more questions

[lookinguptoo]

I just finished reading Lotar's thread on "questions" and found it very interesting because he asked many of the questions I wanted to know, but I still have some more if you do not mind. First, what is the difference between Catholism and Orthodoxy? Second, do you have open communion? Third, What is the significance of icons? Fourth, do you pray to saints?

 

[Philip]

I just finished reading Lotar's thread on "questions" and found it very interesting because he asked many of the questions I wanted to know, but I still have some more if you do not mind.

Not at all. Please ask all of the questions you have.

First, what is the difference between Catholism and Orthodoxy?

Hmmm. I think I will come back to that one later. In some ways, we are very similar. In other ways, we are nothing alike.

Second, do you have open communion?

Definitely not. The Eucharist is the ultimate expression of our unity. It is only open to those who are in complete agreement with us.

Third, What is the significance of icons?

Their primary purpose is to confirm the Incarnation. They offer confirmation of salvation as well. Further, the serve as records and teachers of theology. We see icons as being more like books than pictures. They help put us in the correct mindset.

Fourth, do you pray to saints?

We ask the Saints to pray for us. We believe that the departed are as much, even more so, a part of the Church as we are. They are alive with Christ in heaven. We ask them to pray for us just as we ask our brothers and sisters still on earth to pray for us.

 

[lookinguptoo]

Thank you for responding, but it makes me have more questions for instance if you ask saints to pray for you do you also ask angels and the Holy Ghost to pray for you? Also, do you feel you can pray to God directly yourself? If so, how do you choose whom to talk to? I think I understand the concept of saints better now because you said you pray for them to pray for you rather than actually praying to them. That makes sense to me.
As for icons, that really confuses me. How are they used in both daily life and in church?

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Looking:

Whenever I pray, I entreat everyone in heaven using this prayer:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the Living God, through the prayers of the Most Pure Theotokos and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us.

Theotokos = Mother of God (The Virgin Mary)

 

[MariaRegina]

Thank you for responding, but it makes me have more questions for instance if you ask saints to pray for you do you also ask angels and the Holy Ghost to pray for you? Also, do you feel you can pray to God directly yourself?

Dear Looking:

Sometimes I pray to a particular saint, or to the angels or to the All-Holy Trinity. Other times I pray to Christ our God Himself, especially when I say the Jesus Prayer:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

The Orthodox Church has prayer books with a lot of prayers written by the saints which we can use.

If so, how do you choose whom to talk to? I think I understand the concept of saints better now because you said you pray for them to pray for you rather than actually praying to them. That makes sense to me.

I prefer to use the Jesus Prayer as my guide. For example, if I lose my car keys I will say:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of St. Nicholas the wonderworker, have mercy on me and save me.

As for icons, that really confuses me. How are they used in both daily life and in church?

Icons are often called windows to heaven. When I behold an icon it seems to draw me into the heavenly realm. It's all a mystery to me, but the Icons are venerated because they are holy. We don't worship them, but like a picture of our grandmother or other relative, they remind us of the saint who once walked this earth, and now is alive in heaven with Christ as our powerful intercessor.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[lookinguptoo]

I think I understand the concept of icons now and they certainly are beautiful, but I am still a little confused as to how they are used. I mean, can you have them in your home considering they are considered holy? If so, do you set time aside to specifically pray in front of them or are they just reminds of God's greatness to you? And in church are they there to indirectly guide the worship service just by their presence or do you do something with them? For example, do you touch them, bow before them, make mention of them as part of the service or something else? Chanter, I think I understand about the prayers now, but do you ever pray your own prayer from your heart? Another question is you wrote "The virgin Mary", do you believe as the Catholics do that she remained a virgin her entire life? My last question is from Lotar's thread where confession was mentioned. I wonder what the Orthodox confession is like? I mean, do you have to go to a priest for forgiveness or does confession have another meaning?
To tell you the truth in my entire life I have met all sorts of people from all sorts of denominations and religions and I have been to many different churches, but I have never met an Orthodox or Coptic before so when I saw this forum it really sparked an interest in me. I am protestant and probably always will be because I have a good church. However, I would like to know about all my brothers and sisters. By the way, do you consider anyone that is not Orthodox or Coptic as a brother and sister if we really and truly love God and His Word? Thank you again for patiently answering my tedious questions.

 

[Oblio]

I think I understand the concept of icons now and they certainly are beautiful, but I am still a little confused as to how they are used. I mean, can you have them in your home considering they are considered holy?

Yes, in fact, I just had two blessed at church yesterday and brought them home.

If so, do you set time aside to specifically pray in front of them or are they just reminds of God's greatness to you?

I try to set aside time to pray at least in the morning and evening and at noontime. Morning and evening prayers are in offered in front of our Icon corner which among other things has Icons (see attacment)

And in church are they there to indirectly guide the worship service just by their presence or do you do something with them? For example, do you touch them, bow before them, make mention of them as part of the service or something else?

They are there to remind us that the Saints surround us as a great cloud of witnesses. They also visually remind us of the Gospel, think of it a having a visual Bible surrounding you as you worship. There are several Icons that we will bow before and say a short prayer to the prototype that is depicted in the Icon. In the case of a Saint, we ask for intercessions to God on our behalf. In the case of Christ, we pray directly to Him. We will also kiss the Icon as a sign of love and respect towards the prototype.


Icons are specifically mention in the rite of blessing an icon. They are also mentioned on the feast or celebration of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. This commemorates the defeat of the Iconoclasts (literally icon-smashers) that had destroyed most of the Icons of Christendom, in no small part as a way of capitulating to the Muslim invasion of the East. By celebrating this, we celebrate the fact the God became man Incarnate, and He could be depicted in form.

Another question is you wrote "The virgin Mary", do you believe as the Catholics do that she remained a virgin her entire life?

As the ark of the New Covenant who bore God the Word, the Theotokos was Ever Virgin. This is depicted on Icons by three asteriks or stars on her shawl that she wears (shoulders and forehead).

I wonder what the Orthodox confession is like? I mean, do you have to go to a priest for forgiveness or does confession have another meaning?

God forgives. We confess with the priest as a witness who stands with us in the presence of Christ before His Icon.

By the way, do you consider anyone that is not Orthodox or Coptic as a brother and sister if we really and truly love God and His Word?

We believe we have the fullness of the faith delivered to the Saints, but we do not judge where the limits of God and His Church are. As St. Maximos stated - We know with certainty where the Chruch is, we do not know where it is not.

 

[lookinguptoo]

This has really been an interesting reading I must say, but I would still like to know the differences between Catholism and Orthodoxy. Also is going into an Orthodox church difficult? I mean for a nonCatholic, going into a Catholic church is quite difficult because one has no idea what is going on and what to do next unless there is a Catholic with one to show him what to do and when to do it. Is an Orthodox church like that or could just anyone walk in and feel comfortable? Also, would you generally consider Orthodox and Coptic doctrines to be Biblically conservative or liberal? Thanks again.

 

[Oblio]

This has really been an interesting reading I must say, but I would still like to know the differences between Catholism and Orthodoxy.

I'll have to pass on this as I was never Catholic and I would not want to misrepresent their belief or post a link which might do the same. chanterhanson might be able to help as IIRC she converted from RC.

Also is going into an Orthodox church difficult? I mean for a nonCatholic, going into a Catholic church is quite difficult because one has no idea what is going on and what to do next unless there is a Catholic with one to show him what to do and when to do it.

First Visit to an Orthodox Church is a quick synopis of what to expect.

Is an Orthodox church like that or could just anyone walk in and feel comfortable?

It is like being in another world, but strangely familiar. My first visit was less than 2 years ago as a Southern Baptist. Though it was very strange, I knew within moments that I was home

Also, would you generally consider Orthodox and Coptic doctrines to be Biblically conservative or liberal?

Conservative

 

[lookinguptoo]

Thank you Oblio for the link. I read it all and found it very interesting. I hope Lotar sees this link in case he visits an Orthodox church. Orthodoxy sounds like it has many rich and beautiful ways of expressing its devotion to God.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Looking:

I did convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy and it was indeed very difficult because of the different ethos and fine points of theological differences. The Papacy is the main difference. My priest told me he knew several Catholics who left Orthodoxy before three years because they just felt that they weren't going to be saved if they denied papal supremacy and the magisterium of the Catholic Church. I remember thinking that I was going to be condemned to hell. In fact, I struggled with the same stinking thinking as Martin Luther did before he left Catholicism.

My priest said that protestants who convert to Orthodoxy have a much easier time, because they don't have a Pope.

The website below may be of help, although it has some harsh words that I personally won't use.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonrome.htm

Hope this helps.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I'll try to list here some basic differences between RCC & Orthodoxy, although it's a huge topic that would require a much more in depth response to be fair.

We believe that we must keep the faith which Christ taught to the Apostles, which the Apostles passed on to their successors, which has been passed down from generation to generation until today, without change. We don't think that we can figure out stuff that wasn't revealed before, that we come to understand points of faith that we didn't before. The expressions of the faith, ie the doctrines did develop over time, that is, the way the faith is explained progressed and was refined, but the faith itself remaines unchanged. Catholics on the other hand belief in doctrinal progression, that the understanding of the faith progresses over time. An example of the is the title of Coredemptrix for St. Mary, which now Catholics are free to agree with or disagree with, but may be defined by the Pope as the Immaculate Conception was, in which case Catholics will suddenly be bound to believe it, this kind of change is foreign to our understanding of the Gospel.

Catholics believe that the Pope of Rome is the shephard of all Christians, the Vicar of Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit from defining any doctrinal error. We believe that Christ needs no vicar, that He Himself is the head of the Church, practically as well as spiritually, and that all the patriarchs are equal, and all are fallible.

The Divine Liturgies in Orthodoxy, what the Catholics call the Mass, are the Liturgies written by the Apostles as they spread Christianity around the world. We do not believe that you can just go and write a new Liturgy as the Catholics did in the '60's with their new Mass, as we believe that Christ taught the Apostles how to write them, and while saints have added prayers to the Apostolic Liturgies as appropriate to changing circumstances in the Church, the essential Liturgies remain Apostolic, and always will in Orthodoxy.

We disagree with the Imaculate Conception, we believe that Christ took on our nature, and became like us in all things but sin, and that He took that nature from St. Mary, not that He purified her first and took on a nature different from ours, already purified. We believe that He took on flesh like ours, and defeated the death in it since He is life Himself, defeating death and sin by His death, so that we can all have life in Him.

We believe the ancient doctrines about St. Mary, that she fell asleep (died), was ressurected as we all will be at the general ressurection, and was assumed bodily into heaven. Catholics questioned these, and the assumption was later defined again and must be believed by Catholics, although Catholics are still free to believe either way on the Dormition. We accept the faith passed to us by our fathers without this kind of questioning and going back and forth.

We Chrismate infants immediatly after Baptism, and give them Comunion immediatly, and regularly. We don't hold back God's saving grace from our children thinking that we must do the work of understanding before His grace is effective, Christ said to let the little children come to Him and we do.

We believe that the Holy Spirit comes down through the prayers of the people and literally changes the bread and wine to the Body and Blood of Christ, that it is no more bread or wine, but the Body and Blood. This sums up all our believes on the change, we do not try to go further than this as do the Catholics, but leave it as a Mystery, simply.

We do not distinguish between mortal and venial sins and think that we do not need to confess "small" sins, we must confess them all, and strive to meet the commandment "be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect". There's no penance like 10 hail Mary's after confession since it isn't about guilt but about reconciling a sinner to God, coming before God, confessing our sins, and being accepted back by Him. It is His work, not ours.

We give the Annointing of the sick to all who are seriously ill, not just the dying as has been the Catholic practice.

We do not prevent married men from becoming priests, although once a priest a man can never marry, as is the ancient practice.

We do not have annulments like the Catholics do, we allow divorce in the case of adultury only, as Christ commanded. Marriage is indisolvable, the two literally become one by the coming down of the Holy Spirit. When the marriage is consumated it is inseprable, and nothing but an abuse of sex later can split what God has joined in two. We believe the priest confres the Sacrament of marriage like all the other sacraments, not the couple.

We do not allow marriage outside of Christianity as the Catholics do, St. Paul was talking about two unbelievers & one becoming Christian, he wasn't giving permishion for a Christian to marry an unbeliever.

We don't speculate about the salvation of those outside the Church, and we don't presume God's grace by saying that they can be saved, or judge in His place by saying that they are ******. We only know what God has told us we must do to be saved, and what we must bring to others so they may be saved, and do our best to do so, we leave the judgment to God.

 

[MariaRegina]

We do not have annulments like the Catholics do, we allow divorce in the case of adultury only, as Christ commanded. Marriage is indisolvable, the two literally become one by the coming down of the Holy Spirit. When the marriage is consumated it is inseprable, and nothing but an abuse of sex later can split what God has joined in two. We believe the priest confres the Sacrament of marriage like all the other sacraments, not the couple.

Interestingly, Coptic and Looking:

Re: Marriage

In the Protestant Church, the minister marries the couple. In the Roman Catholic Church, it is the couple who marries each other (cf. CCC), but in the Holy Orthodox Church, it is Christ Himself Who marries the couple through the ministry of the Priest. Therefore we agree with the scriptures that what God has joined together no man may put asunder.

Edit: In fact, in the ancient Church, all the Christians were married by partaking of the Holy Chalice during the Divine Liturgy with the blessing of the Bishop beforehand. This was the earliest marriage ceremony. Therefore, it was the Eucharistic Christ who sealed and joined the couple together. They became one flesh, one body, through the One Bread. Too bad that is not done today except in the Serbian Churches. However, with the freedom of religion edict of Constantinople, the marriage ceremony was changed to accommodate the unbaptized who could not partake of the Communion Chalice so the symbolism only was retained by using a "Common Cup."

Re: Holy Communion

In Orthodoxy, we don't speak of a defining moment when Christ's Body and Blood become present on the altar as the Catholics define. They believe that by the action of the priest when he says the words of institution: "This is My Body ....This is My Blood..." that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Orthodox believe that at the Divine Liturgy, it is the Holy Spirit Himself who changes the Blessed Bread and Wine into the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. This solemn consecratory action is fulfilled during the "Epiclesis" when the Priest prays, "Changing them by Thy Holy Spirit." Exactly when Christ becomes present on the Altar, we don't know, but sometime between the chanting of the "words of institution" and the conclusion of the "Epicleisis", our Eucharistic Lord is truly present on the altar. You see again, the Orthodox don't define every moment as do the Catholics. However, to be fair, the Roman Catholics are becoming more Orthodox in their theology due to the ongoing ecumenical dialogs with the Orthodox Christians.

Hope these clarifications help. More to follow.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth "a Cradle Catholic"

 

[MariaRegina]

We give the Anointing of the sick to all who are seriously ill, not just the dying as has been the Catholic practice.

Dear Coptic and Looking:

Re: Anointing of the Sick

The Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics give the Sacrament of the Anointing to the sick and to those who are dying. A person doesn't have to be seriously ill to receive this sacrament.

The Orthodox anointing: There is a complete Sacrament of the Anointing with seven priests and seven blessings and there is a shorter anointing as done in the hospital or after Divine Liturgy using the previously blessed oil.

On Holy Wednesday evening during Holy Week just before Pascha, all Orthodox, even those in good health, usually receive the Sacrament of the Anointing after preparing to receive this sacrament by receiving Holy Confession. This once a year reception helps to remind all of us that we could be taken in death at any time. The Sacrament of the Anointing is for healing of body and soul, just as the reception of Holy Communion.

Hope this helps.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth, a "Cradle Catholic"

 

[MariaRegina]

We believe the ancient doctrines about St. Mary, that she fell asleep (died), was ressurected as we all will be at the general ressurection, and was assumed bodily into heaven. Catholics questioned these, and the assumption was later defined again and must be believed by Catholics, although Catholics are still free to believe either way on the Dormition. We accept the faith passed to us by our fathers without this kind of questioning and going back and forth.

Dear Coptic and Looking:

Re: The Immaculate Conception

To be fair to Catholics, Roman Catholic Theologians debated the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed and Ever Virgin Mary within the womb of St. Anne, with St. Thomas Aquinas against the idea and St. Bonaventure for it. The doctrine of the IC was a product of St. Augustine's concept of original sin and his redemptive theology which sprang from those concepts.

Orthodox Christians, on the other hand, have few definitions except for those pertaining to Christ and His Church. Therefore, this definition of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed and Ever Virgin Mary was not considered necessary for our salvation in the Orthodox way of thinking.

Re: Assumption aka "The Dormition of the Theotokos"

The Church tradition has always held that the Blessed and Ever Virgin Mary died and was assumed into heaven. Tradition tells us (cf. Orthros for the feast day) that when the time had come for Mary to depart this life, she was forewarned. Therefore she asked the Twelve Apostles to come and be present at that moment when Christ her Son and God would receive her soul. Tradition tells us again, that doubting Thomas was not among the twelve. After she died, she was buried. St. Thomas arrived three day late and asked to see where they had laid her. When they rolled back the stone, her body was not present but a fragrance of flowers filled the air.

The Roman Catholic Theologians have debated whether Mary actually died or was assumed bodily without experiencing death. Most Catholics believe that Mary did indeed die as Mary did not believe that she should be spared death - her Son certainly was not spared His agony on the Cross. She died a good peaceful death to teach us an example.

Hope this clarification helps.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth "a Cradle Catholic"

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Looking:

Have you ever wondered why the newlywed couples in the Protestant Church give each other wedding cake and share champagne (or sparkling grape juice) in what are called "blessing cups?" This custom stems from partaking of the Eucharist together at the beginning of Christianity. Instead of the Eucharistic Bread and Wine, they feed each other cake and champagne.

 

[nyj]

The Roman Catholic Theologians have debated whether Mary actually died or was assumed bodily without experience death. Most Catholics believe that Mary did indeed die as Mary did not believe that she should be spared death - her Son certainly was not spared His agony on the Cross. She died a good peaceful death to teach us an example.

Heh, I heard that it was Orthodox theologians that debate whether Mary actually died and that the Catholic Church believes that she died and was then assumed. *shrug*

 

[MariaRegina]

Heh, I heard that it was Orthodox theologians that debate whether Mary actually died and that the Catholic Church believes that she died and was then assumed. *shrug*

Dear faithful Dominican (nyj):

That's news to me!

Even Neal didn't know whether Mary died or was assumed bodily into heaven without experiencing actual death. The CCC isn't that clear. He quoted it and shrugged his shoulders also. Do you have any information on that one? He was trying to get an exact reference, but hasn't had a chance yet.

Thanks,
Elizabeth

 

[Philip]

Heh, I heard that it was Orthodox theologians that debate whether Mary actually died and that the Catholic Church believes that she died and was then assumed. *shrug*

We do have a feast day marking her falling asleep.

 

[MariaRegina]

We do have a feast day marking her falling asleep.

Thanks Philip.

Dear Dominican (nyj):

The Orthodox Christians have been celebrating the Feast Day of the Dormition of the Theotokos on August 15 for many centuries. Dormition also means "falling asleep" or the death of the Blessed and Ever Virgin Mary. All our prayers on that feast day celebrate the holy death of the Mother of God. As far as I know there was never any serious debate about that. Of course you know that proud men will argue sometimes, that's very human.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth