Moral Dilemma

[2PhiloVoid]

Sure, I'm all for chatting respectfully. Would you mind if I ask what particular sub-group of Christian you are a part of?

Seriously, I am in the "Christian Church." I know that sounds cliche, but when you drive through town, and you see something like, St. Mike's Cathedral, you know you probably passed a Roman Catholic church. Then if you pass another one, maybe named Fort Knox Presbyterian, you know you passed a Presbyterian church. But then, there's this little church down the way....you know you've seen it, but you're not sure that you've ever seen anyone actually parked there, and it's named something like Forest Acres Christian Church, then you've just passed one like mine. Then, there's also the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ.

Here's a link that I started yesterday here at CF.

Are we really 'Restoring' what other Christians aren't?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Seriously, I am in the "Christian Church." I know that sounds cliche, but when you drive through town, and you see something like, St. Mike's Cathedral, you know you probably passed a Roman Catholic church. Then if you pass another one, maybe named Fort Knox Presbyterian, you know you passed a Presbyterian church. But then, there's this little church down the way....you know you've seen it, but you're not sure that you've ever seen anyone actually parked there, and it's named something like Forest Acres Christian Church, then you've just passed one like mine. Then, there's also the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ.

Ok. I was asking because I really like visiting other people's churches and understanding what that particular group's beliefs are. Hence my visiting of dozens of different Christian denominations, plus some non-Christian groups.

Here's a link that I started yesterday here at CF.

Are we really 'Restoring' what other Christians aren't?

Cool, I'll check it out and get back to you in just a minute here...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But which particular variety? There are are great variety of beliefs within the Christian umbrella.

For example--
Which books do you believe in the Bible?
Do you believe in sola scriptura?
What do you believe is required for salvation?
How does a person determine what is True?
Are you Armanian or Calvinist or other?

It's a mix--probably somewhere in the middle between Arminian and Calvinist. We often are called 'Campbellites.' We (except me) tend to hold exclusively to the Bible itself in 66 (Protestant) books. I suppose we are 'sola scriptura,' but as for myself, I'm more 'Prima Scriptura.'

Requirements for Salvation? Belief in Jesus, Repentance of Sin, and Baptism. Off the top of my head, I can't think of other requirements.

How does a person determine what is True? In my denomination, that will typically be a more fundamentalist reference to 'whatever is clearly in the Bible.' As for me, since I'm a philosopher, truth is much, much more nuanced than that. So, I have to keep a low profile at my church.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's a mix--probably somewhere in the middle between Arminian and Calvinist. We often are called 'Campbellites.' '

Cool. I like Campbellites.

We (except me) tend to hold exclusively to the Bible itself in 66 (Protestant) books. I suppose we are 'sola scriptura,' but as for myself, I'm more 'Prima Scriptura.'

Isn't it amazing the variety of beliefs even in the same literal congregation?

Requirements for Salvation? Belief in Jesus, Repentance of Sin, and Baptism. Off the top of my head, I can't think of other requirements.

How does a person determine what is True? In my denomination, that will typically be a more fundamentalist reference to 'whatever is clearly in the Bible.' As for me, since I'm a philosopher, truth is much, much more nuanced than that. So, I have to keep a low profile at my church.

Thank you, those were very informative answers.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Cool. I like Campbellites.

Isn't it amazing the variety of beliefs even in the same literal congregation?

Yes, it is amazing. I think the Lord left a number of things open to interpretation and/or for a variety of applications, so difference doesn't always mean "heresy."

Thank you, those were very informative answers.

You're welcome. Any time. I'd ask you questions in return,.....but I'm afraid too. I don't want to ruin a good thing we have going here, Jane, and we're sitting in the middle of the Marriage thread after all rather than Controversial Theology (or whatever it's called over in that other section.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Jane_Doe]

You're welcome. Any time. I'd ask you questions in return,.....but I'm afraid too. I don't want to ruin a good thing we have going here, Jane, and we're sitting in the middle of the Marriage thread after all rather than Controversial Theology (or whatever it's called over in that other section.)

Oh- true. We could go to "Christianity and World Religion" or just PM. Which would you like?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh- true. We could go to "Christianity and World Religion" or just PM. Which would you like?

Oh yeah, I forgot about Christianity and World Religion. We can chat there.

 

[Dave-W]

Requirements for Salvation? Belief in Jesus, Repentance of Sin, and Baptism. Off the top of my head, I can't think of other requirements.

Don't forget the mandatory 5 points of every worship service: preaching, communion, fellowship, prayer and the offering. One loses salvation if that all is not done weekly.

Oh - if you are on the other side of the Stone - Campbell Restoration movement, you CANNOT have any instruments in use during a worship service. (the only difference I have found between the Church of Christ and the Christian Church).

 

[Dave-W]

Cool. I like Campbellites.

There were notable connections between early Stone-Campbell Restorationists and the early Mormon movement.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Don't forget the mandatory 5 points of every worship service: preaching, communion, fellowship, prayer and the offering. One loses salvation if that all is not done weekly.

Oh - if you are on the other side of the Stone - Campbell Restoration movement, you CANNOT have any instruments in use during a worship service. (the only difference I have found between the Church of Christ and the Christian Church).

My church doesn't require any of those things, so if this is a caricature of my church, you'll need to do a bit more research, Dave.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There were notable connections between early Stone-Campbell Restorationists and the early Mormon movement.

Notable connections?

 

[Dave-W]

My church doesn't require any of those things, so if this is a caricature of my church, you'll need to do a bit more research, Dave.

No caricature. I attended an instrumental CoC in highschool and have been on CoC/Christian Church discussion boards. (even lurked at PreacherFiles for a while)

I learned a lot about CoC doctrine (including the 5 elements of the service) and their basic hermenutic CENI. (Command, approved Example, Necessary Inference)

Another thing I found is that many of the congregations do not expound on these doctrines even though they are there. On one dedicated CoC discussion board, only about half of the participants had ever heard of CENI, although most recognized the approach.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No caricature. I attended an instrumental CoC in highschool and have been on CoC/Christian Church discussion boards. (even lurked at PreacherFiles for a while)

I learned a lot about CoC doctrine (including the 5 elements of the service) and their basic hermenutic CENI. (Command, approved Example, Necessary Inference)

Another thing I found is that many of the congregations do not expound on these doctrines even though they are there. On one dedicated CoC discussion board, only about half of the participants had ever heard of CENI, although most recognized the approach.

Being that these churches are all over the board in practice, and being that I belong to the Middle-ground Christian Church, (instrumental, even rock instrumental), I don't think they adhere to all of this since they are an independent Christian Church. Besides, being the philosopher that I am, if someone tries to press me on dogmatics, I'll just take them to task.

Any other gripes about my 'denomination'?

 

[Dave-W]

Any other gripes about my 'denomination'?

No gripes. Just observations and some analysis. I have 2 kid brothers who are in a CoC (changed from vocal music only about 10 years ago) any my youngest bro is their worship leader.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No gripes. Just observations and some analysis. I have 2 kid brothers who are in a CoC (changed from vocal music only about 10 years ago) any my youngest bro is their worship leader.

That's good. I certainly do not feel obligated or beholden to the Campbells, especially not in any way resembling how Luther is for Lutherans, or Calvin is for Reformed, or the Pope is for Catholics, or the Patriarchs are for Orthodox. For me, Christian faith is a mode of exploring the world, exploring what Christ offers each of us, and exploring who God is and all that He will allow us to understand. This is one small reason why I like 'some' of the elements of the Christian Church, particularly the No Required Creed and the Ecumenical Openness to at least sincerely hold hands with other Christians. At least, this is how I approach it, and if some in my own denomination want to try to shake me from that, well ....... they're welcome to try.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Dave-W]

. At least, this is how I approach it, and if some in my own denomination want to try to shake me from that, we'll ....... they're welcome to try.

Cool. Have you ever lurked at the PreacherFiles website? You can get permanently banned (and your web addy blocked) for just asking the wrong question.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Cool. Have you ever lurked at the PreacherFiles website? You can get permanently banned (and your web addy blocked) for just asking the wrong question.

No. I've never heard of PreacherFiles website. And if they are that staunch or hard-headed, I probably wouldn't want to hang in that forum much anyway. I have another agenda, and it's called 'Freedom in Christ' (....but not the freedom that this world gives, obviously!)

 

[Dave-W]

nd if they are that staunch or hard-headed, I probably wouldn't want to hang in that forum much anyway. I

Understood. I only referenced it to show you how the extremes of the Campbelite Restoration movement operate.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Understood. I only referenced it to show you how the extremes of the Campbelite Restoration movement operate.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the extremes. One of my former pastors came out of the Church of Christ - Non-Instrumental. He got kicked out by them because, as he told me over various conversations we had, he "woke up" one day to realize that he had been sold a very, very rigid epistemic framework, almost cult-like in it's structure. And when he dared to open his mouth and suggest that "Hey, maybe the Bible doesn't tell us (such and such)," then he was brought literally before a kind of Tribunal and ousted.

 

[Dave-W]

And when he dared to open his mouth and suggest that "Hey, maybe the Bible doesn't tell us (such and such)," then he was brought literally before a kind of Tribunal and ousted.

I think the same thing happened with the pastor of my brother's congregation.