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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

    What is your source for that (John 20:28)?
  2. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

    That's OK. I'll skip your link, if you don't mind, as deity of a man is an abomination in my religion.
  3. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    Could be a simple mistranslated word. As for Etmak sounding nothing like Ahmed, what about Emeth....

    Christians also say machamaddim in SOS 5:16 is nothing like Muhammadim

    5:16: “His mouth is full of sweetness. And he is wholly desirable (machamaddim). This is my beloved and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.”

    But when you listen to a Jewish Rabbi:

    Jesus pbuh said a 'Spirit of Truth' would come.
    When we look at the Hebrew words that would have been used for “spirit of Truth” in Strong's concordance, we get

    Spirit in Hebrew Strong's Hebrew: 7308. ר֫וּחַ (ruach) -- wind, spirit is ruach

    Truth in Hebrew Strong's Hebrew: 571. אֱמֶת (emeth) -- firmness, faithfulness, truth is emeth Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-meth)

    Who is the Spirit called “Eh meth” who is in heaven that was mentioned by Christ that can only come after Christ is raised to heaven?

    The spirit who will testify about Christ was obviously a man named eh'-meth and not an invisible spirit, that was to reveal what the disciples were not ready to hear from Christ himself at that time, for Christ said I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.

    After 2000 years, Christians who believed it was only a spirit have divided themselves into more than 45,000 Christian denominations, each claiming they alone are guided by the “Spirit of Truth”. Which is pretty absurd as no Spirit of Truth could mislead us to divide in this manner.

    Christ further tells us in Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

    Meaning Christ will only return after his followers will be praising this man/advocate/comforter and he will preach In the name of God

    So the question arises who was this man, who spoke “in the name of God”?

    And when we search for him in the Torah, we do find him mentioned in Isaiah 42:1 as Et mak translated as

    Isaiah 42:1 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
    הֵ֤ן עַבְדִּי֙ אֶתְמָךְ־ בֹּ֔ו בְּחִירִ֖י רָצְתָ֣ה נַפְשִׁ֑י נָתַ֤תִּי רוּחִי֙ עָלָ֔יו מִשְׁפָּ֖ט לַגֹּויִ֥ם יֹוצִֽיא׃

    hên ‘aḇ-dî ’eṯ-māḵ- bōw, bə-ḥî-rî nap̄-šî; nā-ṯat-tî rū-ḥî ‘ā-lāw, miš-pāṭ lag-gō-w-yim yō-w-ṣî.

    King James Bible 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    New International Version 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

    See the image, when translated as a name, in the OP >>> Ahmad

    And when we search for him in the Quran, revealed 600 years after Christ had been raised to heaven, we find ….

    *Ahmad is mentioned in verse (61:6) of the Quran, which reads In the name of God (in every beginning of a chapter) and says

    “And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."

    History shows a man names Ahmad pbuh rose from the land of Kedar and sang a New Song.
  4. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

  5. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    Well you jumped in on me. This is a Christian site where we believe that. I just showing you all the scriptures that allude to the deity of Christ. You can show me all the texts about 1 God in OT and Christ claims that too. The Messiah hadn't come in human form when the Old testament things were written. Thats why you can pull stuff like that out.

    Mark 8:31 [ Jesus Predicts His Death ] He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

    Luke 20:16-18New International Version (NIV)

    16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”
    When the people heard this, they said, “God forbid!”
    17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, “Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

    “‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone’[a]?

    18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

    Luke 10:16

    “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
  6. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    How do you make a prediction of the future, when in truth you write about it after the event?

    Jesus pbuh died 33 A.D. and Mark wrote around 70 A.D. Luke 80 A.D.
  7. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    They had notes and they are just writing down what he told them at time. The gospels are written in a historic narrative and canonized later
    I guess you have to read the gospels see if what there saying is reliable and trustworthy. Read a book as a whole and just not pick out things. I think what they wrote about Christ is very reliable and it witnesses as the truth to me. How he lived his life what he said and did. Love your enemies, forgiveness of sin. Salvation as a free gift for who ever believes in him. The healing's and mercy and the peace it give you to name a few.
    I appreciate you sharing your views as a muslin with me
    God bless
  8. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    Yes sorry, I was a bit harsh.

    The NT could have been much better preserved, and it is what it is. Salvation for grace if very appealing for many people, but this life is a short test. A test that requires effort. Effort to drag yourself out of a deep sleep at 5:00 am for the morning prayer, but you know what, when you are washed, awake and on that prayer mat making sincere intention to worship the GOD of the Heavens and Earth, then you absolutely feel connected and at peace.

    I'm Muslim because I can ask GOD a question, then open his Qur'an on any random page, look at the first verse my eyes fall on and read. He talks directly to the soul and answers our questions and needs.

    I'm a Muslim because the Qur'an is a miracle of healing and power. I'm a Muslim and know Islam is the absolute truth. I look at posts like this one I feel like God hates me. and think, this poor guy has obviously unlocked a door and needs help, he appears desperate and potentially suicidal, but look at the responses he's getting! I can't comment on there, but if I could, I'd send him a link and let him listen to power and might that would blast that voice clean out of his head.

    Look at this verse:
    And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." 7:172

    Do you remember this meeting with GOD?

    God bless you too
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    So after working some Google magic I was able to locate a transcription of P66 in xml format here. I then decided to do a search for the word μου in relation to θς, it's near the bottom of the file you can Ctrl+F and starting from the bottom and search up and see the transcriptions which correspond to verse 28 of John ch. 20, you'll also notice that the formatting presents these an lacuna/illegible. Then I went on a hunt to find the relevant scanned image of P66, the clue is that above in the aforementioned xml file we see P149C1L3-P66, I was a little confused at first (I'm not a papyrologist by any stretch of the imagination) but realized it most likely meant page 149, column 1, line 3. I managed to come across this website here, but sadly it didn't seem to contain images of P66. So I clicked on the link and found it took me to a directory here. Clicking on p66joh149.jpg brought up this image.

    Attempting to claim that θς μου doesn't exist in P66, therefore, seems to be at least a little disingenuous. The fragmentary nature of this particular portion of the manuscript renders attempting to make any claim one way or the other speculative.

    Okay, so let's look at Codex Sinaiticus, using the link you used in your earlier post I decided to look up John 20:28, I then was able to find it located on the fourth column about midway down, I took the liberty of using the Windows snipping tool to take a capture of the image:


    If that's hard to make out, that's okay, I'll use some photoshop:


    Ah, there it is,

    απεκριθη ο θω
    μαϲ και ειπεν αυ
    τω˙ο κϲ μου και ο
    θϲ μου

    Circled in Green is θϲ, it's θς but with a lunate Sigma which looks nearly identical to the Latin 'C'.

    So if you were providing P66 as evidence of the lack of "theos mou" in the text, that's rather unfair because of the fragmentary nature of the manuscript in that place, as stated trying to say one way or the other would be rather faulty. In the case of Sinaiticus, however, that's straight up false as you can see it for yourself right here. If you think I'm yanking your chain or otherwise am being deceitful, you are more than welcome to do a little homework, for Sinaiticus I used the link you gave.

  10. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

    I don't bother with the Christian proofs for two simple reasons. 1.I know my Scriptures and 2. what Christian Scriptures say is of little meaning to me. In regards to this thread, I don't object to the Jesus' claim of being a child of the Almighty. In the view of the Scriptures available to him at the time it's a reasonable position. I do object to the exclusive claim to the title since, in the view of the "Old Testament" such claim does not exist. The man's divinity is a wholly different subject.
  11. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    Well done on your investigative skills. It can be frustrating when most of the studies are in Greek.

    P66 dates to about AD 200 (Martin), AD 100-150 (Hunger), "early or middle fourth century" (Nongbri). Papyrus 66 - Wikipedia

    The verse from doubting Thomas does appear in all later manuscripts including the Codex Sinaiticus 350 A.D.. The fact it's missing in P66 leaves a question mark on whether it was a later edition or not.

    On the issue of the blind man:
    P75 which dates 175-225 (Martin and Kasser), late third century-early fourth century (Orsini), fourth century (Nongbri) is complete where the story of the blind man is mentioned;


    As you can see, the verse in question is missing 9:38.

    And as you saw on the margins of the Codex Sinaiticus, it is the work of a well meaning Christian Scribe.

    So now we see a key verse totally absent from one of the earliest complete manuscripts, and we have a hole where Thomas spoke, a Lacuna. Non Christians ask, ok were the Scribes trustworthy? Well consider this:

    The earliest complete Manuscript of Mark is missing 1:1 'Son of God' it also ends at 16:8 with an open tomb.
    John is missing the story of the adulteress lady, someone added 1 john 5:7 (Trinity verse). else where Jesus pbuh says, 'follow me', not 'pick up your cross and follow me'

    The AV of the Bible found here Missing in Modern Bibles - The Old Heresy Revived contains thousands, yes thousands of words missing in modern Bibles. Remember, modern Bibles claim to base their translations on the earlier manuscripts. The meanings of verses change, so it shows the AV Scribes were themselves happy to 'make' adjustments, perhaps from their own understanding.

    Professor Bart Ehrman says,
    "For practical reasons, New Testament scholars proceed as if we do actually know what Mark wrote, or Paul, or the author of 1 Peter. And if I had to guess, my guess would be that in most cases we can probably get close to what the author wrote. But the dim reality is that we really don’t have any way to know for sure.”

    “We simply create a little fiction in our minds that we are reading the actual words of Mark, or Paul, or 1 Peter, and get on with the business of interpretation. It’s a harmless fiction…”

    Whilst I don't share this degree of scepticism, it is clear the higher Christology found in John is the result of evolving theology.

    Would I want to stop worshipping ONE GOD in straightforward Monotheism for a triune God? No, the thought should never cross the mind of anyone with sincerity in their heart; believers know Idolatry is unforgivable in the Sight of GOD.

    Muslims are also forbidden from following blindly and wouldn't place their faith in Licunas and later editions to 'Holy' Scripture.
    The 45,000+ denominations all claiming to have exclusive understanding of the Holy Spirit is also mind boggling.
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    I believe the term that best describes this is reaching.

  13. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

    You missed the context as I showed you.

    You missed the context again. No one came from Kedar. The New Song is the redemption of sins brought by Jesus Christ at the cross. Did Arabs hear it? Yes, See Acts 2:

    8 How is it that each of us can hear in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites; those who live in Mesopotamia, in Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking the magnificent acts of God in our own languages.”

    Moses stuttered, that does not mean he was illiterate. Moses was educated by the Egyptions. Muhammad is not the prophet like Moses. If you want to debate this, please open another topic thread.

    That is exactly what you do. You ignore the context.

    Matthew would have understood Hebrew parallelism. It is highly unlikely that Matthew would have misunderstood Zechariah’s word. Matthew emphasizes that there were two animals. Mark and Luke put the emphasis on the colt. The garments were put on both the donkey and the colt. The mother donkey was brought along to calm the colt because it had never been rode as Mark and Luke point out. Jesus did not ride both animals like He was a circus performer. Matthew expects his readers to have common sense.

    The Greek says Jesus rode on the cloaks on the animals. It does not say He rode on two animals, which would be a misunderstanding of the grammar.

    Matthew 21:77. They brought the donkey and the colt and put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them.

    In Greek, whenever is closest to the pronoun and agrees with it is most likely to be the referent. In this case, it is the cloaks. Saying it is the two animals is trying to find an error since the most natural reading of the Greek is being ignored.

    The slaughter of the innocents is unattested in secular records, but the historical plausibility of this event happening is consistent with the character and actions of Herod the Great. Besides killing his enemies, he had no qualms in killing family members and friends as well. Herod would not have given a second thought about killing a handful of babies in a small, obscure village south of Jerusalem in order to keep his throne secure for himself, or his sons, even if it was one of the last dastardly deeds he committed before he died. As Herod lay dying, raked in pain and agony, the men of God and those with special wisdom opined that Herod was suffering these things because it was “the penalty that God was exacting of the king for his great impiety” (Antiquities 17:170; LCL 8:449-451).

    The Slaughter of the Innocents: Historical Fact or Legendary Fiction?

    Isaiah 42 – prophecies and fulfillment:

    The Jews would have a hardened heart against the Messiah.

    Isaiah 6:9-10a

    John 12:37-40

    The Messiah would speak in parables.

    Isaiah 6:9-10b

    Matthew 13:13-15

    The Messiah would be a descendant of David.

    Isaiah 7:13-14

    Matthew 1:1

    The Messiah would be born of a virgin.

    Isaiah 7:14a

    Luke 1:34-35

    The Messiah would be Immanuel, "God with us."

    Isaiah 7:14b

    Matthew 1:21-23

    The Messiah would be God.

    Isaiah 7:14c

    John 12:45

    The Messiah would be a "stumbling stone" for the Jews.

    Isaiah 8:14

    Matthew 21:43-44

    The Messiah would minister in Galilee.

    Isaiah 9:1-2a

    Matthew 4:12-17

    The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles.

    Isaiah 9:1-2b

    Luke 2:28-32

    The birth of the Messiah.

    Isaiah 9:6a

    Luke 2:11

    The Messiah would be the Son of God.

    Isaiah 9:6b

    Luke 1:35

    The Messiah would be the "Wonderful Counselor."

    Isaiah 9:6c

    John 7:46

    The Messiah would be both God and man (the "Mighty God").

    Isaiah 9:6d

    John 10:30

    The Messiah would be from everlasting (the "Everlasting Father").

    Isaiah 9:6e

    Revelation 1:8

    The Messiah would be the "Prince of Peace."

    Isaiah 9:6f

    Colossians 1:20

    The Messiah would be a descendant of David.

    Isaiah 9:7

    Matthew 1:1

    It seems Muslim scholars take away prophecies of from Jesus and give them to Muhammad.

    In the future, please do not introduce so many subjects in one post. Make them separate topic thread in order to be considerate.
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    So the Arabs heard it and converted to Christianity did they? Show me evidence people from the Kedar and Selah were singing the Gospel and lay this argument to rest.

    I should be clear; Moses had a speech impediment, and Muhammad was illiterate. Both issues that affected them in a major way.

    Your opinion, and thanks for reeling off a list of Prophecies from the OT talking about Jesus pbuh. I will prove Christians like throwing stones from glass houses.

    I gave you the Bible commentary showing Scholars know for a fact Matthew made a blunder; one of several as it happens.

    Are you a Scholar of Greek?

    "As one of the five founders of the Evangelical Theological Society, with a heavy heart I officially request that Dr. Robert Gundry submit his resignation, unless he retracts his position on the historical trustworthiness of Matthew's Gospel."

    Evangelical Scholars Remove Robert Gundry for His Views on Matthew

    I showed the American Bible Commentators view was,
    21:7 Upon them: upon the two animals; an awkward picture resulting from Matthew’s misunderstanding of the prophecy.”

    scripture Trust your Scholars tasked with Bible Commentary or you?

    Killing family and enemies is a far cry from every male infant about to be born. I'm sure Josephus or other Historians would have made a passing mention, after all he devoted 20 chapters to the life of a common criminal in his voluminous works.

    Anyway, let's see what your link has to say to support...

    The article is based on the writings of Michael Grant, a popular writer. Yes that's right, he writes popular 'Fiction' for young adults. Michael Grant (author, born 1954) - Wikipedia I think we should stick with facts presented by Josephus and other Historians grounded in reality.

    Start a new thread entitled Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 42, and I'll be happy to comment on these verses.

    No, only that fit in with historical facts related to the descendants of Ishmael pbuh.

    I would love to, but non Christians are banned from starting threads.
  15. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    THat not quite what you said below.

    If a man manifested his self in perfect form from God and the restrictions of the flesh. It would be Jesus.
    The Father, the son, the holy spirit.
    Luke 10:16
    “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

    If the messiah hadn't come, the Old Testaments writers wouldn't speak about him in the present would they?
    Much of the great men of faith of the OT pointed there faith to Christ. There are many references to him in OT and there a many scriptures that point out what the messiah would do. There is even prophecy pointing out when he would arrive.

    God bless
  16. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

    Again, as I pointed out, the claim of sonship is nothing unusual nor special. The whole nation is called that and an individual (Solomon) is called that in the Tanakh. Does that mean Solomon was the promised prince that Ezekiel was talking about? That's gibberish, of course. Let me just finish with this. People see what they want to see. As this very thread demonstrates. According to the Christian writings the Messiah came and went. According to ours, that is not the case. And in the last 2000+ years no one has been able to prove otherwise.
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    This is a really big topic so I skipped it for a while. Meant to get back to it earlier.

    Jesus upheld the Torah perfectly. The Israelite's of the time rejected Christ and killed him. It was a time of judgement on the people and leaders of the old covenant. Jesus is King and High priest of the New Covenant. When there is a new King and high priest changes can be made to the covenant. Jesus didn't throw every thing out of the old law he amended it and made it Christianity. Even a lot of Christians don't understand this.
    I can get you scriptures if you want.

    Around 40 years after Christs death. THe Time Moses was in the wilderness. Around 70 ad Jerusalem was destroyed and Israel was sent into desolation. The temple was destroyed by the prince Titus and now there is the dome on the rock.

    God Bless
  18. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    Ok well you pushed this. To say Jesus didn't claim deity is ridiculous. People called him lord, lord. He said he was lord of the Sabbath and many other things. It's all through the gospels. You maybe able con christians who don't know scripture. You can reject Jesus thats your choice. But don't misrepresent and say he wasn't claiming deity.

    Jesus bears the names and titles of deity
    There is only one God.

    • Deuteronomy 6:4 - “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
    • Deuteronomy 4:35 - To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.
    • Isaiah 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
    • etc., etc., etc.
    Yet Jesus is called God.

    • John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    • John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
    • Titus 2:13 - waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ1
    • 2 Peter 1:1 - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ1
    • Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    • Romans 9:5 - To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
    • Hebrews 1:8 - But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    • John 20:28-29 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
    • c.f. Matthew 1:21-23
    The New Testament cites numerous Old Testament passages about Jehovah and refers them to Jesus.

    • Hebrews 1:8-12 - But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

      Psalm 102:25-27 - [Hear my prayer, O Lord [Jehovah]] Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.

    • John 12:36-41 - When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

      Isaiah 6:1-10 - In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts!” Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.” And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

    • Ephesians 4:7-8 - But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

      Psalm 68:18 - You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.

    • 1 Peter 2:4-8 - As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and _“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” (c.f. Luke 2:34)

      Isaiah 8:13-14 - But the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

    • Romans 10:9-13 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (c.f. Romans 9:33)

      Joel 2:32 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [Jehovah] shall be saved.

    • Revelation 1:7 - Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

      Zechariah 12:1,10 - The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord [Jehovah]… “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

    • Mark 1:1-3 - The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,’” (c.f. Matthew 3:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23)

      Isaiah 40:3 - A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord [Jehovah]; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    • Matthew 11:10 - As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? … A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written, “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’”

      Malachi 3:1 - “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts.”

    • 1 Corinthians 10:9 - We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.

      Numbers 21:5-6 - And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

    • Luke 4:16-21 - And he [Jesus] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

      Isaiah 61 - The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor… For I the Lord [Jehovah] love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. [This passage is too lengthy to include in its entirety. The diligent Bible student will readily discern that the speaker in the entire chapter is Jehovah, himself.]

    • c.f. Romans 14:11 of Isaiah 45:22-23, 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 of Jeremiah 9:24, and 1 Peter 2:3 of Psalm 34:8, 2 Peter 3:8 of Psalm 90:4
    I Am
    “I am” is the covenant name of God, highlighting his timeless self-existence.

    • Exodus 3:14-15 - God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’“ God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
    Yet Jesus identified himself as “I am”.

    • John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he2 you will die in your sins.”
    • John 8:28 - So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he2, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
    • John 13:19 - I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he2.
    • John 18:5-6 - They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he2.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he2,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
    • John 8:58-59 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
    The Alpha and the Omega
    The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last is peculiarly the name of God, highlighting His eternal being.

    • Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
    • Isaiah 44:6 - Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
    Yet Jesus takes the name “the Alpha and the Omega”.

    • Revelation 1:17-18 - When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
    • Revelation 2:8 - “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
    • Revelation 22:12-13 - “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
    King of kings and Lord of Lords
    God is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

    • Deuteronomy 10:17 - For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
    • Psalm 136:1-3 - Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever;
    • 1 Timothy 6:13-15 - I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
    Yet Jesus is called the King of kings and Lord of lords.

    • Revelation 17:14 - They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings,
    • Revelation 19:11-16 - Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
    While the Bible recognizes occasional national “saviors” raised up to deliver Israel from earthly oppressors, God declares that He is the only Savior of His people in the ultimate and religious sense.

    • Isaiah 43:11 - I, I am the Lord [Jehovah], and besides me there is no savior.
    • Isaiah 49:26 - Then all flesh shall know that I am the Lord [Jehovah] your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
    • Hosea 13:4 - But I am the Lord [Jehovah] your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.
    Yet Jesus is designated the Savior, not occasionally but officially, not nationally but spiritually, and not temporally but eternally.

    • Luke 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
    • John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
    • Acts 5:31 - God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
    • Ephesians 5:23 - For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
    • 2 Timothy 1:10 - and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
    • Titus 1:4 - Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
    • Titus 3:5-6 - he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior
    • 2 Peter 1:11 - For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • 2 Peter 2:20 - For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
    • 2 Peter 3:18 - But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
    • 1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
    • Titus 2:13 - waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
    • 2 Peter 1:1 - To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
    • c.f. Matthew 1:21, Acts 13:23, Philippians 3:20, etc.
    Jesus partakes of the prerogatives of deity
    He shares God’s glory
    God declares that He shares His glory with no one else.

    • Isaiah 42:8,11 - I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
    Yet Jesus shares the Father’s glory.

    • John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
    • John 17:24 - Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
    • c.f. 2 Peter 3:18
    He receives religious worship
    Scripture is clear that God alone is to be worshipped. Elect angels and holy men reject worship when rendered to them.

    • Exodus 34:14 - you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
    • Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship [proskuneo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
    • Acts 10:25-26 - When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped [proskuneo] him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”
    • Revelation 19:10 - Then I fell down at his feet to worship [proskuneo] him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship [proskuneo] God.
    • Revelation 22:8-9 - I fell down to worship [proskuneo] at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship [proskuneo] God.
    Yet Jesus accepts worship.

    • Matthew 2:2 - “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
    • Matthew 2:11 - And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.
    • Matthew 14:31-33 - Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
    • Matthew 28:9 - And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
    • Matthew 28:16-17 - Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
    • John 9:35-38 - Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
    • Hebrews 1:6 - And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
    • Revelation 5:11-14 - Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
    He receives sacred service
    • Daniel 7:13-14 - “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve [latreuo, LXX] him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
    • Psalm 2:11-12 - Serve the Lord [Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
    • Revelation 22:1-3 - Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship [latreuo] him.
    He is prayed to and invocated
    • John 14:13-14 - Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
    • Acts 1:24-25 - And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
    • Acts 7:59-60 - And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
    • 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 - Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    • Acts 9:13-14 - But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.”
    • Acts 22:16 - And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
    • Romans 10:12-14 - For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
    • 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
    • c.f. 1 Corinthians 16:22, Revelation 22:20
    He is believed on and followed
    • John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
    • John 11:25 - Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
    • Acts 16:31 - And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
    • John 14:1 - “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
    • c.f. John 10:27
    He forgives sins
    • Mark 2:5-7 - And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    • Luke 5:22-25 - When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins“—he said to the man who was paralyzed—”I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And immediately he rose up before them and picked up what he had been lying on and went home, glorifying God.
    Jesus possesses the incommunicable attributes of deity
    Independence (aka aseity or self-existence)
    • John 5:26 - For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
    • c.f. I Am.
    • Micah 5:2 - But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.
    • Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    • John 1:1-2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
    • Hebrews 7:3 - He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
    • c.f. The Alpha and the Omega
    Unchangeableness (aka immutability)
    • Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
    • Hebrews 1:12 - like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
    et al (fullness of deity)
    • Colossians 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    • 2 Corinthians 4:4 - In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
    • Colossians 2:9-10 - For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
    • Hebrews 1:2-3 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
    Jesus is attributed with the works of deity
    God specifically disclaims any help or agency in creation outside himself.

    • Isaiah 44:24 - Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
    • c.f. Job 9:8
    And yet Jesus is repeatedly attributed with the work of creation.

    • John 1:3 - All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    • John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
    • 1 Corinthians 8:6 - Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
    • Hebrews 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
    • Hebrews 3:3-4 - For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
    Final judgment
    Scripture teaches that God will execute final judgment.

    • Romans 14:10 - For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God
    Yet the Son, not the Father, will judge.

    • 2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ
    • John 5:22 - The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son
    Whatever the Father does
    • John 5:19 - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
    Jesus claimed deity
    One with the Father
    • John 10:30-38 - [Jesus answered them] I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
    • John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
    • c.f. John 17:11,22
    • Luke 18:18-19 - And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. (c.f. Mark 10:17-18)
    Significance of the doctrine
    • John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he2 you will die in your sins.”
    God bless
  19. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

    ??? I don't care what Jesus claimed regarding deity. Or what he said about the Shabbat or whom he claimed to be. He's your god, not mine. I reject his claims based on our Scriptures, just like you accept them based on yours. And the Muslim individual in this thread sees Jesus through his Scriptures. This is entirely normal and perfectly reasonable.
  20. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

    They say he's HaShem, blessed be his name of Abraham and Jacob, peace be upon them. What's the mainstream Jewish view of this, does HaShem bbhn have any 'begotten' sons? Does He share His Throne with a Holy Spirit and a Son or is this pure blasphemy and Idolatry as we Muslims claim?
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