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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    From the rest of the article you posted, your position is Ishmael pbuh was settled in the Desert of Paran, which is in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt and not Arabia.

    All of Ishmael's sons; Nabajoth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, Kedemah all settled in Egypt.

    So Egyptian Africans should be closely related to the Jews, yet we find Arabs and Jews are genetically almost impossible to tell apart, sharing the same Y chromosome;

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

    Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

    The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion.

    Next Archaeology shows Ishmael's Sons lived in Arabia as tent dwellers.

    In Arabic and Hebrew the term arab means "nomad" (synonymous with bedouin), and originally referred only to the nomadic people who roamed the Arabian Peninsula. Later, it was used to designate all the inhabitants of the peninsula--both nomads and town-dwellers.

    We read about the nomadic nature of Ishmael and his sons, when the Bible refers to the tents of Kedar (Psalm 120:5; Song 1:5); or when it speaks of Arabians pitching their tents (Isaiah 13:20); or when it mentions the caravans of Tema, one of Ishmael’s sons (Job 6:19); or when it compares Israel with somebody sitting by the road like “an Arabian in the wilderness” (Jeremiah 3:2). Even though such nomadic nature would somewhat change in time, the Bible still uses those terms in respect to Ishmael and his descendants, when addressing prophetic events of the future.

    Arab are also known as "those who speak* clearly". *'Recite'

    Perhaps another meaning of New Song:




    The Kedarites are mentioned in a number of places in the Bible, and always referred to as nomads.

    Psalm 120:5 This Psalm is a cry of distress, as the writer has fled and lives in a place called Meshech in the tents of the Kedarites.

    Isaiah 42:11 Kedar is mentioned in a song of praise.

    Jeremiah 2:10 The children of Israel are advised to check with Kedar and see if it is an ordinary thing for a people to forsake their gods and turn to others.

    Jeremiah 49:28 This passage presents us with a prophecy against Arabia (Hazor and Kedar) foretelling that Nebuchadnezzar a king of Babylon will destroy them.

    Ezekiel 27:21 In this lament over the city of Tyre, it is mentioned that Arabia, and the princes of Kedar traded lambs, rams, and goats with Tyre.

    The same John L.Mckenzie who wrote papers against Islam. I wonder why he would push for Paran being in Egypt?
    Unfortunately for him unbiased Christian Scholars refute him:

    Who is Saudi Arabia in the Bible?
    Many archeological and historical researchers and Bible commentaries have understood for a long time that the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham and Sarah’s Egyptian maid, Hagar. We read the following prophecy about Ishmael in Genesis 16:7-12:

    “Now the Angel of the LORD found [Hagar] by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. And He said, ‘Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?’ She said, ‘I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.’ The Angel of the LORD said to her, ‘Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.’ Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, ‘I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.’

    The Critical and Experimental Commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown says: “… even in dwelling with his brethren, would he maintain his characteristic hostility; and… he shall… dwell in the presence of his brethren, viz, in Arabia.”

    We read that subsequently, Abraham sent away his concubines and his sons of his concubines, including Hagar and Ishmael, “eastward… to the country of the east” (Genesis 25:6). It is commonly agreed that Hagar and Ishmael settled in the land which is known today as Saudi Arabia, where Ishmael also died “in the presence” or “east of” all his brethren (Genesis 25:18).

    The prophesied twelve sons or princes of Ishmael are listed in Genesis 25:12-16. They include Tema, Dumah and the most prominent son, Kedar (compare Ezekiel 27:21; Psalm 120:5; Isaiah 21:13-17). This means that Arabs are sometimes referred to in Scripture as Arabia; Ishmaelites; Hagrites or Hagarenes in the Authorized Version (descendants of Hagar, Psalm 83:6); or as the tents or princes or people of Kedar. As an aside, Ishmael’s daughter Mahalath or Basemath married Esau, the first-born son of Isaac and twin brother of Jacob (Genesis 28:9; 36:3).

    Common names among modern Arabs are Ibrahim for Abraham and Ismail for Ishmael. Funk and Wagnall’s New Encyclopedia states in volume 13 that “Muslims regard themselves as the descendants of Ishmael.” The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary says that “all Arabs claim descent from Ishmael.” The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia says that the “Arabs themselves derive their descent from Ishmael.”

    Who is Saudi Arabia in the Bible? | Church of the Eternal God

    Abraham sent his wife Hagar and Son Ishmael, peace be upon them all “eastward… to the country of the east” (Genesis 25:6). It is commonly agreed that Hagar and Ishmael settled in the land which is known today as Saudi Arabia, where Ishmael also died “in the presence” or “east of” all his brethren (Genesis 25:18).

    We read that at the time of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, descendants of Ishmael’s second-born son Kedar, the “men of the East,” would be conquered, compare Jeremiah 49:28-29. <<<East of Iraq

    Midian:

    Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.” Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian” referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back” of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings.

    In light of the above, more verses on Paran:

    "Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

    "After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

    "So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"

    "These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

    The wilderness of Paran: The Great and Terrible wilderness from which God dawned upon Mt. Sinai! (Deut 1:19)

    What's Moses pbuh got to do with the New Song from Kedar?

    Incidentally some Scholars do think Moses pbuh made Pilgrimage to Mecca:




    Now you bring King David pbuh into it :/

    I showed in post 23 Mohammad in the bible to Stuart Lawrence, references to Kedar being in Arabia, and showed David pbuh entrusted the Quraish Tribe to be guardians over GOD's House in Mecca.

    Say no more :)
     
  2. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

    "Israel is my firstborn son" is not literal. it's symbolic. so it is an allusion and that whole story has prophetic implications all through it. Jesus went to Egypt and came out of her. Jesus was tempted in the wildness for 40 days. the first born was covered by the blood. I can get you a whole list if you want.

    If Jesus is spiritual Israel. Jesus is the 1 and only son of God.

    God bless
     
  3. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Jesus has a linage.
    There's no linage to Mohammad.
    Those Arabian places are mentioned a few times in the bible because there close to Israel. And different people had dealings with those places and people. David being one of them.

    God bless.
     
  4. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    v22
    And you shall say to Pharaoh, "So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel"

    v23,
    So I say to you , send out my son so that he will worship Me,
    but if you refuse to send him out,
    I am going to slay your firstborn.

    It was not something that had happened yet, it was a warning, and would be the last plague. Pharaoh had the ability to repent but refused.

    Rashi comments,
    Firstborn, an expression of greatness, simple meaning.
     
  5. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    To whom?

    DNA proves linage to Abraham pbuh

    I agree.
     
  6. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    Again, it's not a prophecy. And we don't get to choose if Gd's meaning was literal or not. Especially in a plain text, it says what it says. In other words-no spin.
     
  7. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    A country can't literally be a first born son. It's symbolic or non-literal.
    If Jesus is spiritual Israel's 1 only son of God.It can have a prophetic allusion to it.
     
  8. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I would have to see authentic evidence of that.
     
  9. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    Gd is not talking about a country. He is talking about a people. Not only that, we have angels being called sons of Gd. Solomon is called a son of Gd. The whole nation in Deuteronomy is called "the children of the Lord your Gd" . The prophet told us that the Israel was Gd's son and Ephraim is His first born. So, not that unusual. Actually it's so common it is a theme. Where else would Jesus get the idea to call Gd his father? In the Scriptures, like the rest of us.
     
  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    I showed dna studies done in my response at post 101 confirm Arabs and Jews share almost identical Male ancestry, which means the dna of Syrian based Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi, the 34th Grandson of the Prophet pbuh goes back to Abraham pbuh.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

    Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

    The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion.
     
  11. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls the best preserved by GOD Almighty was the Great Isaiah Scroll. Scholars from all faiths say it speaks about future events, so I find it odd that Isaiah would prophesy about a Prophet that had passed away more than 1,200 years earlier. Can you throw some light on that please?

    Could you also explain verses 42-45

    23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

    24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

    25 Therefore he hath poured upon him* the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

    *Jacob


    [​IMG]

    Yes I would imagine so. Kedar did indeed fall from Idolatry, a good many of their men fell in battle, but ultimately when they accepted GOD's will, they sung a New Song and continue to do so 1,400 years on.
     
  12. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    Did Muhammad have sex with a nine year old girl?
     
  13. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    Islam is such an intellectually repugnant religion that it has to use the threat of death and the loss of family to keep people from leaving.

    If you religion has to kill people to keep them from leaving, it's safe to say it is dumb.
     
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Some reports say she was 19, but yes majority consensus is she was 9.
     
  15. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    There no such threat. There was the 'wars of apostasy' following the Prophet's death, as the devil wished to extinguish God's plan. Thankfully the Muslims won, and Islam spread. Once things settled down the Scholars gave verdicts on when it is permissible to kill an apostate. Treason and inciting disharmony amongst the Muslims being given as justification. Other than that people are free to leave, as there's no compulsion in religion.

    Some are people proud and do severe ties of kinship if someone leaves the religion, but that's not from the teachings of Islam.

    What's the punishment for apostasy in Christianity?
     
  16. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    I like how you say say "some reports", because Muslims throughout history have accepted that Muhammad was a pedophile.
     
  17. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    Muslim scholars throughout history have considered apostasy a crime against God and as such is punishable by death.

    Intellectual dissent is an expectation in Christianity. Christ taught that the Gospel is spread like seeds, some of which take root in good soil and bear fruit, some never take to it, in some it lasts for a time before losing it.

    Islam does practice compulsion in that if you are born into it, you are to stick with it as well are your descendents.

    Although that doesn't really bother me as much as a 53 year old man having sexual relations with a nine year old girl. There is nothing like playing dolls with a little girl one day and making her your sexual partner the next.

    Cults are kinda funny about letting their leaders have extra wives and sex with children like that.
     
  18. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Comment by Carson:

    58. [. . .] Jesus [. . .]. If he had wanted to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been simpler to say, ‘Before Abraham was, I was.’ Instead, bringing forward egō eimi found in verses 24, 28, Jesus says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Whatever doubts may attach themselves to whether egō eimi should be taken absolutely in verses 24, 28, here there can be none. Moreover, the strong linguistic connections to Isaiah 40-55 are supported by obvious links: cf. ‘I, the Lord’ — with the first of them and the last — I am he’ (Isaiah 41:4); ‘Yes, and from ancient days I am he’ (Isaiah 43:13). Cf. Psalm 90:2. That the Jews take up stones to kill him presupposes they understand these words as some kind of blasphemous claim to deity. [. . .]

    — D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (PNTC), page 358 (Eerdmans, 1991).


    Comment by Bruce:

    8:57, 58 [. . .]

    Jesus’ reply to their protest repeats the affirmation ‘I am He’ (egō eimi), used twice already in this chapter (verses 24, 28), and does so in a way which underlines the magnitude of the claim it expresses. He echoes the language of the God of Israel, who remains the same from everlasting to everlasting: ‘I, the Lord, the first and the last, I am He’ (Isaiah 41:4), How can a man who is ‘not yet fifty years old’ speak like that? Only if he speaks as the Word that had been with God from the beginning and was now incarnate on earth. Abraham looked forward to the time of his incarnation, but he himself existed before his incarnation, before Abraham was born (genesthai), before the worlds were made. The Word of the eternal God cannot be other than eternal. So much in this context is conveyed by egō eimi. And if we suppose that the conversation was carried on in Aramaic or even Hebrew, then Jesus could have uttered the very words ’ ani hu’ [אני היא], as though he were applying them to himself.

    — F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, pages 205-206 (Eerdmans, 1983).
     
  19. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Perhaps you should re-read the rules.

    Statement of Purpose - Christianity and World Religion Statement of Purpose


    “Mutual respect means that members will not mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs, or make posts that are disruptive to the peace and harmony of the forum.”
     
  20. Greyy

    Greyy Well-Known Member

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    It is against the rules to make a post accusing a member of breaking the rules. Regardless of whether that determination is factual or not.

    It's not against the rules to point out that Islam was created a pedophile (as defined by all defintions) and is maintained by the threat of violence. That's a fact.

    Here's a creepy photo of Trump and his daughter. It's quite suggestive and the mating parrots don't help.

    [​IMG]

    That's objective facts. Facts are good.

    Oh - you editted the accusation from your post.
     
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