Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)

Grip Docility

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Omniscience has always been downplayed by what is called Determinism, in my own personal opinion.

I personally believe that Determinism condescends God.... and removes His sovereignty.

I’ve lacked the words to convey this for many years now. But I’ll start with anchoring to Principles I agree with... that most all that study God, will understand.

1) God is active within time
2) God is Active Beyond all Time
3) God Knows All things. (All Knowing)

It’s number 3 where I do believe Determinism has flopped.

The underpinning argument to Determinism is that God knows all, thus all is decided in a linear fashion by God.

This limits God. I know it sounds really super awesome to have God dictating every second of everyone’s life, but this is actually contrary to Scripture. It is contrary to scripture because it has God flat responsible for Evil existing, Of His own desire and conception. It is also contrary to scripture, because God is actively responding to humanities decisions, vice the idea that He is going through the motions of pre-decided history.

Philosophical counterpoint... If God hadn’t created everything, Evil would not exist. God is Perfect and Good. It is within God’s creation we see Evil Born. But note, there always has been the possibility that God Created infinite possibilities... and desires to respond to those Infinite possibilities in a Relational fashion that genuinely fosters... Sincere Free Will! Thus, evil is genuinely born outside of God’s will and within the will of free creation. This distinguishing difference is imperative to comprehend.

The following reasoning will be enormously jarring to many... because it addresses the inferiority of Determinism in such a strong light, it proofs Determinism as heretical as Open Theism.

Determinism Limits God to being all knowing in a linear (UniDimensional) fashion by setting a play in motion, and going through said motions... as if we are in the midst of a re-run. This human thinking is so limited that it denies the very truth that we think in a very limited Dimensional sense.., while God clearly is capable of Omni-Dimensional Thinking.

Dimension - an aspect or feature of a situation, problem, or thing.


Strategists are multi-Dimensional thinkers...

Example... A horse was not shoed properly, due to the the lack of a single nail... Because the horse was not shoed properly, A Rider was thrown off the horse... Because the rider was delivering a crucial message, and was knocked out, the message never made it to the General’s hands. Because the General never received the message, the War was lost. Because the war was lost, Wickedness prevailed and an entire nation was enslaved... Because an entire nation was enslaved, an entire people became bitter....

Do you see how that works? A strategist realizes there are an infinite amount of possibilities... and thusly takes every small variance into account, and chooses a coarse of action that will move the outcome towards their will.

I’ll give you another example... Tamar! We see Tamar’s story specifically reveal Scientia Media at work!

God strikes Tamar’s first Husband Dead, because He’s Wicked.

Onan, the brother Of The smited man, is thus given to Tamar as husband. Onan refuses to impregnate Tamar, because by Hebrew Law, the Baby would be of His smited Brother’s namesake. Onan pulls out, spills the seed and again... BAM! He’s struck dead too!

Tamar is in the literal, DNA lineage of Jesus Christ! God was working with human free choice to tend His Son’s Physical Lineage.

How’s that for being a vine pruner?

Sovereign Determinist Omniscience States That God has to order Human History and Future to know Human History and Future.

Sovereign Free Will Omniscience States That God Knows All Free Will decisions that can/could ever be made, amidst their infinite possibilities... and responds to Creation in wisdom of these decisions and possibilities to accomplish His ultimate purpose, through a genuinely relationship orientated drive, Centered from Love!

Which is more Sovereign?

God controlling everything down to the last molecule to bring about His Will?

God responding sincerely and Lovingly to Free Will decisions made by creation that make up an infinite possibility of outcomes, with each passing moment, in such a way that draws creation closer and closer to the Creator?

Before closing... I’m going to express why Open Theism is wrong.... IMO... (It binds God to Time... and thusly denies that God is beyond time). It limits God’s Omniscience... to potential failures on God’s part.

Now... In closing... I’ll express why I think this is Theologically critical...

God created All Creation with infinite potential of choice and outcome. By doing this, God allowed for Creation to Choose Good or Bad. God’s provision of Free Will is a rationally Loving provision, as sincerity cannot exist without Freedom. Creations Failure is not indicative of God’s design, but the sincerity of the Freedom God provides.

Read that one more time, mull it over and really think about this;

Creations Failure is not indicative of God’s Desire for Creation to fail, but is indicative of the sincerity of the Freedom God fosters and provides out of Love.
 
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Grip Docility

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Allow me to place this in simpler terms...

One model is a picture of a Creator that stacked the deck of cards in His favor and is playing a rigged game.

One Model is a game of Chess that the Creator is playing out, infinitely in response to the genuine moves of Creation.

Which one is “Sovereign”... in your mind?
 
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Of the Kingdom

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I agree that God highly values free will, even at the price of evil existing. I do not believe God is ever surprised by how we use or abuse free will, though. While God does not force our decisions, I believe He can predict all of our decisions, and that the choices we make are just as free as they would be if He could not predict them.

Considering atheist alternatives to an omniscient God, I believe free will would be impossible without God actively supporting it. In the absence of quantum mechanics, physics appears totally deterministic, preventing any true free will. The nature of quantum mechanics does bring uncertainty of outcome, but I believe it is 'blind' in a way that would still result in no possibility of real free choices in the absence of supernatural influences.

Calvin wrote about the "bondage of the will". I don't know in detail what he taught, but I agree our will is unable to choose God unless the Spirit draws us, yet we do have free will in many of our choices. It is possible that God actively gives us free will in all of our choices, not just salvation.
 
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Grip Docility

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I agree that God highly values free will, even at the price of evil existing. I do not believe God is ever surprised by how we use or abuse free will, though. While God does not force our decisions, I believe He can predict all of our decisions, and that the choices we make are just as free as they would be if He could not predict them.

Considering atheist alternatives to an omniscient God, I believe free will would be impossible without God actively supporting it. In the absence of quantum mechanics, physics appears totally deterministic, preventing any true free will. The nature of quantum mechanics does bring uncertainty of outcome, but I believe it is 'blind' in a way that would still result in no possibility of real free choices in the absence of supernatural influences.

Calvin wrote about the "bondage of the will". I don't know in detail what he taught, but I agree our will is unable to choose God unless the Spirit draws us, yet we do have free will in many of our choices. It is possible that God actively gives us free will in all of our choices, not just salvation.

In Molinism... God not only is unsurprised by what we do, but He is aware of how changing circumstances of an infinite possibility would be responded to as well.

This is not Calvinist in thought, by any measure and I offer the story of Jonah as support.

I also offer the verse... 1 Corinthians 2:8

Notice the phrasing... “For had they known it”...

This implies God Acts strategically with knowledge of not what will happen, but all the infinite possibilities of what could happen.

What are you thoughts on this?
 
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sdowney717

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In Molinism... God not only is unsurprised by what we do, but He is aware of how changing circumstances of an infinite possibility would be responded to as well.

This is not Calvinist in thought, by any measure and I offer the story of Jonah as support.

I also offer the verse... 1 Corinthians 2:8

Notice the phrasing... “For had they known it”...

This implies God Acts strategically with knowledge of not what will happen, but all the infinite possibilities of what could happen.

What are you thoughts on this?
I offer this here, is not declaring the end from the beginning determinism?
This is more that God just knowing what will happen.

Isaiah 46:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
 
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Grip Docility

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I offer this here, is not declaring the end from the beginning determinism?
This is more that God just knowing what will happen.

Isaiah 46:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

I fully see your excellent posit.

In compliment... I would add... does God see “an ending” or “ALL POSSIBLE ENDINGS”... and act accordingly to bring about Salvation towards all that will choose Him, which is specifically what scripture teaches, IMO, (2 Peter 3:9).

We see Time as a tool God wields, and intercession as a specific guide to all... (Galatians 4:4-7). IMO

After all (2 Peter 3:8)

What I’m positing is that God doesn’t just know “The” Beginning from the End... But the infinite possibility of all infinite possibilities... and God knows the end He desires... but keeps that hidden from All but Himself and even God the Son (While walking among us) to thwart the work of Satan who biblically has limited Access to timeless knowledge as some angels may have been granted, by God... Supporting verse towards posit... about Satan (Luke 4:5)

Supporting verses about God the Son while among us... (Matthew 24:36) (Acts Of the Apostles 1:7)

Acts 1:7 Cross References (12 Verses)

Consider Daniel 2:21 as the main support to my opinioned Posit.
 
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sdowney717

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I fully see your excellent posit.

In compliment... I would add... does God see “an ending” or “ALL POSSIBLE ENDINGS”... and act accordingly to bring about Salvation towards all that will choose Him, which is specifically what scripture teaches, IMO, (2 Peter 3:9).

We see Time as a tool God wields, and intercession as a specific guide to all... (Galatians 4:4-7). IMO

After all (2 Peter 3:8)

What I’m positing is that God doesn’t just know “The” Beginning from the End... But the infinite possibility of all infinite possibilities... and God knows the end He desires... but keeps that hidden from All but Himself and even God the Son (While walking among us) to thwart the work of Satan who biblically has limited Access to timeless knowledge as some angels may have been granted, by God... Supporting verse towards posit... about Satan (Luke 4:5)

Supporting verses about God the Son while among us... (Matthew 24:36) (Acts Of the Apostles 1:7)

Acts 1:7 Cross References (12 Verses)

Consider Daniel 2:21 as the main support to my opinioned Posit.
21 And he changeth the times and the seasons; he removeth kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that have understanding;

v21 tells us God does things according to His own will, not anyone elses will. God intervenes against the will of the creature, the creator rules over the creature, that which He made.
God also ordained the futility of the creation against its own will, so that the creature would be dependent upon Him entirely for its life and help and health and prosperity, so that the creature would seek after Him. Without God, without Christ, all is vanity and chasing after the wind.

Romans 8:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [a]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

And in Ephesians it says, about believers in Christ this about ourselves and relationship to Him wonderful things, that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. And His will towards His own, is to give us the Kingdom of God which HE enjoys doing for us.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
 
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Grip Docility

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21 And he changeth the times and the seasons; he removeth kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that have understanding;

v21 tells us God does things according to His own will, not anyone elses will. God intervenes against the will of the creature, the creator rules over the creature, that which He made.
God also ordained the futility of the creation against its own will, so that the creature would be dependent upon Him entirely for its life and help and health and prosperity, so that the creature would seek after Him. Without God, without Christ, all is vanity and chasing after the wind.

Romans 8:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [a]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

And in Ephesians it says, about believers in Christ this about ourselves and relationship to Him wonderful things, that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. And His will towards His own, is to give us the Kingdom of God which HE enjoys doing for us.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

I appreciate your opinion on what the verse says. However, it is not what the verse says, as the verse says what it says. Our usage and interpretation is what is under discussion.

This Doctrine has emboldened versus that teach Predestination of the individual election... type... that states God chose some and reprobates some....

In reality it was Israel, the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) and Jesus Christ Who was Chosen. Election is found in Jesus Christ, but per scripture it was Jesus Christ Who was Elected before the foundation of the Universe.

Along these same lines, within Israel, we see people rejecting God, that are under the very word that "Individual Election" uses to state mankind is ELECTED to salvation, instead of Believing, after hearing the Gospel, as Paul clearly states in so many different ways, it becomes exceedingly repetitious.

The other versus I laid out weren't addressed by the proposed counter doctrine. This is an excellent example of reformed "predestination" doctrine, but in no way does this "interpretation" of scripture undermine my posit. IMO

1 John 2:2 ; 2 Corinthians 5:19

Romans 1:25 says they "exchanged"... which means they could have had, or had an opportunity to draw near God, but rejected it of their own free will.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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What causes the free will? If something causes it, then you declare a determinism. If the choices are genuinely random so as not to be caused by anything (as if such a thing were possible), then you have billions of original causes entering the world, not caused by God, and not even possibly caused by themselves. The chain of cause and effect begins with nothing, not even God. The human will becomes a self-created thing that had no means of creating itself prior to being created. You have a logical impossibility. You have made the most critical aspect of the human nature a thing which has always existed and needs no God for its existence.

You might say that God created that free will, but did not direct it. On the contrary, that free will is a direction, and nothing more. It's like claiming to make a wave without giving it direction. The wave is nothing if not a motion in a particular direction.

Determinism Limits God to being all knowing in a linear (UniDimensional) fashion by setting a play in motion, and going through said motions...

History is linear. Everything else is fantasy. Whatever does not happen is not real, and omniscience is about knowing reality, not knowing falsehood. Our perception of "possibilities," is the product of human ignorance about the future, and that's the antithesis of omniscience. In the end, either the bullet hits the mark or it misses the mark, and a thing that has already happened is a certainty, no matter how close the miss.

God created All Creation with infinite potential of choice and outcome. By doing this, God allowed for Creation to Choose Good or Bad.

By attributing infinite qualities to a man, you declare him to be God. Only God is infinite in any fashion. Only God is an original cause. Everything about the Free Will argument is an effort to make a man into a God.
 
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Grip Docility

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What causes the free will? If something causes it, then you declare a determinism.

I counter assert that because God causes free Will to Be genuine that to deny its existence is to deny God’s design.

To further empty the above argument of its obvious error... Rolling unloaded dice doesn’t decide the numbers rolled! If God wanted the dice to roll random, I’m pretty sure God could facilitate a genuine dice roll with infinite possibilities! Do we now revel in the idea “God Can’t” do a thing?

If the choices are genuinely random so as not to be caused by anything (as if such a thing were possible), then you have billions of original causes entering the world, not caused by God, and not even possibly caused by themselves.

Then we see that God ordained a free System of Choice that He is Free to intercede within, out of Love.

The chain of cause and effect begins with nothing, not even God.

God is the uncaused cause of existence and the Author and Source Of Love. Guess what... God doesn’t have to make people’s decisions for them! God is capable of being Omniscient and providing genuine human autonomy. If a person says He can’t do that, they are limiting God!

If I intercede in someone’s life to save them from heroine addiction, it doesn’t mean they were predestined to have a heroine addiction!

The human will becomes a self-created thing that had no means of creating itself prior to being created.
. This is a form of Sophism... if God Willed Angels and Men to have Free Will, it is God ordained Autonomy. There is no hammer of logic in the words I am responding to.

You have a logical impossibility. You have made the most critical aspect of the human nature a thing which has always existed and needs no God for its existence.

I counter rebut that this type Of Logic asserts itself with illogical posits. God did not ordain Evil, but merely responded to the abuse of the Free Will He Lovingly Provided. This Determination assertion is the type of assertion that puts God in league with the Destroyer. I don’t conflate God and the enemy of God. Satan isn’t God’s hand puppet.

You might say that God created that free will, but did not direct it. On the contrary, that free will is a direction, and nothing more. It's like claiming to make a wave without giving it direction. The wave is nothing if not a motion in a particular direction.

This logic is contradictory. If God Created Free Will, it is will that is free. If Will is dictated it is no longer free. Come now, let us not hammer square pegs into round holes.

History is linear. Everything else is fantasy.

History is the result of God responding to the Free Will decisions of sincere Creation as He ordained according to His good pleasure. God is not the Creation nor is the Creation God. Surprise.... God isn’t a dictator but a strategist, Lover and facilitator. He’s a facilitator Creator! God isn’t linear in any sense, nor is His Omniscience! IMO

Whatever does not happen is not real, and omniscience is about knowing reality, not knowing falsehood. Our perception of "possibilities," is the product of human ignorance about the future, and that's the antithesis of omniscience. In the end, either the bullet hits the mark or it misses the mark, and a thing that has already happened is a certainty, no matter how close the miss.

As I said, we are linear in thinking while God is Omni-Diminentional.. in Omniscience. Man has limited God to think as Man through Determinist thinking. Man views Power as control, while God exalts Love Above Power!

This actually bolsters my OP point by backing it’s posit that Linear Omniscience Condescends God to fit the construct of human reasoning.

God desires that none should perish but all come to repentance... yet scripture says There will be losses! Determinism has to alter the literal meaning of scripture to compensate for its implications! If Determinism were true and the passage in the Epistle Of Peter were read in context of the correctly rendered Greek... Determinism states that God failed to DETERMINE His own Will! We now see that Determinism declares God a Failure and has to invent a misreading Of Romans 9 to rejustify itself, at the expense of the Justness of the Almighty!

By attributing infinite qualities to a man, you declare him to be God. Only God is infinite in any fashion. Only God is an original cause. Everything about the Free Will argument is an effort to make a man into a God.

Numerical rebuttal to Logic employed in your argument: between 1 and 2 is the possibility of infinite decimal places... yet 1 and 2 are not infinity. Come now, Square Pegs do not fit in round holes... I say again.

Infinite possibility of Choice does not denote that the chooser is Infinite. The Creator is the infinite that provided the Infinite possibility of outcomes in the first place. To argue reality is on predetermined train tracks is to deny that God made reality a Craft Of flight that can turn any direction according to the rational Laws He set forth and bound Creation to.

Because a speed limit is set, doesn’t mean that choice is removed. It merely means a choice is provided that yields consequences, when the limit is broken.

Anarchy is the absence of Law. Free Will is the presence of Laws and choice.

God created infinite possibility and mankind has an infinite scope of decisions throughout a short amount of years. In no way have I conflated the Almighty with man, but shown that determinism has man as an expression of the Almighty’s every whim. Determinism blames God for Sin!

God Willed freedom. If God Willed freedom, then it is genuine freedom.

Determinism conflates Laws Of the Universe with Divine Micromanagement!
 
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Grip Docility

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Employing the Unmerited Favor Argument...

If God Willed Satan and Sin to Sin and Be Satan.... we deserve Grace for His Being responsible for our failures and misery!

If we deserve Grace, it’s no longer unmerited, thus its no longer Grace!

Oh snap! Determinism erases Grace!
 
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childeye 2

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I would like to address the semantics. Many have approached this theological issue based upon whether God or man should be blamed for sin. This is why this type of "free will" is defined in opposition to "determinism". Why is Satan's role not mentioned? I don't know. I think it should since scripture is not remiss in pointing this out.

Respectfully, if sin was inevitable for the creature (including Satan), this would create a semantical argument. Theologically speaking, sin cannot be prompted by God Who is Holy and never changes. Therefore sin can only be acted upon by the creature. So we know the creature sinned, but why? To say because he had a free will is a logical fallacy called a circular argument. It's like saying he sinned because he could. It provides no answer since the same reason could be given for why he didn't sin.

Therefore the deeper issue is that sin alone does not constitute what a free will actually implies. Free will implies that the creature could have not sinned, and that remains neither proven nor disproven just because the creature sinned. Free will therefore remains an assertion when defined as relative to determinism.

Moreover, we have to ask ourselves if fools are pre-determined to make foolish choices. If not, then of what value is wisdom? The semantics become difficult to navigate since a wise person would rather consider himself a fool. Is sin a foolish choice or a wise choice? I think that answer is clear, assuming sin is counted as an option rather than a blind carnal impetus. And what about faith and unfaith being pre-requisites for righteousness and unrighteousness? How does this factor into terms like free will and determinism?

Finally, I believe that vanity in the creation is the best explanation for why a person sins. Who is immune to vanity but God? If God is sifting through vanity to determine an order for an everlasting Kingdom, then where does free will end and determinism begin, or visa versa?
 
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Grip Docility

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I would like to address the semantics. Many have approached this theological issue based upon whether God or man should be blamed for sin. This is why this type of "free will" is defined in opposition to "determinism". Why is Satan's role not mentioned? I don't know. I think it should since scripture is not remiss in pointing this out.

Respectfully, if sin was inevitable for the creature (including Satan), this would create a semantical argument. Theologically speaking, sin cannot be prompted by God Who is Holy and never changes. Therefore sin can only be acted upon by the creature. So we know the creature sinned, but why? To say because he had a free will is a logical fallacy called a circular argument. It's like saying he sinned because he could. It provides no answer since the same reason could be given for why he didn't sin.

Therefore the deeper issue is that sin alone does not constitute what a free will actually implies. Free will implies that the creature could have not sinned, and that remains neither proven nor disproven just because the creature sinned. Free will therefore remains an assertion when defined as relative to determinism.

Moreover, we have to ask ourselves if fools are pre-determined to make foolish choices. If not, then of what value is wisdom? The semantics become difficult to navigate since a wise person would rather consider himself a fool. Is sin a foolish choice or a wise choice? I think that answer is clear, assuming sin is counted as an option rather than a blind carnal impetus. And what about faith and unfaith being pre-requisites for righteousness and unrighteousness? How does this factor into terms like free will and determinism?

Finally, I believe that vanity in the creation is the best explanation for why a person sins. Who is immune to vanity but God? If God is sifting through vanity to determine an order for an everlasting Kingdom, then where does free will end and determinism begin, or visa versa?

After fat fingering “informative” and “funny” I finally landed on agree.

When the words are combined... “free” and “will”... it is legitimately combining two English words with a specific intention.

Free:

a.
allowed to decide for yourself what you do, say, or think, especially without being controlled by someone in authority
a free people

a free country/society:
We like to believe we live in a free society.

a free election:
the first free elections in Germany since 1946

Will:

SINGULAR] what someone wants to happen
will of:

For once politicians are listening to the will of the people.

against someone’s will:
He claims he was held in the flat against his will.

impose your will on someone (=make other people do what you want):
She was a powerful ruler, used to imposing her will.

SINGULAR] an ability to make decisions and take action

This machine seems to have a will of its own.

Free denotes ability to think, choose, and so forth as an independent, unique individual... that is not being thought for, chosen for, controlled to be void of independent thought by an outside force.

Let’s take the two Scriptural forces into account that influence... God and the devil.

Pre Fall:

God gives Choice. Adam and Eve had a choice between Utopia under God’s parental authority to enjoy life of infinite decisions void of negative outcome...., or a life hewn forth with the Creation as it’s Judge jury and executioner... based on The creation becoming its own delineator Of Good and Evil.

Satan deceives Eve to utilize her endowment of choice to enslave mankind to become subject to a world where the Creation is its own judge, jury and executioner... based on the Creation becoming its own delineator Of Good and Evil.

Post Fall: God warns Cain to not choose sin which is crouching at his door.

Satan draws Cain towards choosing to murder Able.

In both instances... Mankind had a choice and was free to choose either outcome. It wasn’t an artificial Choice with artificial constructs of reality.

Per Ezekiel 28:13-17 we see the anointed guardian cherub was created blameless and from within self... became proud, thus God found iniquity risen up within Satan. Choice was at play within Satan.

As for Will: the ability to make decisions and act on them... we see the instances used to describe “free”, pre and post fall for mankind and Satan, show the ability to make choices and act on them.

The distortion comes in towards the word combination “free Will” through several attempts to doctrinally pigeon hole the phrase.

1) Free Will preposterously claims man can will matter into existence, fly and so forth.

2) Free Will preposterously denies that mankind is subject to the intercession of God or Satan.

3) Free Will is a term relegated to Sinful action and is always a term indicative of rebellion against the Creator.

These 3 examples expose how Determinist Sophist Type rhetoric attempts to “Pigeon Hole” the phrase “Free Will” in a dishonest manner.

In follow through... further distortion comes in to confuse INTERCESSION with DICTATORSHIP.

Even deeper distortion comes in to suggest that Love Of the forced kind is sincere, when Love Born Of Determinism and Dictatorship is seen as sincere or valid.

The very presence of choice that is present throughout scripture is clear and indicative of Free Will. The word choice is condescended by Determinism to avoid acknowledging God’s Desire Of it’s relevance that is ever present in all scripture to a repetitiously exuberant Level!

Your use of foolish and wise is excellent as, it actually endows the argument with stronger biblical substance that proofs the presence of sincere ability to choose, that is present in scripture.

Let’s take the ant and sluggard example scripture gives. The ant industriously stores up food, while the sluggard does not. If I fail to industriously pursue eating, I will starve to death. If I industriously eat, I will not starve to death. These are wise or foolish choices that again proof endowment of ability to choose.

Building on this, we can further see that Satan is the Determinist, that desires to remove choice from the equation, though God endowed mankind with the ability to choose contrary to what Satan desires us to choose.

What is Satan’s self intended use of His pride? Power! Satan yearns to have power over creation... as we see in Zechariah 3... though in Zechariah 3 we see Satan overstepping his bounds towards the Incarnation of God Almighty, which led to his expulsion from Heaven, recorded in Revelation 12 and eluded to in Genesis 3, as well as Ezekiel 28.

The Determinist acts as if it is impossible for Multi-Dimensionally Omniscient God to have all knowledge and Create sincerely autonomous Creations, that He responded to, interceded for and unfortunately must act against in certain instances.

There is no artificial aspect to the Universe God Created, nor any artificial occurrences among God’s creations.

God’s Creations are Far from being marionettes on strings... All of Creation is full of autonomous things.
:)
 
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Grip Docility

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Why is this important in doctrine and not a profitless discussion?

Because God has no Iniquity to His charge! God set in motion Creation, but did not set forth Iniquity!

Iniquity is not, never has been, nor ever will be God’s design, desire, Will, intention or collaboration!

God fostered Sincere choice and foolish use of that Sincere, Divinely Endowed ability can yield iniquity.

When a Professional Chef grade Knife maker Hand forges and finishes a set of beautifully crafted Chef Knives... they were made to do good works of wonderful Food Preparation.

When a murderer uses one of those knifes to take a life, the Knife is being used contrary to the makers design!

Iniquity is anything contrary to God’s design!
Thus, saying God did not endow choice is to say Iniquity does not exist at the least, or iniquity was God’s will at the worst!

Choice is not Iniquity! Choosing contrary to God’s design is Iniquity!
Conflation of this simple principle not only charges Iniquity towards God, but places attributes of Satan, squarely on God’s Shoulders! This is a Theological No-No!
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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...That God Knows All Free Will decisions that can/could ever be made, amidst their infinite possibilities...

Apparently, with man all things are possible.

Sovereign Determinist Omniscience States That God has to order Human History...

Sovereign Free Will Omniscience States That God Knows All Free Will decisions that can/could ever be made, amidst their infinite possibilities...

Which is more Sovereign?

Determinism makes God more sovereign. That's a pretty easy answer. Either God has infinite possibilities available to him, or God must run around responding to infinite human possibilities. If God truly is in control, then there is no such thing as "human possibilities," but he knows exactly what will happen. The possibilities are open to God, not man. Man is only free to follow his nature. Even when he thinks he defies his nature, that is his nature. A man cannot redesign himself without being motivated by his own design to do that very thing. Only divine determinism makes God sovereign. The other one assumes a power in man that supersedes the power of God, which God must respond to at the same level as one man responding to another. That is, it puts human decision making at the same level as God, because it makes the human will an uncaused cause, the same kind of first cause that only God can be.
 
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Grip Docility

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Apparently, with man all things are possible.

IMO

Non Sequitur

False argument rooted in sarcasm that suggests that suggesting the Almighty is “CAPABLE”... of Creating Genuinely Autonomous beings that He can Lovingly respond to... versus CONTROLLING them... is exalting man.

This is an argument based on mankind’s idea of leadership and sovereignty that is explicitly contrary to ALL scripture. God’s crown is humility! Even by the Determinist argument the Crown Of Thorns is significant.

Not even close to an acceptable rhetorical reply.

Determinism makes God more sovereign. That's a pretty easy answer.

Emoting of opinion is a form of Debate, but it holds zero validity

Either God has infinite possibilities available to him, or God must run around responding to infinite human possibilities.

The Bible clearly reveals which one is true. God is the Being that is uncreated and created the facilitated sandbox of infinite opportunities. The Determinist wants to tell God what to do with His Sovereignty if He is to be acceptable as Sovereign in the worldly sense, while simultaneously limiting His Omniscience to the mind of a human Author.

If God truly is in control, then there is no such thing as "human possibilities," but he knows exactly what will happen.

This is again a non Sequitur argument as it suggests an emoted opinion that fails to recognize that God has the RIGHT to relationally respond to His Creations that are Autonomous by His very will.

It’s like saying... “My Opinion is More Better, thus your opinion is more wronger.”

The possibilities are open to God, not man.

Unless God Willed man to have genuinely infinite Possibilities... which scripture and reality display beyond any question!

Man is only free to follow his nature. Even when he thinks he defies his nature, that is his nature.

This is a non statement that doesn’t address a single thing we are discussing. Unless you’re saying the Choo Choo train is on tracks, which is faulty Thinking! The Kingdom Of heaven belongs to the little children, the dreamers... the ones that blow the lock off of Carnal thinking and reach in faith to the evidence of the unseen!

This is not even a viable counter to a single word I wrote in the post you blind posted towards without addressing a single aspect of its logically direct response and intentional rhetoric and diatribe.

A man cannot redesign himself without being motivated by his own design to do that very thing.

Adam and Eve botched up the use of their God given Autonomy at the deceit Of an angel that had botched up his use of his God given autonomy... with their God given, Autonomous will.

Adam, Eve and Satan all had opportunity to succeed or fail and with their unfallen will, fell.

This is unarguable. The Bible plainly says God does not TEMPT... thus to say God ORDAINED the tempting is to change God’s own word... which is exactly what the Dragon did in the garden towards Eve!

Only divine determinism makes God sovereign.

There’s that non Sequitur “More Wronger” Logic again, with unsubstantiated claim.

The other one assumes a power in man that supersedes the power of God, which God must respond to at the same level as one man responding to another.

Read Philippians 2 closely, acknowledge that the Son, though the Father, FULLY reveals the Father... and rethink your Posit! God is a servant to man by CHOICE and Humility, not lack of Sovereignty!

It is Satan that desires to DETERMINE the Fate Of Man! 2 Peter 3:9 tells what GOD DESIRES... while 1 Peter 5:8 tells about what the Devil/Accuser of the brethren desires.

Determinism literally conflates the Autonomous Will Of Satan with the Sovereign Will Of God. This happened on a thread and I can rapidly provide a spoiler link to where I got blocked by an individual when I led them to the conclusion by their own words! It’s not good to conflate the will of the Enemy of God with God’s Will! People forget these verses: Luke 11:14-26 ... and towards the doctrine of Determinism I SEVERELY recommend a close reading of these verses are read! Satan isn’t the Power Of God Nor under the Will Of God! Iniquity is to never be charged towards God in any form or fashion... whether it be by proxy or other!

Satan was attempting to disguise his iniquity as servitude to God, in the Old Covenant and thus His rebellion was marginally cloaked by his appearing to be an agent of God, though God knew his heart the whole time. Job... Ezekiel 28... Exodus... and so on proof this. He wasn’t cast out of Heaven till after the Son’s commending His Spirit to the Father.

That is, it puts human decision making at the same level as God, because it makes the human will an uncaused cause, the same kind of first cause that only God can be.

Human will being autonomous is Caused by God within my Rhetoric! How can the God endowed minds of men conflate Marionettes on strings with God’s design!

It is not God that ENSLAVES the Will, nor is it God that WILLS Sin!

This doctrine needs to bring stiffer rhetoric than “my daddy is more better than your daddy”.

No way, no how do I or will I charge Creations failures to God!

2 Corinthians 5:21 should be the coffin nail in the idea of Determinism and its sophistry of “IF God isn’t DICTATING everything... He’s not Sovereign.”

It says HE KNEW NO SIN... He... the Father who knew no sin... made Him to be sin... This is towards the Incarnate Person Of the Indivisible Trinity and He wasn’t pretending to know no sin, nor did He know sin! He never Willed it, desired it, ordained it or made it so!

Sin by definition is missing the Mark! If God Willed sin, it would be God’s mark and thusly wouldn’t be SIN in the first place!
 
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Grip Docility

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Why is this important in doctrine and not a profitless discussion?

Because God has no Iniquity to His charge! God set in motion Creation, but did not set forth Iniquity!

Iniquity is not, never has been, nor ever will be God’s design, desire, Will, intention or collaboration!

God fostered Sincere choice and foolish use of that Sincere, Divinely Endowed ability can yield iniquity.

When a Professional Chef grade Knife maker Hand forges and finishes a set of beautifully crafted Chef Knives... they were made to do good works of wonderful Food Preparation.

When a murderer uses one of those knifes to take a life, the Knife is being used contrary to the makers design!

Iniquity is anything contrary to God’s design!
Thus, saying God did not endow choice is to say Iniquity does not exist at the least, or iniquity was God’s will at the worst!

Choice is not Iniquity! Choosing contrary to God’s design is Iniquity!
Conflation of this simple principle not only charges Iniquity towards God, but places attributes of Satan, squarely on God’s Shoulders! This is a Theological No-No!

@nonaeroterraqueous what is your response to this post?
 
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trophy33

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I think there are some logical/philosophical errors in your OP. You think that some thing means some other thing, but it is not so.

For example, predetermination (and foreknowledge) of all events by God does not make Him limited or responsible for our evils.

If we are not forced to act in a specific way, then we are responsible, no matter how probable or how certain our choice was.
 
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