Morality, good and bad, right and wrong, Ethics, Virtues...

[Neogaia777]

Morality... Good and Bad... Right and Wrong...

We don't really know for sure exactly, in black and white, what "Morality" is, and, the deeper we get into and explore it, the less Black and White it becomes, and the Gray area grows... Perhaps we "can't know"...

But, What is Ethical, and embracing what is ethical, or "virtuous", will make us "good" and cause us to "forsake" the bad... Will make us "moral"... Without even having to know the "difference" between Good and Bad, Right or Wrong, or "Morality"...

(Isaiah 7:15,16) "He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject (forsake)(leave behind) the wrong (bad) and choose (embrace) the right (good), for before the boy knows enough to reject (forsake) (leave behind) the wrong (bad) and choose (embrace) the right (good), the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Notice it is not by knowing or trying to know the "difference" "between" the good and bad, at least not by "knowing" (or having a knowledge or awareness of) "both" the good and bad... But, by "choosing" or embracing the good (the knowledge of) (what is virtuous), and "rejecting" or forsaking or leaving behind (the knowledge or awareness of) the bad... NOT by "knowing" both, but embracing one and forsaking the other...

What is virtuous...? Is what is virtuous, is what is ethical...?

I came up with this list a while back and I think it lists many virtues...

Lord, grant us, give to us, let us be showing toward you, Faith, Hope, Love, Trust, Truth, Honesty, Patience, Peace, Serenity, Joy, Happiness, Goodness, Thankfulness, Gratefulness, Virtue, Integrity, Strength, Courage, Endurance, Wisdom, Self-control, Selflessness, Satisfaction, Fulfillment, Contentment, Wholeness, Completeness, Bliss, Grace, Mercy, Gentleness, Empathy, Forgiveness, Understanding, Absolution, Acceptance...

Lord, show toward us, (and let us be showing toward you and others), Long-suffering Kindness, Purity, Meekness, Mildness, Humbleness, Lowliness, Gentleness, Tenderness, Generousity, and showing Humility and dependent and trusting upon you, in Love.

Lord, show toward us, Salvation, Redemption, Forgiveness, Reconciliation with You, Righteousness, Justice, Discernment, Guidance, Direction, Purpose...

Lord help us be Zealous for you, and your will, and the good news, and the good of others, Certainty and Confidence, in our Convictions and Beliefs about you... Positivity and a Positive Spirit, and Sureness in you... Genuine Concern for others, Optimism in the things to come, Genuine Affection for/toward you, ourselves, and others, Genuine Devotion, and Tenderness of Heart...

Unity in Us, in line with your will, Help us to Accurate and Authentic and Correct and Legitimate, and genuine in ourselves and the things about you, Let us face fate with fortitude practicing forebearance and tolerance and be submissive and always yielding to your will and help us be persistent with others in our beliefs about you.

These are some... Can any of you help with others...?

What is virtuous...? Is what is virtuous, is what is ethical...?

Ideas...?

Comments on what was said...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Morality... Good and Bad... Right and Wrong...

We don't really know for sure exactly, in black and white, what "Morality" is, and, the deeper we get into and explore it, the less Black and White it becomes, and the Gray area grows... Perhaps we "can't know"...

But, What is Ethical, and embracing what is ethical, or "virtuous", will make us "good" and cause us to "forsake" the bad... Will make us "moral"... Without even having to know the "difference" between Good and Bad, Right or Wrong, or "Morality"...

(Isaiah 7:15,16) "He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject (forsake)(leave behind) the wrong (bad) and choose (embrace) the right (good), for before the boy knows enough to reject (forsake) (leave behind) the wrong (bad) and choose (embrace) the right (good), the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Notice it is not by knowing or trying to know the "difference" "between" the good and bad, at least not by "knowing" (or having a knowledge or awareness of) "both" the good and bad... But, by "choosing" or embracing the good (the knowledge of) (what is virtuous), and "rejecting" or forsaking or leaving behind (the knowledge or awareness of) the bad... NOT by "knowing" both, but embracing one and forsaking the other...

What is virtuous...? Is what is virtuous, is what is ethical...?

I came up with this list a while back and I think it lists many virtues...

Lord, grant us, give to us, let us be showing toward you, Faith, Hope, Love, Trust, Truth, Honesty, Patience, Peace, Serenity, Joy, Happiness, Goodness, Thankfulness, Gratefulness, Virtue, Integrity, Strength, Courage, Endurance, Wisdom, Self-control, Selflessness, Satisfaction, Fulfillment, Contentment, Wholeness, Completeness, Bliss, Grace, Mercy, Gentleness, Empathy, Forgiveness, Understanding, Absolution, Acceptance...

Lord, show toward us, (and let us be showing toward you and others), Long-suffering Kindness, Purity, Meekness, Mildness, Humbleness, Lowliness, Gentleness, Tenderness, Generousity, and showing Humility and dependent and trusting upon you, in Love.

Lord, show toward us, Salvation, Redemption, Forgiveness, Reconciliation with You, Righteousness, Justice, Discernment, Guidance, Direction, Purpose...

Lord help us be Zealous for you, and your will, and the good news, and the good of others, Certainty and Confidence, in our Convictions and Beliefs about you... Positivity and a Positive Spirit, and Sureness in you... Genuine Concern for others, Optimism in the things to come, Genuine Affection for/toward you, ourselves, and others, Genuine Devotion, and Tenderness of Heart...

Unity in Us, in line with your will, Help us to Accurate and Authentic and Correct and Legitimate, and genuine in ourselves and the things about you, Let us face fate with fortitude practicing forebearance and tolerance and be submissive and always yielding to your will and help us be persistent with others in our beliefs about you.

These are some... Can any of you help with others...?

What is virtuous...? Is what is virtuous, is what is ethical...?

Ideas...?

Comments on what was said...?

God Bless!

Virtues are "treasures in/from heaven", or the "things above", or are "things of the spirit"... "Walking in the spirit" is embracing virtues and making them a part of you and practicing them... A good kind of desire, or lust, is desiring/lusting after for these things, over say, the desires/lusts of the flesh... (Galatians 5:16) (Galatians 5:25) (Romans 8:1) (Romans 8:4)...

I found this:

Virtue, by definition, is the moral excellence of a person. A morally excellent person has a character made-up of virtues valued as good. He or she is honest, respectful, courageous, forgiving, and kind, for example. Because of these virtues or positive character traits, he or she is committed to doing the right thing no matter what the personal cost, and does not bend to impulses, urges or desires, but acts according to values and principles. Some might say that good qualities are innate and developed through good parenting, which they are, but we’re not perfect. Virtues need to be cultivated to become more prevalent and habitual in daily life. With the habit of being more virtuous, we take the helm of our own life, redirecting its course towards greater fulfillment, peace and joy.

Why Practice Virtues?

Virtues are universal and recognized by all cultures as basic qualities necessary for our well-being and happiness. Necessary because when we practice virtues and build the “character muscle,” we will attract what may have been missing in our life such as fulfilling relationships, achievement of meaningful goals, and happiness. The moment we declare, “I am persevering to achieve this goal in spite of all obstacles, self-doubt and fear,” a shift occurs where we naturally become more focused, determined, and courageous, leading us to success.

Often we know that it takes perseverance to reach our goals, and we still never get there. We know if we forgive someone then we may not be as angry and uptight, and we know it takes courage to accomplish great things. So why then, if we know what to do, do we still stay stuck? Because we have not yet consciously and boldlyapplied a virtue to a given situation so as to alter its outcome, from what has always been to what can be. Here are some examples where practicing a virtue in a given situation shapes an outcome:

• Discipline enables a person to achieve the goal of running a 25-mile race, creating better health.
• Kindness towards someone who is having a bad day can make him or her smile and build rapport.
• Creativity can result in an idea that changes how people relate to one another such as social media.
• Trust in a relationship fosters dependability and intimacy, creating valuable, meaningful relationships.
• Gratitude in a job loss can shift our focus from feeling low to how we can have a new, more fulfilling career.
• Service to others can change lives, better neighborhoods and create stronger nations.

Becoming More Virtuous People

We know we are becoming more virtuous people, not only because of the results above, but also because of the way other people respond to us. Our friends, families, co-workers and neighbors will trust and rely on us. They will come to us for guidance and help, and will want to be around us because we inspire them to be better people. We will be known as people with exceptional character who make the right choices and strive for excellence in all we do. Can life be lived any better?

In summary, the practice of virtues allows us to develop our potential, and live a more purposeful, better life; a life not ordinary but extraordinary. Becoming more virtuous people attracts great things to us; it’s a certainty.

God Bless!

 

[Inkfingers]

Loving truth and knowledge more than you love self and ignorance.

 

[Larniavc]

Those virtues sound reasonable.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Those virtues sound reasonable.

They don't to me. Or, at least, only some of them do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Neogaia777]

They don't to me. Or, at least, only some of them do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Please, say which ones don't sound reasonable or good to you and why, and let us discuss them, so that, we can come to/up with a list of virtues we can all follow and agree with... Also, (it would also be helpful to) please explain which ones sound reasonable and why, so we can come to an agreement, for that is part or a lot of the purpose and why I created this thread...

Whoever else out there wants to participate in this (goal), please take part in it, please...

God Bless!

 

[Strivax]

Morality... Good and Bad... Right and Wrong...

Comments on what was said...?

God Bless!

So, I think most of us know really the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, virtue and vice. In most cases that confront most of us, most of the time, most decent people (and I think most people are decent) have enough sympathy and empathy with others to know what morality requires of us. And if we don't, there are plenty who will tell us! 90% of the time, conscience and gut reaction are sufficient guides. Shades of gray belong to the 10% of difficult cases the philosophical field of ethics deals with; but, if having surveyed that ground and being still in doubt, just consider that all moral goodness arises out of love, and all moral evil out of the absence of love.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[durangodawood]

They don't to me. Or, at least, only some of them do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Referring to these virtues?

• Discipline
• Kindness
• Creativity
• Trust
• Gratitude
• Service

 

[Strivax]

Of all these alleged virtues, seems to me that only kindness really hits the spot. Creativity is a talent, not a virtue. And the rest strike me as an attempt to smuggle in conventional christian respectability to a system of qualities that really ought to be objective, and universally applicable irrespective of belief. So, one might have courage, justness, honesty, reliability, independence, generosity, integrity, civility, etc, as virtues, these and other such traits being admired across history and geography whatever the religion.

Cheers, Strivax

 

[Neogaia777]

So, I think most of us know really the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, virtue and vice. In most cases that confront most of us, most of the time, most decent people (and I think most people are decent) have enough sympathy and empathy with others to know what morality requires of us. And if we don't, there are plenty who will tell us! 90% of the time, conscience and gut reaction are sufficient guides. Shades of gray belong to the 10% of difficult cases the philosophical field of ethics deals with; but, if having surveyed that ground and being still in doubt, just consider that all moral goodness arises out of love, and all moral evil out of the absence of love.

Best wishes, Strivax.

What about "difficult times" creating a lot of difficult cases... Times like in WWII in Nazi Germany, and people who disobeyed the authorities and helped Jews and lied to the Nazi's about it... What about times like the Bible speaks of, when the financial system is redesigned, not worshiping or taking the mark of the beast, and dying because of it, and some doing it out of fear of death and/or desire to have and be able to have money to buy and sell, and live...?

I really like this: "consider that all moral goodness arises out of love, and all moral evil out of the absence of love."

Seems great, on the surface...?

But, I had these questions arise thinking about it, however...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...st-way-to-love-people-in-a-godly-way.7962971/

Just "Loving" someone, the way you'd typically think anyway, may not be what's "best" for them, or what will "truly help" them... You may have to say something that they, and most of the time "you" also, do not "like" or do not "want" to say... It may "hurt" you to do so... But, your doing what is "best" and just being loving, in the way you'd typically think, and even being "kind" all the time, may not be what's "best"... And, what's "best" is usually always more difficult (for me anyway) cause it usually hurts me and them, but you know, that you know, that you know, it is what's "best" in the end... Some would call this "Agape" or self-sacrificial love, the way God perhaps "Loves"...

I only know, I'll give you an example, I spent most of my life, loving my kids, my spouse, and others in the typical kind of way you'd think of loving people... And, it only seemed to "make things worse", and I had created "monsters" of both my spouse and kids, in the end... I was to weak back then and didn't know any other way... I catered to them, even cowered to them, and basically "bowed" to them and tried my best to "pacify" them and their behaviors when they acted out, and made sure I never ever did anything (God forbid) to "upset" them... I tried to never, ever say anything mean or hurtful and was always meek, mild, gentle, and (I thought loving) and very kind toward them...

As I said, it made "monsters" out of them... They got "spoiled" (my wife and kids) My kids are grown now, and my wife (were working on things again)... But, they all now have this "pre-conceived" notion that that is how "everybody" in the whole entire world "ought" to love and treat them... I have learned now, that I did them a great "disservice"... I did not prepare them for reality... Now, most of them can't have or maintain any human relationship for very long...

Anyway, I "have to" and am learning differently now (still in the process)...

God Bless!

 

[Strivax]

I am not saying that everything that arises out of 'love' (which can get distorted through human frailty) is morally good. I am only saying that everything that is morally good, arises out of love.

As for the making of 'monsters', well, judging by your post, it was not you who were at fault for loving, but they, for lacking such love. We cannot make people monsters through loving them; they must bear the bulk of the responsibility for how they are, and their way of being.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Neogaia777]

re-posting...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Referring to these virtues?

• Discipline
• Kindness
• Creativity
• Trust
• Gratitude
• Service

Considering the latest of my reply, I'd have to include patience on that list.

Out of those listed "virtues" (and the previous post has more), I'd only recognize discipline, kindness, and creativity as legitimate virtues.

Regarding trust, unless one is simply telling someone to "relax" (not to be neurotic) in a relationship instead of being constantly suspicious for no reason at all, this is a shaky virtue. Sometimes one has good reason to be suspicious, and at that point trust becomes a vice. Become too trusting, and you will be taken advantage of.

Gratitude may be a beneficial practice, but I don't see how it is a virtue. Sure, be thankful for what you have and thank others for their kindness, but it is ridiculous to be grateful for downward changes in fortune.

Service as a virtue is just the worship of the false idol of selflessness.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

For me its rooted in brain science, which is a highly complex system of making conscious life the root of all value talk like "good" and "bad". These are terms related to reward and avoidance centres. And linked to things like collective sociability on the positive side, or on the other hand to pain experiences. As for virtues I am not that type to list, I literally cant remember them, never mind try to plan to put them into practice. So I take a more "flowing water" approach to life.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Personality traits such as moodiness or open-mindedness are linked to the shape of one's brain, a study said Wednesday.

Researchers said they found a striking correlation between structural brain differences and five main personality types.

Read more at: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-01-nasty-nice-links-personality-brain.html#jCp

 

[Neogaia777]

Personality traits such as moodiness or open-mindedness are linked to the shape of one's brain, a study said Wednesday.

Researchers said they found a striking correlation between structural brain differences and five main personality types.

Read more at: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-01-nasty-nice-links-personality-brain.html#jCp

Cool, interesting... Thanks for posting it...

Open-hearted as well...

God Bless!

 

[Paradoxum]

Generally, respect people who don't violate others.

 

[Neogaia777]

Personality traits such as moodiness or open-mindedness are linked to the shape of one's brain, a study said Wednesday.

Researchers said they found a striking correlation between structural brain differences and five main personality types.

Read more at: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-01-nasty-nice-links-personality-brain.html#jCp

How does that science, fit into this science...?

Psychoneuroimmunology (PNI) Psychoendoneuroimmunology (PENI) Psychoneuroendocrinoimmunology (PNEI)

God Bless!

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Neogaia777...


I'm not sure but personality may have effects like if you are aggressive natured, or are introverted etc.

Then, in the wrong situations encounters might trigger a stress response which weakens the immune system AFAIK. So, becoming self aware, then you might create a toolbox of skills to cope with your "temperament-world interaction."

See below for mathematical theories of stress management in mental illness.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Sorry if this is a bit spammy but:

Also regarding brain science and mental health I am finding this quote below really significant.

I love neoroethics, or IOW the science of how we can view morally relevant psychology (eg inner peace) in terms of neural activity (eg in the parasympathetic nervous system)


I am mentioning it because of the brain aspect I introduced to the thread

This relates to goodness in the form of mental health, and of the prevention of illness. A bifurcation is a change in behaviour, like for instance in retirement, you leave work and evolve a new pattern of habits. Or scientific medicine could be a bifurcation point in the treatment of illness in general. Or if you're an amputee, then you can no longer play basketball etc:

" Bifurcation theory is a common method for the analysis of nonlinear systems. Bifurcation is an abrupt qualitative change in the behavior of the system. The change may be slight or catastrophic. A parameter value at which a bifurcation occurs is called bifurcation point.4 We hypothesize that the functional state of schizophrenic patients, because of their genetic predisposition, is located in the vicinity of a bifurcation point. In this situation, a moderate stress in life-events may induce a qualitative change in the behavior of the system; that is, bifurcation occurs, and the stability of the system may change. This can be equivalent to the onset of disease or its relapse. It seems that the pharmacological medications try to return the system to its stable state, preserve this stability, and prevent aggravation of the symptoms. In this context, it is important to take advantage of proper behavioral therapies to keep the system more stable when exposed to stressful events."

http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.23.2.jnpe11