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Morals and God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by VeraciousMaven, Mar 8, 2002.

  1. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,588
    Atheist
    VM:
    Exactly my point! As soon as they are "placed" somewhere - that is, someone formulated them, interpreted them, defined them as true or false, they are no longer objective.

    Let´s take an example - a famous zen saying: if a tree falls in a forrest when there is noone around to here, does it make a sound?

    Well, yes."Sound" is clearly defined. It doesn´t matter if it is heard or not. "Falling trees make a sound" is an objective true statement. It is independant from circumstance and interpreter.

    The next one: "homosexuality is bad"
    "Bad" is not clearly defined. Many people can agree to a very basic definiton, some not even on that.
    So this statement is true or false, depending on the interpreter. Regarding the christian viewpoint, it is a subjective true statement.

    supermagdalena:
    Subjective, not-absolute morals are still morals. Society always has some moral code, but it may differ from culture to culture. Some moral rules are more widely accepted than others, but none are absolute. All depends on a societies ability to enforce moral laws.

    It seems he did a appaling job with that. We are still hurting each other.

    Blessed-one:
    To the child, it is not stealing. It wants something, it takes something. It is not until it learns that there are things that are not for him to take, that it gets the notion of "stealing".

    Sadly, we don´t have that. Conscience is a learned and culture conditioned thing.

    Strangly, different religions seem to have different moral codes. Until God reveals the only true one, we will have to either accept the difference, or accept change - on our side as well as on the other.
     
  2. supermagdalena

    supermagdalena The Shrubs and the Flan.

    +25
    Non-Denom
    We screwed everything up. Not God.

    Look at it this way, if you're about to die, what's the first thing that naturally pops out? "Oh my God". We have a conscience and a deep implanted knowledge of Him.
     
  3. Corey

    Corey Veteran

    +151
    Deist
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Yes. The fact that I exist to myself is objective enough. Given that fact, that others seem to behave as if they also exist independently of me is fairly objective though the logic is inductive. From there, the moral code can differ between cultures. I chose a moral code that followed the rights of the individual. It shouldn't be too hard to take a different emphasis than mine on the individual though.

    Logically, no moral standard is still a moral standard (the null, so to speak). It would be exemplified by the phrase, "Anything goes."

    However, humans are social animals. It is in our nature (whethere learned or instinctually) to create moral codes of some sort or another. I would suggest reading up on moral development. I recommend starting with Steven Scherer (I think that is his name). If nothing else, go to your local university and get on a computer in the library and follow the links to get a psychological journal database then type in "moral development." You'll find a bunch of stuff analyzing moral development.

    No we aren't. If we were, then everyone would share the same basic moral codes. If that were true, then the Christian society in India (founded by St. Thomas the Doubter) would the same moral codes as western Europe. They don't.

    Now that's just silly. I would think that at least half would be "Oh Sh!t" or "Please don't kill me!"
     
  4. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

    753
    +2
    I still don't see a strong case of how objective morals can be here without God, failing that, on how objective do not exist.

    I don't think man would make a standard that man can never live up to.

    Exactly my point! As soon as they are "placed" somewhere - that is, someone formulated them, interpreted them, defined them as true or false, they are no longer objective.

    But you're missing the point. God is our morals. God always was, thus morals always were. To be moral is to emulate God.
     
  5. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,588
    Atheist
    And so you did it at last, VeraciousMaven! You turned your argument into a full circle.

    God exists because Obective Morals exists because God exists.

    So you assumed the conclusion you wanted to prove right as true. I can understand why you are not convinced.

    But it you start that kind of arguments, you will never get to any intelligent conclusion.
     
  6. Irwin Hawkins

    Irwin Hawkins Member

    120
    +1
    Hey Freodin, I do happen to know something about animals since I grew up as a country boy; I am a little older now; I just turned 69. Can you give the reason people are ask to have dogs, and cat's neutered, and spayed? I don't want to get into pornographic issues here; but when a female dog is ready to go, everymale in the country will take his turn if he gets a chance. Well, ofcourse human beings do the same thing if they don't have any "morals"; and without GOD in a persons life; anything you can get away with is moral. Don't try to tell me that an animal has the same brain that we human beings do. Man was created in the image of GOD; not "any other animal".

    With the love of Jesus Christ.
     
  7. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

    753
    +2
    Maybe I wasn't clear enough ...

    It isn't "God exists because objecitve morals exist because God exists."

    Objective morals exist, and I say that everyone in the world can know that to be true regardless of their society. You asked how objective morals got there, and I said that they were placed there by God. You then said that they were no longer objective because they were placed there. But then I should have been clearer and said that objective morals have been around as long as God has, and God, by definition, is infinite.

    I wasn't saying this in order to define the objective morals, but in order to show you how they can indeed be objective when God placed them there.

    Thus, morals are objective and they cannot be so unless God is their originator.

    [edit: I'll be gone for next week, so I wont be participating in this thread till I'm back. God bless!]
     
  8. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,588
    Atheist
    VM:
    I understand what you are aiming at, but let´s revert to your original post:

    1. Objective morals cannot exist unless God exists.
    2. Objective morals do exist.

    Conclusion: God exists

    So your conclusion is "God exists", but to come to this conclusion you have to assume "God exists".
    This is circular logic at its best.

    You are contradicting yourself. Either objective morals have been around infinite, or they were placed/invented by God, which is only possible at a later time.

    Hope to see you when you are back. If this thread is not around any more, please post it anew. This is a discussion I want to continue.
    Have fun whatever you do!

    Irwin:
    So you think it is wrong for cats, dogs and other animals to procreate freely? Why should they adhere to a human moral code?
     
  9. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +173
    Protestant
    Single
    ok, subsitute the word "stealing" into "taking without asking", isn't that the same thing? lying, pretending that one hasn't done it, the action of "taking without asking" is inborn in all of us. oh, in another world, selfish greed.
     
  10. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,588
    Atheist
    Lying is a learned action, "selfish greed" I can accept as inborn.
    A child has no experience beyond his own, it knows only his own needs. These needs it tries to satisfy.
    That this is not always "right" is something the child has to LEARN.
     
  11. strubenuff

    strubenuff New Member

    46
    +0
    Christian
    I have to agree with Freodin. VM, you claim objective morals exist without proof. Examining the vast array of subjective morals through different societies throughout time, it's hard for me to see how anyone could claim that humans objectively agree on anything (ie-murder is "wrong"). Furthermore, we know one's morals change depending on the environment in which you grew up, and I'll be the first to deny objective morality from my personal background (by that I mean I feel no sense of guilt for my actions and don't regard anything as "bad." However, I do feel there are actions which are detrimental to my or others preservation, and to that of society as a whole.) Furthermore, you refuse to the evolutionary benefits of not randomly injuring/murdering your own kind. I guarantee you it's better for a species to have a stable population that randomly destroy itself. The conclusion that "god exists" is erroneous: Premise one and two have both been shown to be false.
     
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