more calvinist or arminian

RobNJ

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We are the ORIGINAL church, the REAL question might be are do either of those lesser positions resemble Orthodoxy in any way. However, since both those viewpoins suffer from being spawned by western Christianity, the best answer is neither !
 
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cobweb

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Neither really fit. Calvinism is definitely not us at all. Arminianism is not what we believe either, but less not so (in my opinion) than Calvinism.

Both came a full millennia and a half after our beliefs were formed so it is hard to make a comparison.
 
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mark46

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I do not pretend to speak for Orthodoxy. However, it is my understanding that Calvinism is serious heresy.

Also, we have discussed the Wesley/Arminian tradition a few times. While this position is not Orthodox, there seemed to be relatively little major error contained there. Certainly no one at the time discussed heresy (dogmatic error).
 
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Livindesert

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yeah, from my understanding we are not Armenian, but we don't have problems with that as much as with Calvinism. Calvinism is just awful.

So the Armenians are no longer Orthodox. :p
 
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MKJ

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Well, Wiki states some major points of Arminianism. Assuming it is accurate, it looks to me like in a number of ways it would be ok from an Orthodox perspective, and in others not, and some just not really be an Orthodox way of thinking.

Just to give the points:


 
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Knee V

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Arminianism and Calvinism both start from the vantage point that the chief problem with sin is that it makes us guilty (making God infinitely angry), and guilt deserves punishment; sin MUST be punished, otherwise God is not God. God still loves us, but is "bound" to punish our sin one way or another. So Christ comes and takes the punishment for our sin so that we don't have to bear it. Jesus gives us His righteousness in exchange for taking our guilt and having it punished. Now our sin has been punished and God is able to forgive our sins and is no longer eternally angry at us.

For the Orthodox, the chief problem with sin is NOT that it makes us guilty and God infinitely angry. The chief problem with sin, rather, is that it kills us and separates us from communion with God. Thus, from the start, we're painting an entirely different picture.

Arminianism and Calvinism, although disagreeing on what color to paint the walls and whether or not to include a fire place, are both dealing with the same foundation and basic floor plan. The Orthodox have a completely different framework.

We are neither Arminian nor Calvinist. We are Orthodox. God's chief attribute is not His holiness. Rather, it is that He is Love. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," Christ tells us. His heart and character are that of the Father. His sacrificial and self-emptying Love is that of the Father. From all eternity God has been in an eternal and self-emptying relationship of Love within the Trinity. That is who and what God is. He is self-emptying, not self-indulging. His chief concern is not to be glorified. His chief concern is that of Christ's - to lay down His life for His friends. And not because He is infinitely enraged by our sin, but because He infinitely loves us and wants to commune with us unceasingly.
 
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Philothei

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Calvinism and Arminiasm leaves EO belief system irrelevant since both started later on. Calvinism has been condemened and Arminianism was a reaction to Calvinism.... We have neither ... Now if you consider free willers arminian then I guess we would be that..But that is NOT all we believe. The whole approach to salvation is different in EO.
 
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Philothei

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Arminianism and Calvinism both start from the vantage point that the chief problem with sin is that it makes us guilty (making God infinitely angry), and guilt deserves punishment; sin MUST be punished, otherwise God is not God. God still loves us, but is "bound" to punish our sin one way or another. So Christ comes and takes the punishment for our sin so that we don't have to bear it. Jesus gives us His righteousness in exchange for taking our guilt and having it punished. Now our sin has been punished and God is able to forgive our sins and is no longer eternally angry at us.

For the Orthodox, the chief problem with sin is NOT that it makes us guilty and God infinitely angry. The chief problem with sin, rather, is that it kills us and separates us from communion with God. Thus, from the start, we're painting an entirely different picture.

Arminianism and Calvinism, although disagreeing on what color to paint the walls and whether or not to include a fire place, are both dealing with the same foundation and basic floor plan. The Orthodox have a completely different framework.

We are neither Arminian nor Calvinist. We are Orthodox. God's chief attribute is not His holiness. Rather, it is that He is Love. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," Christ tells us. His heart and character are that of the Father. His sacrificial and self-emptying Love is that of the Father. From all eternity God has been in an eternal and self-emptying relationship of Love within the Trinity. That is who and what God is. He is self-emptying, not self-indulging. His chief concern is not to be glorified. His chief concern is that of Christ's - to lay down His life for His friends. And not because He is infinitely enraged by our sin, but because He infinitely loves us and wants to commune with us unceasingly.
:amen:
 
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