.

    7. There are many contexts of many different kingdoms.
    The context of the physical and spiritual kingdoms having to be restored is a scriptural fact of God's eternal plan.
    This was Jesus message in his day. The Jews rejected this message.
    Now if you make the terms the same in every case you will run into trouble if you do not understand the Jewish context of the law and have the true church backslidden and in need to repent so they can have the blessings instead of cursings and you will have the true church losing its salt and not being the light of the world and have the church trodden down under the feet of men. How can this be when the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true church.

    8. If you do keep them the same it doesn't change the fact of the restoration of the physical kingdom and doesn't keep the Jews from being able to repent and receive the KoH reign on earth and to fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham and David which is the new covenant and Israel at the head of the nations on earth and the land and the capital of the earth and the Jewish feasts forever. Jerry kelso
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The simple reality is that neither of us accept the other's arguments. Thus we'll have to leave it to our readers to decide whose arguments they accept. There's plenty of other commentary out there that they can consult to arrive at their decisions. God bless.
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