Montreal Massacre

[BOJAX]

although I was only 6 at the time and really don't know anything about it, it was 16 years ago on Dec 6 that 14 women were murdered l'Ecole polytechnique in montreal.
If you have any recollections of this please share.

 

[Jonathan David]

Thanks for posting this Bojax.

I remember it very clearly although I was only 12 years old at the time. I remember the news reports and I remember December 6th becoming a day of rememberance and action on violence against women. It has always seemed sad that many people can name Marc Lepine as the gunman but few can name even one of the fourteen women who was murdered.

They are (including age on December 6 1989):

Geneviève Bergeron, 21
Hélène Colgan, 23
Nathalie Croteau, 23
Barbara Daigneault, 22
Anne-Marie Edward, 21
Maud Haviernick, 29
Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31
Maryse Laganière, 25
Maryse Leclair, 23
Anne-Marie Lemay, 27
Sonia Pelletier, 23
Michèle Richard, 21
Annie St-Arneault, 23
Annie Turcotte, 21

It is important for us to remember that this wasn't just the act of a madman (although Marc Lepine was clearly not all there). He took the social teachings about gender, a woman's place, and a man's entitlement... and he enacted them in the most brutal, violent and extreme way that, to him, they logically allowed. Gendered violence remains an epidemic in this country and around the world.

The women of the Ecole Polytechnique must be remembered as must the countless other women who are affected by gendered violence. One thinks immediately of the women of Vancouver's downtown Eastside, the women on the Highway of Tears, the rapes of young indigenous women by a Prince George judge, and cases such as that of Helen Betty Osbourne... each an example of how colonialism has intersected with gender and had extrememly violent outcomes.

 

[Avatar]

I'm ashamed to say I'm one of those folks, JD, who knew Lepine's name but not the names of the young women whose lives he took. Thank you for your post, its very powerful.

 

[fieldy]

that's usually how it is. people remember the killer a lot more unless the victim was someone famous like the great john lennon.

 

[Jonathan David]

I'm ashamed to say I'm one of those folks, JD, who knew Lepine's name but not the names of the young women whose lives he took. Thank you for your post, its very powerful.

Not something to be ashamed of Avatar.... it's the way that it is presented in the media to us. He has a name and they are his 14 victims. But, if gendered violence is connected to dehumanization, it is important to "rehumanize" these women who are (names aside) such a large part of our national consciousness now.

 

[Avatar]

Gendered violence, I'm just so disgusted. In the last two days I had 2 occasions to intervene to stop rapes. That sounds incredible, I know.

I'm working now, full time, nights at a local hotel. Friday night a woman passed out drunk in the washroom, with her pants down. I had to physically remove a person who just felt he should be in that washroom.

Saturday night a drunken woman asked me to keep a guy away from her. He was trying to get her down to his room. I did.

I find myself being just as angry with the women who make themselves helpless through stupidity - alcohol. Both of those women would have had bad experiences if I hadn't intervened, And that's just 2 days!

I know this isn't relevant to what happened in Montreal, those women were blamess. But the larger societal problem of violence against women, and the punishment thereof, continues to be ineffective because of women's unwillingness to utilize society's mechanisms to exact justice against those who deviate from societal norms.

As in, 'Y'all don't want to throw the bums in jail'

 

[Jonathan David]

I have to disagree with you fairly strenuously here Avatar... on a couple of points.

1. This has everything to do with Montreal. They are both fueled by a man's sense of social/sexual entitlement and a view of women as being there to facilitate/not obstruct that entitlement.

2. Is it true that alcohol is often involved in sexual assault? Absolutely, it is. Alcohol is very often present... but it is never a victim's responsibility that they were assaulted. Look at physical assaults on men. Where do these things happen? Often.... bars, arenas... ie. places where there is booze involved. Do we tell men to stop going to bars or to stop drinking because that reduces their chance of getting beat up? No way. Do we hold them accountable when they do get beat up? Never. There is only one person responsible for any kind of assault.... the perpetrator. Women are not responsible for their assaults becausce they got drunk, nor are guys when then get beat up.

3. There are many reasons that a woman might be hesitant to call the police. Especially in a small community such as yours, it can be a very difficult thing to do. There are social stigmas attached, fear of having to go through with the prosecution (there are too many instances where police have further victimized the survivor through their questions and displays of doubt) and fear of the prospect of having to go through the trial process... which has not been a very friendly place either. Remember that it was a judge who was assaulting young girls in BC.... while this is an exception and in no way representative of behaviour, it is important to remember that sexism exists at all levels... even the court and police.

In Baltimore, Md. a 44 year old man was convicted of raping his 18-year-old female employee who was unconscious from drinking. County Circuit judge Thomas J. Bollinger said that finding an unconscious woman "was a dream come true for a lot of men." So, he went easy on the guy and sentenced him to probation. This happened in 1993.

A Canadian Man convicted of sodomizing and molesting his stepdaugher for more than 2 years was sentenced to only 23 months because, the judge said, he "spared her virginity."

In November 1998, a Nevada woman called 911 to report a rape. The police laughed and called her a liar. A few months later, the man she accused pleaded guilty to raping her. He also confessed to raping a teenage girl

The problem is not women refusing to report.... it is a system that does makes reporting very frightening for some women. If they do report, and go to trial, the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt" for a situation that likely happened between two people with no witnesses. It is very difficult to take a "he said, she said" situation and turn it into "beyond a reasonable doubt." DNA sampling makes this easier but for some of the collection of samples to take place, it requires that a woman go to the hospital before having a shower or washing clothes. These are two things (especially the shower) that many survivors report doing immediately after an assault.

Anyway, I am just saying, let us not lose focus here. The reason that gendered violence is a problem is that socialization has turned a lot of guys into *$#&*@*#s. Are there precautions that women can take? Yes. Should people be aware of their drinks so as to avoid drink spiking? Yes. Should people look out for each other at the bar? Yes. Is it ever a person's fault that somebody assaulted them? No.

P.S. I think that it's great that you were able to intervene. There are a vew poeple who are very lucky that you were there.

 

[draper]

Thank you for that post, Jon.

I saw an article about a website that has been started to keep the Highway of Tears stories alive when I was in Vancouver; that is a horrible story

I have a book about Helen Betty Osborne that was at my cottage this summer that I started reading out of boredom there, I never got around to finishing it but I actually ended up bringing it home -- I should finish it soon.

I'm not familiar with the story of the Prince George women, I may look into that later.

It's difficult to grasp all of the misogyny here in the West and Canada in particular and it is even harder to put it into a day-to-day context where we can understand it as an issue where we can make positive progress. I'm reminded of the poem written by that bishop that you sent me a while back -- I'll check for it later, I'm sure I saved it...but if not you should post it here.

Thanks for posting this Bojax.

I remember it very clearly although I was only 12 years old at the time. I remember the news reports and I remember December 6th becoming a day of rememberance and action on violence against women. It has always seemed sad that many people can name Marc Lepine as the gunman but few can name even one of the fourteen women who was murdered.

They are (including age on December 6 1989):

Geneviève Bergeron, 21
Hélène Colgan, 23
Nathalie Croteau, 23
Barbara Daigneault, 22
Anne-Marie Edward, 21
Maud Haviernick, 29
Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31
Maryse Laganière, 25
Maryse Leclair, 23
Anne-Marie Lemay, 27
Sonia Pelletier, 23
Michèle Richard, 21
Annie St-Arneault, 23
Annie Turcotte, 21

It is important for us to remember that this wasn't just the act of a madman (although Marc Lepine was clearly not all there). He took the social teachings about gender, a woman's place, and a man's entitlement... and he enacted them in the most brutal, violent and extreme way that, to him, they logically allowed. Gendered violence remains an epidemic in this country and around the world.

The women of the Ecole Polytechnique must be remembered as must the countless other women who are affected by gendered violence. One thinks immediately of the women of Vancouver's downtown Eastside, the women on the Highway of Tears, the rapes of young indigenous women by a Prince George judge, and cases such as that of Helen Betty Osbourne... each an example of how colonialism has intersected with gender and had extrememly violent outcomes.

 

[Jonathan David]

The poem that Draper is refering to was written by Archibishop Oscar Romero and is called "Prophets of a Future Not Our Own"

Prophets of a Future Not Our Own

It helps now and then to step back and take a long view.
The Kingdom is not only beyond our efforts,
it is beyond our vision.

We accomplish in our lifetime only a fraction
of the magnificent enterprise that is God’s work.
Nothing we do is complete, which is another way of
saying that the kingdom always lies beyond us.


No statement says all that could be said.
No prayer fully expresses our faith. No confession
brings perfection, no pastoral visit brings wholeness.
No program accomplishes the Church’s mission.
No set of goals an objectives include everything.

This is what we are about. We plant the seeds that one
day will grow. We water the seeds already planted
knowing that they hold future promise.
We lay foundations that will need further development.
We provide yeast that produces effects
far beyond our capabilities.

We cannot do everything, and there is a sense of
liberation in realizing this.
This enables us to do something, and to do it very well.
It may be incomplete, but it is a beginning,
a step along the way, an opportunity for the Lord’s
grace to enter and do the rest.
We may never see the end results, but that is the
difference between the master builder and the worker.

We are workers, not master builders, ministers, not
messiahs. We are prophets of a future not our own.

 

[Jonathan David]

Thank you for that post, Jon.

I saw an article about a website that has been started to keep the Highway of Tears stories alive when I was in Vancouver; that is a horrible story

I have a book about Helen Betty Osborne that was at my cottage this summer that I started reading out of boredom there, I never got around to finishing it but I actually ended up bringing it home -- I should finish it soon.

I'm not familiar with the story of the Prince George women, I may look into that later.

It's difficult to grasp all of the misogyny here in the West and Canada in particular and it is even harder to put it into a day-to-day context where we can understand it as an issue where we can make positive progress. I'm reminded of the poem written by that bishop that you sent me a while back -- I'll check for it later, I'm sure I saved it...but if not you should post it here.

I agree Draper... it is hard to grasp. We are taught that we live in an equal society... but that is just paper that says so. It is important to be aware of both the improvements that have been made and the work that remains to be done. The work that remains does not detract from the advances but neither do the advances mean that the work is not as urgent now as it was 100 years ago.

For info on Judge Ramsay: http://dawn.thot.net/judge_ramsay.html This is just the first thing that came up when I googled him... there is plenty out there if you don't like this source.... I don't even know who they are.

Men who are concerned should check out places like www.whiteribbon.ca or talk to your workplace, school, child's school, etc.... get the classes talking about gender and violence. Things can get better but, ultimately, if they are going to, we have to stop teaching men how to be "men" and start teaching them how to be real men.

 

[draper]

That is the one.

I think that the parts about understanding what we have the power to do, and where/when we have the power to do it are especially important when considering how we can change socially misogynistic views & actions when so many of the extreme ones (Montreal Massacre, Highway of Years, Osborne's murder..etc) can seen so drastic & overhelming at times.

 

[Avatar]

I apologize for my post. It was borne of frustrastion after a few rough nights. The victim is never responsible, I know. Again, I apologize.

 

[draper]

I apologize for my post. It was borne of frustrastion after a few rough nights. The victim is never responsible, I know. Again, I apologize.

Sometimes the victim can share responsibility. There's a difference responsibility and fault IMO, especially in this context.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1369010&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This is unique because the man claims to have been asleep, but suppose it was unambiguous that the man had made a choice to rape her.

This would clearly be an example of sexual assault. But look at the facts -- this woman met a stranger at a party, got drunk with him & then fell asleep with him. How can she NOT be partially responsible!? It borders on misandry to claim otherwise. I actually felt otherwise until I talked to some female friends about this and they all agreed that the woman has to share some fault, even in the hypothetical situation that the rape had been a definite choice -- and I couldn't disagree with their logic. One of my friends said the woman "asked for it" (a female friend) and while that may be a technically correct way of putting it, I would disagree with her because I think it frames the responsibility in a much more condescending light than it is actually in.

I am not at all trying to say that this particular case is not just as horrific & brutal as any other example of male to female violence. All of them, regardless of whether or not the victim of the assault is partly responsible for creating the circumstances are awful & tragic stories committed under morally reprehensible pretenses. I can't emphasize this enough. But to say that a woman is always going to be completely blameless is just not consistent with reality. People, including women, do irresponsible things & put themselves in positions that logic & responsibility would not agree with them being it.

I should also note that I think when you take assaults against women - sexual, physical, emotional, or however, these cases where the woman shares some of the responsibility are exceptionally rare & an absolutely tiny minority.

Anyways, I started off my post being very adamant...I've deleted like two or three full length paragraphs & reworded some things and added some things because I'm not sure if I'm in the right ballpark anymore. I think that some of what I am saying may be true and correct, but not in this context -- although I'm not even sure what context I mean when I say that, so I'll just hope you guys grasp what I am saying

So, if I am off-colour or flat out wrong in anything that I have said I apologize & look forward to being corrected or at least discussing it with people that are smarter than I am...this is a very sensitive issue and trying to argue any side really assertively is a lot like walking on eggshells; so again I apologize if anything I have said was wrong or offensive.

 

[draper]

On a side note, I was just playing around on Wikipedia looking at Lepine & some of the details of the murder & I found out the Hip wrote a song about it...very cool, I didn't know this. I love the way that they can so elegantly tell stories from Canadian history that are often times downright terrible & keep the memories of the stories alive through their music.

 

[Avatar]

I had some time last night to think about this, and I can't help but return to the idea of personal responsibility.

The world is what it is, a sometimes brutal place. And people need to interact with the world as best they can, to avoid life's brutality - to protect themselves.

When I see a female passed out in an alcohol stupor in a public space, I have to wonder why. Why did she allow herself to get to this state? Why does she think this isn't dangerous? Why will she be surprised when bad things follow?

I'm a glorified janitor for God's sake, not a law enforcement officer, yet here I am getting between people who've put themselves in harm's way and those who want to harm them. I'm worried that when the next incident happens - and it will - that I'm going to mash the guys face into the wall. And I won't exactly be pleased with the woman who made herself helpless either.

Folks here seem to be espusing the philosophy

"live as though the world is as it should be, to show it how it can be"

But people do bear some responsibilty when they put themselves in dangerous situations. Its not a surprise that there are bad folks out there. Its why we have locks on our doors.

 

[BOJAX]

I had some time last night to think about this, and I can't help but return to the idea of personal responsibility.

The world is what it is, a sometimes brutal place. And people need to interact with the world as best they can, to avoid life's brutality - to protect themselves.

When I see a female passed out in an alcohol stupor in a public space, I have to wonder why. Why did she allow herself to get to this state? Why does she think this isn't dangerous? Why will she be surprised when bad things follow?

I'm a glorified janitor for God's sake, not a law enforcement officer, yet here I am getting between people who've put themselves in harm's way and those who want to harm them. I'm worried that when the next incident happens - and it will - that I'm going to mash the guys face into the wall. And I won't exactly be pleased with the woman who made herself helpless either.

Folks here seem to be espusing the philosophy

"live as though the world is as it should be, to show it how it can be"

But people do bear some responsibilty when they put themselves in dangerous situations. Its not a surprise that there are bad folks out there. Its why we have locks on our doors.

agreed
i made a similar comment in the abortion topic in the christians only section

 

[Jonathan David]

Sometimes the victim can share responsibility. There's a difference responsibility and fault IMO, especially in this context.

I am not sure that I agree with you here. I think that the distinction is not about responsibility vs. fault.... rather it is about taking precautions/making risky choices vs. being responsible/at fault/blameworthy. I think this is the distinction and I agree, as I have posted, that there are precautions that can and should be taken.... sleeping drunk on a couch with a stranger is not cautious behaviour... to be sure. But, it is also not an act for which fault, blameworthiness or responsibility can be ascribed.

There is no direct correlation between sleeping on a couch with a stranger and being assaulted. An assault is an illegal and immoral act of another person. I have slept on couches, in beds and in tents with people who I have just met. Sometimes drunk, sometimes sober..... this is not a celebration of my great moral character.... it is what is to be demanded, expected and deserved.

In my old neighbourhood gas stations, convenience stores and fast food outlets were regular targets of robbers. If I went to one of these places at 2:00 AM, could it be said that I was not displaying cautious behaviour or that I was being "risky"? Sure it can. Does that mean that if I am assaulted by a robber, I am responsible/blameworthy/at fault? Absolutely not.

We know that you have a greater chance of dying on a highway than in an airplane. If I choose to drive to Vancouver rather than taking the amazing seat sale that would make it about the same price, and I get into an accident because some jerk is speeding, am I responsible? blameworthy? I certainly didn't take all the precautions... but I find it hard to suggest that I am responsible.

I know that these aren't perfect analogies, but you see my point? No person is responsible for being assaulted. Assaulting someone is a choice that is the sole responsibility of the perpetrator (unless once can raise the defence of automatism or another common law defence). In the case mentioned, nobody is responsible for the assault.... not the woman, not the man. It can be hard to imagine an assault without responsibility but I think that this is one. Having said that, if he now did the same thing, I think that he would be responsible.... having knowledge of one's condition should create a duty to warn others and/or remove one's self from the situations where one might be dangerous.

This would clearly be an example of sexual assault. But look at the facts -- this woman met a stranger at a party, got drunk with him & then fell asleep with him. How can she NOT be partially responsible!? It borders on misandry to claim otherwise. I actually felt otherwise until I talked to some female friends about this and they all agreed that the woman has to share some fault, even in the hypothetical situation that the rape had been a definite choice -- and I couldn't disagree with their logic. One of my friends said the woman "asked for it" (a female friend) and while that may be a technically correct way of putting it, I would disagree with her because I think it frames the responsibility in a much more condescending light than it is actually in.

Rape myths are common and prevalent. They serve to shift the blame from the perpetrator to the victim..... why were you wearing that skirt? why were you at that party? why didn't you fight back? why didn't you say no? you let him kiss you, what did you think would happen? you must have wanted it or you wouldn't have let it happen?etc? What each ignores is that the crime was committed by one person and one person only. I appreciate what is being said about the "real world" and maybe that speaks to "precautions" but I will not accept that we live in a world where by wearing a shirt that shows a belly button or by wearing a skirt that is above the knees somehow makes a woman responsible for someone else assaulting her. Rape myths are also disturbing because they have been so effectively inserted into people's consciousness.... you don't have to be a man to hold these beliefs. There are even plenty of survivors who question themselves and blame themselves for their assaults. I personally can't think of anything worse.

I am not at all trying to say that this particular case is not just as horrific & brutal as any other example of male to female violence. All of them, regardless of whether or not the victim of the assault is partly responsible for creating the circumstances are awful & tragic stories committed under morally reprehensible pretenses. I can't emphasize this enough. But to say that a woman is always going to be completely blameless is just not consistent with reality. People, including women, do irresponsible things & put themselves in positions that logic & responsibility would not agree with them being it.

I do know what you are saying Draper.... honest.... but it again comes back to when do we think that someone engaged in risky behaviour and when does that make them "responsible" for what someone else does to them. This conversation is also masking the fact that the vast majority (I think 87%) of sexual assaults happen between people who know one another at one of their houses. (you allude to this later on, I know... I just wanted to make it explicit) This is not walking down a dark downtown alley, drunk out of one's tree, wearing a short skirt and tube top.... where, while it is certainly risky behaviour, there is still no blame that attaches to the victim.

I should also note that I think when you take assaults against women - sexual, physical, emotional, or however, these cases where the woman shares some of the responsibility are exceptionally rare & an absolutely tiny minority.

that's where you allude to it

Anyways, I started off my post being very adamant...I've deleted like two or three full length paragraphs & reworded some things and added some things because I'm not sure if I'm in the right ballpark anymore. I think that some of what I am saying may be true and correct, but not in this context -- although I'm not even sure what context I mean when I say that, so I'll just hope you guys grasp what I am saying

So, if I am off-colour or flat out wrong in anything that I have said I apologize & look forward to being corrected or at least discussing it with people that are smarter than I am...this is a very sensitive issue and trying to argue any side really assertively is a lot like walking on eggshells; so again I apologize if anything I have said was wrong or offensive.

I don't think that you have been offensive... and I think that we agree more than we disagree... I just think that precision of language is VERY important here. To talk of responsibility is to suggest that the perpetrator is less than 100% responsible for the assault. It runs the risk of sounding as though the survivor "got what she deserved"... or at least "what she was asking for." Are there precautions that can be taken? Yes. Is a victim responsible for an assault whether or not she took those precautions? Not in my opinion, No.

 

[Jonathan David]

I had some time last night to think about this, and I can't help but return to the idea of personal responsibility.

The world is what it is, a sometimes brutal place. And people need to interact with the world as best they can, to avoid life's brutality - to protect themselves.

When I see a female passed out in an alcohol stupor in a public space, I have to wonder why. Why did she allow herself to get to this state? Why does she think this isn't dangerous? Why will she be surprised when bad things follow?

Hey Avatar.... I think that my response to Draper is basically a response to you too. Specifically the part about risk vs. responsibility.

I'm a glorified janitor for God's sake, not a law enforcement officer, yet here I am getting between people who've put themselves in harm's way and those who want to harm them. I'm worried that when the next incident happens - and it will - that I'm going to mash the guys face into the wall. And I won't exactly be pleased with the woman who made herself helpless either.

Yeah, I can understand that. From what I know of you, I understand that, for you, not acting is simply not an option so I can see how you would be frustrated at having to put yourself in a risky position where you might end up hurting someone or getting hurt yourself. But, I would urge you to allow the vast majority (if it can't be all) of your anger to be directed against the person who is about to assault someone.... not the person being attacked.

Folks here seem to be espusing the philosophy

"live as though the world is as it should be, to show it how it can be"

But people do bear some responsibilty when they put themselves in dangerous situations. Its not a surprise that there are bad folks out there. Its why we have locks on our doors.

Again, I don't think that a failure to be cautious creates reesponsibility for the criminal actions of another. It is not about living as though the world is how I would have it. I think that people should take precautions in some circumstances... but I will not blame a victim for a perpetrator's actions.

 

[Jonathan David]

agreed
i made a similar comment in the abortion topic in the christians only section

Can you elaborate? I imagine that it is just me being blind but I can't see the connection. Is it about action and outcome? If so, I would argue that having sex is an autonomous, freely-made choice... being assaulted isn't.... but I don't know if that is what you were going to say so I am sorry if I jumped the gun there.

 

[zoziw]

Again, I don't think that a failure to be cautious creates reesponsibility for the criminal actions of another. It is not about living as though the world is how I would have it. I think that people should take precautions in some circumstances... but I will not blame a victim for a perpetrator's actions.

And you are 100% right about that JD.

If you go to a self-defense class they will teach you things like the "buddy system" and how not to become a victim. If you ignore that advice you might put yourself at a greater risk of being assaulted in some fashion.

However, a person putting themself in a situation that someone else uses to victimize them does not shift any of the blame to the victim.

A woman who gets drunk and falls asleep on a bed with a guy who then proceeds to assault her is no less a victim and the man no less a criminal than in any other situation.

The law is that before you do something to someone else, whether we are talking about a boxing match or sex, you get their consent to do it. If you don't then you are breaking the law, not them.

While it is true that you can and should take precautions to guard your own safety, failure to do so does not lessen the crime committed against you nor reduce your right to justice as a victim.