• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Moral Influence and Moral Example Theories of Atonement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mcarans, May 15, 2019.

  1. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    And?
     
  3. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Some Christians may not have heard of those theories so I explained them.
     
  4. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Some Christians may not have heard of those theories so I explained them.

    (Sorry for the duplicate comment which I can't find an option to delete.)
     
  5. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    I see.
    So you're going to post all of them?
    It's a good idea.

    I find that each theory has interesting elements to it,,,
    But no one theory is complete.

    I like the cristus Victor and satisfaction theories and also the ransome theory.
    Don't ask me to choose!
     
  6. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    Did you write the article?
    I just skimmed it,,,it's very comprehensive.
     
  7. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Sinner Supporter

    +3,544
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
  8. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That's odd. You don't need a Reddit account just to view the post. I just checked and I could see it without being logged in.
     
  9. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Sinner Supporter

    +3,544
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I can see the diagram, and a brief paragraph that ends with

    “He takes away sins because by the example of His most innocent life, He very readily draws all, who have not lost hope, to leave their sins and zealously to embrace righteousness and holiness.”

    Nothing further than that…maybe it is not a matter of logging in as I assumed; maybe it is something else either with my browser or something, but that it all I see.
     
  10. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Sorry that you're having trouble seeing the article. I like to keep my posts in one place and link from elsewhere, but since you can't see it, I copy it here:

    I summarise below the Moral Influence and Moral Example Theories of Atonement:

    Moral Influence Theory, developed by Peter Abelard (1079-1142), says that "Jesus died as the demonstration of God's love". Abelard believed that this demonstration should change our perceptions of God. Instead of seeing God as being offended, harsh, and judgmental, we would see Him as loving and turn to Him.

    On Romans 3:19-26, Abelard said: "our hearts should be enkindled by such a gift of divine grace, and true charity should not now shrink from enduring anything for him...(Jesus) frees us from slavery to sin, but also wins for us the true liberty of sons of God, so that we do all things out of love rather than fear".

    A variation on this theory, Moral Example, was advanced by Faustus Socinus in his work "De Jesu Christo servatore" in 1578. According to Socinus, Jesus' death offers us a perfect example of self-sacrificial dedication to God. "I hold, and think it to be the orthodox view, that Jesus Christ is our Savior because he announced to us the way of eternal salvation, confirmed, and in his own person, both by the example of his life and by rising from the dead, clearly showed it (eternal life), and will give that eternal life to us who have faith in him."

    Christ's death teaches us more than just how much God loves us, but also how we should live. "Christ takes away sins because by heavenly and most ample promises He attracts and is strong to move all men to penitence, whereby sins are destroyed...He takes away sins because by the example of His most innocent life, He very readily draws all, who have not lost hope, to leave their sins and zealously to embrace righteousness and holiness."
     
  11. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes I wrote it, using a couple of sources and simplifying it as much as possible.

    I will summarise the atonement theories that seem consistent with the theme of the subreddit (that Jesus character and nature of self giving love and power shown in weakness on the cross is a perfect revelation of God's character and nature).
     
  12. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    Don't you think all of the atonement theories would show this? Even the one I like the least (The Penal Substitution Theory) shows a loving Christ.
     
  13. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Regarding penal substitution, it depends how it is understood. Some theologians like NT Wright define it in such a way that it is compatible with other atonement theories (like Christus Victor which NT Wright broadly follows). However, I don't think these represent the commonly understood definition which has the Father pouring out his wrath on His Son, unable to forgive sins without a blood sacrifice (even though humans are called to do so). I agree that it shows a loving Christ willing to step in front of His Father's anger, but not so much a loving God.
     
  14. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    Agreed 100%.
    I've never heard NT Wright explain the Penal Sub. Theory. Will try to get it...maybe on YouTube.
    I exactly don't care for it BECAUSE it portrays a wrathful and vindictive God that requires blood.

    This idea didn't even exist until the reformation.
    I can't remember off hand which theory the Early Fathers ascribed to...Was it the moral infl theory?
     
  15. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I found something about this here: Guest Post: The Doctrine of the Atonement in the Early Greek Fathers
     
  16. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member

    +1,449
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
  17. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,830
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I would say this is included. But Jesus on the cross has removed our sins, by taking our punishment upon Himself. This is different than we leaving our sins because we are impressed with how loving Jesus is.

    Jesus on the cross got us forgiven, by His blood. Our leaving our sins, in response to Him, is not the same as Jesus forgiving us. But it is good to see how Jesus is loving and in response to leave our life of sin.

    @GodsGrace101 > our Apostle Paul says we have forgiveness of sins, by the blood of Jesus; so this is what one of our early church leaders has given us, in Canon Scripture > Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14. And Matthew wrote that Jesus says His blood was shed for the remission of sins > Matthew 26:28 < so, Jesus Himself says this. And the writer of Hebrews says there needs to be blood shed so sins can be remitted > Hebrews 9:22. So, Jesus and some number of early leaders say this.

    This is because of Jesus and all He has done, not because of whatever we have gotten ourselves to do. So, our response is not enough. We need how Jesus on the cross was the only One who could die right for us.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,830
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Jesus dying for us on the cross does show God's love for us >

    "But God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

    But this was needed in order to save us from God's wrath >

    "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Romans 5:9)

    There is God's wrath, and there is God's love > "consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you goodness, if you continue in His goodness." (in Romans 11:22)

    Jesus knows if there is hell. He knows how horrible hell is. So, I can see He considered it worthwhile to suffer like that, so we don't go to hell.

    So, yes, ones will say hell and wrath would mean God is not really loving and kind and "fair". So, ones do make up ideas against there being wrath and judgment and hell. But "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). So, how does this fit with such judgment, as hell????

    God is light. Sunlight is good. But sunshine can do damage to things which have the wrong nature for being in the sunshine. Sunlight can do good to your skin so it can produce vitamin D for your health, if I remember right, but a worm on the sidewalk will be burned and paralyzed by the UV rays of that same sunshine.

    Also, a plant with unhealthy roots will dry out and become hardened in the sunshine, while that same sunshine will cause a healthy plant to draw up water and grow and mature > Romans 9:18.

    So, your nature has a lot to do with who and how God is, for you.

    And we all "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul does say, in Ephesians 2:3. So, all of us have needed Jesus to go to the cross for us. We needed how He alone is able to influence God for our sake. In our nature, "we were enemies" >

    "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (in Romans 5:10).

    And Jesus acted first, not waiting for us to be influenced or to respond to Him. He did all we can not do for our own selves!

    So > @GodsGrace101 > this is what I find our early leader Paul has given.

    So, most of all is how we needed Jesus on the cross to influence God > another early leader, our Apostle John, says this which I think means this >

    "For He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

    So, Jesus was first about pleasing our Father to reconcile with us. And Paul says God was in Jesus, "reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them" (in 2 Corinthians 5:19). So, on Calvary we have how God was influencing Himself.

    And in our nature as children of wrath, it was not our nature to honor Jesus. But we needed God to do in us all we need.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  19. mcarans

    mcarans Member

    290
    +60
    Denmark
    Non-Denom
    Married
    BTW, feel free to join the subreddit if this kind of post is of interest to you.
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,830
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Our Apostle Paul does say >

    "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

    So, yes Jesus on the cross is our example to follow. And while Jesus went through that sacrifice for our Father, Jesus was sweet about it > "a sweet-smelling aroma". And I consider this was influence on God, to please Him sweetly to reconcile with us and forgive us.

    Therefore, we so need to do our sacrificing sweetly in Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

    So, this moral example is not only about what we do and the quantity of our sacrificing, but it is about the quality :) Also, it is about how to relate in love > as another early leader, our Apostle Peter does say >

    "when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;" (in 1 Peter 2:23)
     
Loading...