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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Sam is a former Muslim who knows the Qur'an and the Arabic language.
     
  2. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I am very familiar with the rules of the site. I have edited nothing from my post.
     
  3. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    yummy
     
  4. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    This thread has too many subjects. Why not make a separate thread when you want to discuss something other than the subject of this thread which is Isaiah 42?

    Getting back to Isaiah 42, let’s take another look at the text in question:

    (Hebrew to English translation)

    10: Sing to the Lord a new song, His praise from the end of the earth, those who go down to the sea and those therein, the islands and their inhabitants.

    The desert and its cities shall raise [their voice]; Kedar shall be inhabited with villages; the rock dwellers shall exult, from the mountain peaks they shall shout.

    Sela means rock in Hebrew, hence, rock dwellers.

    Sela is not a name of a specific place -- “rocky places” -- just as “mountain tops” is not a specific place; it is general.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) translation:
    10 Sing a new song to the Lord;
    sing His praise from the ends of the earth,
    you who go down to the sea with all that fills it,
    you islands with yourd]" style="box-sizing: border-box">[d] inhabitants.


    11 Let the desert and its cities shout,
    the settlements where Kedar dwells cry aloud.
    Let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy;
    let them cry out from the mountaintops.

    The key phrase is in verse 10, “the ends of the earth.”

    “Ends of the earth” makes it clear that all people were to praise God for what God has done and will do.

    The text continues to explain “ends of the earth”-- people who live near the sea – coast land; those who live on islands; those who live in the desert, and those living on mountains. All people means people living in all different geographic locations. “Kedar” is just an example among many.

    So, when put into context this is not a prophecy of Muhammad at all. The text says nothing about the Servant coming from Kedar.

    This is what I mean about Muslims reading their own theology into the text.

    When Bible Scriptures are put into context, there are no Scriptures which refer to Muhammad.
     
  5. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    The Qur'an is a New Song, a New Revelation.

    They did indeed sing praise to GOD.

    I showed several times Kedar were Tent Dwellers. The areas around Mecca and Medina are rocky. You would have to show Kedar were rock dwellers, and they sang a new song, and brought it to them.

    There is a Mountain called Sela in Arabia; Medina to be precise.

    Islam accomplishes this no doubt:



    Btw Muslims carried the message of Islam across the seas to Australia and America, and yes long before the Europeans showed up.




    Ameen

    Agreed

    [​IMG]

    Islam is reaching everywhere, from Japan to South America:

    Allah swt said; "It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it." Qur'an 9:33

    The Prophet pbuh explained; "Allah made the eastern and western parts of the earth draw near for me to see, and the rule of my Ummah will extend as far as I saw. Imam Ahmad recorded from Tamim Ad-Dari that he said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah saying,

    "This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not leave a house made of mud or hair, but will make this religion enter it, while bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam)."

    The evidence disagrees with you.

    This thread shows otherwise.
     
  6. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    It depends entirely on how one uses the Words, if one wants to use the "Bible"
    to prove a point or if one uses it to nourish the soul.

    Psalms 84:7,
    For those who pass through the Valley of Thorns He places wellsprings;
    their guide will be cloaked in blessings.

    (God provides water for the pilgrims to Jerusalem,
    leading them to bless their guides for choosing a water laden route.)

    Something that applies to this day today.
     
  7. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Always nourish the soul first and foremost, no doubt.

    In the spirit of friendly exchange, the reason why I don't think it in Jerusalem; I've shown elsewhere, King David pbuh put a Tribe in charge of it, a certain Arabic one at that....

    In Psalm 42:1 For the director of music. A maskil of the Sons of Korah. As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God.

    The name ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach Korahites; Sons of Korah in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. ; in the King James Version appears also as Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David

    We know this by reading Exodus 6: 24 The sons of Korah were Assir, Elkanah and Abiasaph. These were the Korahite clans.

    And when we read, 1 Chronicles 6:31

    31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

    32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them

    33 Here are the men who served, together with their sons: From the Kohathites: Heman, the musician, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel,

    34 the son of Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,

    35 the son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,

    36 the son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,

    37 the son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,

    When we read Number 26: 11 The line of Korah, however, did not die out. meaning they survived as the righteous will survive.

    Hence it is clear the Ark came to rest in the House of the Lord prior to it being moved to Jerusalem by Solomon from above verses. Meaning the House of God was not in Jerusalem


    So where is the House of God that the ko'-ra-its, Qorchi, , beno Qorach were looking after? And that can be identified by reading

    Psalms 84:

    1 How lovely is your dwelling place, Lord Almighty!

    2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.

    3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young— a place near your altar, Lord Almighty, my King and my God.

    4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you

    5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.

    6 As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

    7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.

    8 Hear my prayer, Lord God Almighty; listen to me, God of Jacob.

    9 Look on our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.

    10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

    11 For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.

    12 Lord Almighty, blessed is the one who trusts in you.


    The Key words in the above Psalm are

    1) People made pilgrimage to it

    2) It was in the Valley of Baka

    3) It had springs

    4) It will get flooded in Autumn Rains

    5) And this was not in Jerusalem, as King David longed for it, even to be its doorman and the Ark was moved from here to Jerusalem by Solomon. (Read 1 Chronicles, quoted above) Meaning this was the first house for the ark.


    Now when we compare this with the Quran, it says …

    Quran 3:96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: 97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.


    But why is it called Makkah today, and that is revealed in;

    Quran 48:24 And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within [the area of] Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing.

    Further, it has a spring that feeds everyone that visits and makes pilgrimage and indeed gets flooded into pools when it rains. History The Kaba in Makkah: It's size and history | SoundVision.com

    What is important is all the 5 clues found in Psalms 84 and 1st Chronicles fits identical as well as the keepers of this House of God were indeed called

    Quraish in Arabic , meaning

    1 : an Arab people of which Muhammad was a member and which from the 5th century was distinguished by a religious preeminence associated with its hereditary provision of the pre-Islamic custodians of the Kaaba at Mecca. 2 : a member of the Quraish people.


    Meaning even the tribe ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach ; Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David fits to identify the House of God was indeed Baka, which is now known as Makkah

    [​IMG]

    I believe Mecca has roots going back to some of the earliest patriarchs of the Abrahamic faith.

     
  8. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    Also, much is encrypted, hidden meanings.
    Which oft times is best not to know.

    Example,
    Nachmanidies had a student whose name was Avner,
    this student became an apostate and he rose to power
    after transgressing greatly he summoned his teacher,
    wanting to get into an argument with him.

    Nachmanides asked him, "What was it that brought you to such rebellion?"
    He replied,
    "Once I Heard you expound that you can find every detail of Jewish observance,
    as well as Everything that exists in the World, in the Torah Reading Haazinu,
    Deut 52:1-52,
    and since I knew it was impossible I renounced eveything and became a new man."

    His teacher replied,
    "I still stand by that, ask what you wish."

    Avner said,"If so, show me where my name is mentioned there."

    Nachmanides went into a corner and prayed,
    then returned and said,
    "It is written, I said that I would make an end of them, I will eradicate their rememberance from mankind."


    (In the Hebrew the third letter of every Word of the verse spells. Rabbi Avner)

    Avner asked, "Is there a cure?"

    Nachmonides responded,
    "You have heard the words of the verse itself"

    Telling him that he should dissapear and become forgotten as alluded to in the verse.

    Avner took a ship and went off to wherever the wind took him and was never heard from again.
     
  9. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    As I pointed out you are reading your own theology back into the text. The context shows you are mistaken in your interpretation as I have clearly shown you.
     
  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure I refuted your points. What did I miss?

    Who came and made Kedar Sing a New Song and when?

    I say it was the Prophet like Moses Deut 18:18, who rose up with a speech impediment, (illiteracy) took his people into exile, brought them out of idolatry, gave them pure Monotheism, spread GOD's Commandments near and far, banishing Idolatry from the Arabian Peninsular. Like Moses pbuh, born of two parents, a shepherd, married, children, received revelation in a cave, accepted by his people, became their leader, a statesman, Law giver, fought battles, grew old and passed away. The fulfilment of the Great Nation promised to Ishmael pbuh.

    Accusing me of reading back on the texts selectively is a cop out. Bring evidence, like so:

    Matthew looked back at the Torah texts and selected verses to fit around Jesus pbuh. He got caught in the act when he tried to apply verses from Zechariah 9 to Jesus pbuh....

    “They brought the donkey and the colt and put their coats on them, and he sat upon them.” (Matthew 21:7)

    In the verse above, Matthew describes Jesus as sitting on the two animals by his use of the plural pronoun αὐτῶν (auton). That Jesus ‘epekathisen epano auton’ (he sat on them), strengthens the position that Matthew has two animals in view and oddly and awkwardly has Jesus riding on both as he enters Jerusalem. And so the New American Bible comments:

    21:7 Upon them: upon the two animals; an awkward picture resulting from Matthew’s misunderstanding of the prophecy.”
    scripture

    The original text of Zechariah 9:9 shows that only one animal is intended as the one to be rode upon by the king, who is supposed to be Jesus pbuh in Matthew’s mind, and that the original text actually employs a Hebraic poetic device of parallelism of which Matthew was evidently unaware. Not understanding the concept of parallelism in Hebrew, Matthew commits the mistake of thinking that two animals were intended rather than one. The text of Zechariah reads as follows:

    “Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

    Matthew 21:5-7 confirms Matthew’s confusion of a quotation from the Old Testament that he tries to apply on Jesus. Herein lies evidence that Matthew had the capacity to invent history rather than report honestly events in a historical manner.

    “Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'”

    The above translation of Zacharia 9:9 comes from the New International Version.

    Matthew 21:5-7
    5 “Tell the people of Zion,[a]‘Now your king is coming to you. He is humble and riding on a donkey. He is riding on a young donkey, born from a work animal.’” 6 The followers went and did what Jesus told them to do. 7 They brought the mother donkey and the young donkey to him. They covered the donkeys with their coats, and Jesus sat on them. 8 On the way to Jerusalem, many people spread their coats on the road for Jesus.

    Here we see in Matthew’s Gospel, an attempt by the author to portray Jesus as a second Moses pbut. Thus we see Jesus Herod’s killing of Babies that mirrors Pharaohs killing of the Jewish babies. We see Jesus’ family retreat to Egypt. It is significant that nowhere else in the Bible are those two events recorded. There is no historical record of Herod’s slaughter of children, the family refuge in Egypt directly contradicts the account in Luke’s Gospel.

    Matthew proves his inability to accurately record other key events, but I'll leave that for another day. Using this example please show how I have manipulated the Tanakh to promote my own theology.

    If you can't do that, then show me how it should be done, bring a clear cut Prophecy from the Tanakh related to Jesus pbuh. That should be easy given as you claim, he's the son of YHWH, there with the father from the start, through whom everything was made. The one who would come and save the world from sin, one who would explain YHWH is a triune God, who always wanted the Jewish people; His chosen people to spot redemption when it manifested itself in the flesh.

    Over to you.
     
  11. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    After the flood and Noah who us Mohammad related too ?
     
  12. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I think your splitting hairs here. The people who became the country of Israel. Same thing if your looking back.
     
  13. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    The bible is actually saying the same thing as you that the Mesopotamian people are related but there is a reset at Noah.This is the table of nation in Genesis. Which one of Noahs sons is Mohammad related to ?
     
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Your 1985 Map from the Moody Bible Institution is very helpful. So there was a reset after Noah. Do you know, I forgot about that. I guess that means the Ishmaelites became seafood and my argument fails. Sorry to waste your time, and thank you for your help. :wave:
     
  15. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    What I demonstrated to you is that no one individual has a claim on the title "the son of God".
     
  16. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    No sorry you mis understand I made that sound like that.
    Abraham comes after Noah. So you not wrong about Ishmaelites being related to abraham.

    Abraham's family tree - Wikipedia

    Because you Dna is very general. I would be very skeptical of your general genealogy of Mohammad.
    all people from that area come from Noah. The bible is saying the same thing as the dna.
    but even if I wildly accepted from what u have said that Mohammad is from Ishmael. For arguments sake.
    Mohamad is making different truth claims than the Abraham descendants Israel and Moses.

    . Nevertheless, God saw Hagar’s suffering and promised that though this was not the child promised to Abraham, he would nevertheless make Ishmael’s descendants into a great nation also.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Spiritually Jesus is making the same claims as the Israelites. So there are things that repeat or over lap from the OT to NT.
    You need to read this carefully to understand why Jesus repeats things the OT covers.
    heres the correct link
    Deity of Christ Verse List
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  18. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    What does that matter? Jesus according to you is making 180 degree turn against teachings of Torah. 'Hear o Israel the Lord our GOD the Lord is ONE.'

    Also Ishmael pbuh was promised his descendants would become a Great Nation and they had to keep the covenant of circumcision.
     
  19. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    Surah 2:79 is too vague and narrow in scope to support such a broad conclusion as the corruption of the “Torah and Injeel.” And Christians are not even mentioned in the immediate context of the verse, so saying the New Testament is in view is an especially gratuitous assertion.

    But before examining surah 2:79 further, let’s make some general observations about the Quran:

    1. There is no reason to accept Quran as true. Using it as a “benchmark” is arbitrary and merely begs the question of its veracity without proving it. According to the Muslim sources, a man goes into a cave, foams at the mouth, snorts like a camel, feels like committing suicide for the umpteenth time, does not know whether an angel or Satan has spoken to him but eventually says, Believe me or else! heedless of the fact that his teachings contradict the previously-given Holy Scriptures. Such a man is no more credible than an illiterate man would be today who went into a cave, foamed at the mouth, and came out threatening those who did not believe him or enter the bathroom with their left foot.
    2. Even if the Bible were untrue, it would not automatically mean that the Quran was true.
    3. The original manuscripts of the Quran no longer exist, and the oldest copies of the Quran that exist differ from each other. As we saw in Habibi Zahra’s previous thread (the name of Mohammad in the Old testament), the Islamic Allah according to some Muslims is not faithful in preserving all his words, so there is no reason to assume the Quran today has been perfectly preserved.
    4. There came to be different versions of the Quranic text early on in Islamic history. As is well known, the caliph Uthman chose one version of the Quran and deliberately destroyed all the rest, thus arbitrarily putting an end to the problem of variant texts. Uthman was not an inspired prophet and so may have preserved a wrong version of the Quran while destroying the more correct version.
    5. Uthman did not entirely solve the problem as there are as many as 26 different, post-Uthmanic versions of the Quran in existence today, the two most commonly-used versions being the Hafs and the Warsh, whose texts disagree at several points. So the Quran has demonstrably not been perfectly preserved even after Uthman destroyed the variant Qurans.
    6. The Quran as an authoritative text by itself does not compare with the Bible as an authoritative text. The Bible is far more self-contained, and its meaning is derived from comparing Scripture with Scripture. By contrast, the Quran requires supplementation from collections of hearsay produced long after Muhammad--the ahadith. So when comparing authoritative texts, the right comparison is not between the Bible and the Quran. Rather, a more accurate comparison is between the Bible and the Quran plus the ahadith, and those two sources as further supplemented by uninspired early biographies of Muhammad and tafsir (commentary) produced by uninspired Muslims. The ahadith are contradictory (e.g., the Shia and Sunni disagree on which ahadith are correct) and "heavily edited" by their uninspired collectors. Again, as we saw in HZ’s previous thread, the Islamic Allah is not careful to preserve all his words, so a cloud of doubt looms over the ahadith too.
    7. And yet orthodox Muslims are forced to consider the ahadith authoritative. The same ahadith, however, also witness to the imperfect preservation of the Quran. As someone alluded to before, the verses originally in the Quran on breastfeeding adult men were eaten by a goat or sheep. No doubt to the relief of not a few Muslimahs.

    On surah 2:79 more particularly, the verse merely says some people wrote some false things. Like many Quranic verses, it is vague, lacking in specifics, and as pointed out above, depends on uninspired, outside sources in order to be understood. And yet the Quran claims to be clear. However, the verse clearly does not say that a few Jews in ancient Nabatea managed to alter all the copies, translations, and patristic quotations of the Holy Scriptures, both Jewish and Christian, throughout the whole world. In fact, what surah 2:79 says was written (assuming the verse has any basis in fact at all—a big assumption) may have had nothing directly to do with the Scriptures themselves, but as another suggested earlier in the thread, the verse may refer to a work such as the Talmud. Again, if surah 2:79 teaches that the Quran does not confirm the Bible, then the Quran contradicts itself, since the Quran repeatedly and unambiguously confirms the Bible’s inspiration, authority, and preservation.
     
  20. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    "Did the translators bungled it?" Finding "Ahmad" in Isaiah 42:1 is akin to Deedat's finding "Allah" in Hellenized Hebrew, "Alleluia" as was pointed out in HZ's previous thread. The source here bungled it because in the Hebrew the word is not "ahmed" but "etmak" אֶתְמָךְ -- that's a final kaf, not daleth, on the end of the word in question.
     
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