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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    A very misused, misunderstood verse. Here is my understanding of it. It depends on knowing the correct Hebrew.

    Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.

    This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.

    The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.

    Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?

    36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    What Jesus is saying that if those men of authority judged the works of the law. Then if I do the works of my father I am God's son.

    John 10
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    How can Jesus give his followers eternal life if he isn't the son of God ?
    I mean honestly the gospels has many recources of Jesus saying this type of thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  2. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The quote is from Peter, one of the Apostles.

    Where did James say "Paul was a liar and warned people to stay away from the wolf who entered the early Church?"
     
  3. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    It is alluded to in Genesis 22:

    9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and E)" data-cr="#cen-ESV-557E" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, F)" data-cr="#cen-ESV-560F" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">“Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for G)" data-cr="#cen-ESV-560G" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.

    Jesus is called the Lamb of God.

     
  4. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    All prophets of their time were the way to to the Father, follow and obey the Prophet and you were on the path to success. Jesus pbuh was showing you the way....

    Covered in post 12 Mohammad in the bible

    Showing you the way to GOD, never would he claim to be GOD and condemn himself.

    Just shows me to worship God with sincerity and follow the Torah, (truth).


    This is when Messiah comes to be with those who are sincere and fight those who rebel against GOD. He comes to establish God's Law for the whole Earth, (Shariah in Arabic). The Earth is made New in a sense. He will live for some years, have children, reintroduce the animal sacrificial system and eventually die. The Kingdom will be handed back to GOD.


    Disciples and followers are all part of the expanding Trinity are they :/

    Simply illustrates saying, 'I am' is not a claim to divinity. Maybe they interrupted him before he could say something like, Before Abraham was 'I am' said, etc etc. They picked up stones, and Jesus pbuh ducked out quickly. Also why not make a true claim to Divinity by saying, before Adam was 'I am' ???

    What does a illiterate Arab in 7th Century Arabia have to do with it? He could easily have said, Jesus pbuh died on the cross for your sins, promised to return in 'that' Generation, but he won't until we fix a few things...

    But no, GOD tells Muhammad pbuh, He saved Jesus pbuh from the hands of his enemies.

    P66 for Thomas' missing words, and Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John | to view the encounter with the blind man. You will notice the verse is on the right margin, the work of a scribe who thought it would make a nice addition. :/



    Please be careful and do your homework, for it is well known Scholars debate the exact translation of this verse, and the two sides of that debate are seen in the various translations. Some scholars believe that “glory” is used in an adjectival sense, and that the verse should be translated as above in the NIV. Versions that follow suit are the KJV and the Amplified Version.

    Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible, NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The NASB is a typical example. It reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” The difference between the translations is immediately apparent. In the NIV, etc., we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the NAS and other versions we await the “appearing of the glory” of God our Savior (this is a use of “Savior” where the word is applied in the context to God, not Christ.

    Of course, the glory will come at the appearing, but Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke 9:26). God’s Word also teaches that when Christ comes, he will come with his Father’s glory: “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory” (Matt. 16:27). Keeping in mind that what is revealed in other places in the Bible about a certain event often clarifies what is being portrayed in any given verse, it becomes apparent from other scriptures referring to Christ’s coming that the Bible is not trying to portray God and Christ as one God.

    It's plain to see why you Christians are in such a muddle. The Bible is ever evolving and you impose 21st Century Modern English Language onto the customs and events of First Century Palestine. It doesn't work, for worship back then had a much wider meaning:

    Synonym Discussion of worship
    revere, reverence, venerate, worship, adore mean to honor and admire profoundly and respectfully. revere stresses deference and tenderness of feeling (a professor revered by her students). reverence presupposes an intrinsic merit and inviolability in the one honored and a similar depth of feeling in the one honoring (reverenced the academy's code of honor). venerate implies a holding as holy or sacrosanct because of character, association, or age (heroes still venerated). worship implies homage usually expressed in words or ceremony (worships their memory). adore implies love and stresses the notion of an individual and personal attachment (we adored our doctor).

    WORSHIP, verb transitive

    1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

    Thou shalt worship no other God. Exodus 34:14.

    2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

    Nor worshipd with a waxen epitaph.

    3. To honor with extravagant love and extreme submission; as a lover.

    With bended knees I daily worship her.

    Jesus pbuh recognised they had enormous respect for their teacher and the early Christians knew the difference too:

    Apostles creed A.D. 215 text, - son not to be worshipped

    "I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,

    You can continue in your own little bubble, but certainly shouldn't be promoting your beliefs, especially when you claim to follow the GOD of Abraham pbuh:

    Exodus 20:
    1 God spoke all these words, to respond:
    2 "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
    3 You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.

    Listen to a blessed Rabbi break it down for you:


     
  5. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    That's profound, but there are 2 problems.

    Abraham pbuh sacrifices a male goat, and in Jewish tradition that means it has to be physically perfect, and then it gets totally destroyed on the altar.

    Secondly Jesus pbuh is described as the 'Lamb of God' only in John's Gospel. He is beaten and bloodied, crucified not sacrificed on the altar, and taken down within 6 hours. Besides setting a new record for cruci'fiction', his body is saved and preserved in a tomb.

    How do you make the link? :scratch:
     
  6. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    This back and forth is pointless, just do us all a favour, spare us the Apologetics and show us a clear passage where Jesus pbuh says,

    "I am The Lord your GOD, Worship Me."
     
  7. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    No where in the Pauline New Testament. Read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls and letter of James pbuh.
     
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    So why did Mohammad consider the gospels sacred?
    Jesus, on numerous occasions in them prophesied he would be killed or crucified. You have to believe all those statements were corrupted text, for no prophet of God can prophesy incorrectly. All of the writers of the gospels claimed Christ was seen by his disciples after he rose from the dead. You must believe all of that is corrupted text as well. You must believe the writers of the gospels were blatant liars to claim Christ died and rise again.
    John for example claimed Christ spoke to him when he hung on the cross. So the muslim version, that the disciples mistook the person who was crucified for Christ does not bear credibility.
    So I repeat, why did Mohammad consider the gospels sacred I Muslims have to claim huge amounts of what is written in them is corrupted texts and the people who wrote them must have been blatant liars?
     
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Besides all of the above, Jewish history states Christ died. Yet a man, who lived six hundred years later claimed it is false.
     
  10. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The Bible Dictionary does not support your view. It's still a song. "These redemptive Acts are rehearsed and celebrated in the hymnic portions of Revelation."

    If "new Song" means new covenant, then it means new covenant in Isaiah 42.

    What is the new covenant?

    The New Covenant (or New Testament) is the promise that God makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant. Got Questions.

    The Baptismal formula is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Baptising in the name of Jesus means to bapti by the authority of Jesus, using the formula above.

    Peter was the first to preach to a Gentile; it was not added later.

    We don't know if Paul encountered Jesus before Jesus' death, but we know that he was familiar with the teachings of Jesus because he was persecuting Christians before he encountered Jesus on Damascus Road.

    Paul was welcomed by Jesus' Apostles and by Jesus' brother, James. Acts 15.

    Luke was an historian.

    Luke 1:
    Many have undertaken to compile a narrative about the events that have been fulfilleda]" style="box-sizing: border-box">[a] among us, 2 just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us. 3 It also seemed good to me, since I have carefully investigated everything from the very first, to write to you in an orderly sequence, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things about which you have been instructed.

    Jesus was rejected by most of the Jewish religious leaders, but not by His Jewish followers.

    The animal sacrificial system for sin atonement will never happen because it is no longer necessary and didn't work in the first place. If there is a new Temple built the sacrifices will be sacrifices for what God has done at the cross -- IOW's sacrifices of thanksgiving.

    The Qur'an teaches that Jesus is the Messiah and does not teach that another will come.
     
  11. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    This is news to me.

    We consider the Tawrat, Zaboor and Injeel to be sacred uncorrupted texts. No doubt about it and any Muslim who things otherwise has fallen into grave error.

    We also consider what you have today contains parts of the original messages, but that which disagrees with the Qur'an is rejected. That which enjoins good is likely from GOD and that which is scientifically wrong, disparaging towards Prophets, enjoining wrong etc is rejected. Anything left, is considered possible from GOD, we don't argue unless it be to refute something or correct misunderstandings.

    Jesus pbuh didn't write anything that we can examine today. I'm guessing anything you provide showing he 'prophesied' about his own alleged death is from writings that were compiled 'after' he was taken up to GOD.

    Is there a prophecy in the OT that we could perhaps look at? We have Jewish brothers on the thread, that I'm sure would be happy to cast their Torah trained eyes over any verses you think helpful.

    We know Mark was the first Gospel to be written, he was a non eyewitness, says Simon carried the cross and ends with an empty tomb. Nothing more.

    The other Gospel writers used Mark as a source and added to the story. I don't know what intent these unknown Gospel writers had, that knowledge is with GOD alone. What your Scholars do say is the originals of what was written, recording about who said what, and when have ALL been lost.

    You can only reconstruct the complete NT to the 4th Century, a gap of hundreds of years.

    Was Jesus pbuh given the ability to change his appearance, including his voice? Was he able to move from one place to the next at incredible speeds? Did he pray to be saved, and if so did GOD answer his prayers. Does he tells us when and if prayers were ever answered?

    If yes, then perhaps he made someone else look like him, whilst he slipped away unharmed?
    If you could show me, then we can look at those claims :)

    Remember, non Christians don't mind what you believe, as it's a free World and there's no compulsion in Religion.

    Actually rather than continually go off track, perhaps you could start a new thread, and copy this over for your response?
     
  12. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    I'll answer this in the Debate Non-Christian Religions section. I would start a thread myself, but alas non Christians are banned from doing so.
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    But the problem we have is, the writers of the gospels all believe Jesus died at calvary, Jewish history also states he did. Yt, six hundred years later, a man who was not there claimed it was all false. You see the problem dont you
     
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic, New Covenant = New Testament. <<<< Christian understanding. Why can't Muslims apply it to advent of Islam?

    Perhaps you or Lawrence could start a new thread: Debate Non-Christian Religions


    You are using the Final Revelation to make a case for not believing in it? Not sure it helps you, but go ahead and post the verse.
     
  15. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    It's called context.

    No reason it can't be here.

    My point was that the Qur'an says Jesus is the Messiah in reply to someone saying Jews were waiting for the Messiah.
     
  16. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The Qur'an confirms what we have today since our manuscripts pre-date Islam by several hundred years.
     
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    John 3:16King James Version (KJV)

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    God gave his 1 and only son.
    So where, Jesus claims to be the son of God. He is claiming deity. There is only one Son of God and Jesus claimed to be it in many scriptures. When Jesus said that to the Israelites of the time they had no doubt what he was saying and it got him crucified.
    IF Jesus can grant us eternal life he must have deity.

    In his early ministry if he said a lot of these things publicly he would of been killed before the correct timing. That's why he only says a lot of things in his last year.

    God bless
     
  18. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    In that case, according to the Book of Exodus(4:22), I can make the same claim.
     
  19. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Exodus 4:22New International Version (NIV)
    22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

    Ok. This is a dual prophecy or allusion. The OT is full of them.
    Israel is the country that was blessed and chosen of God and the prophets point to Christ.
    I know where we are going with this. Those prophetic statements or allusions that point to Christ in the OT also have a fulfillment to Israel.
    Jesus went to a lot of trouble, to spiritually fulfill prophecy symbolically as Israel had in the physical. This was to move on as messiah of the New Covenant.
    Much of scripture has dual fulfillment or even many fulfillment's.
    bless you I have to go for a while.
     
  20. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    This is NOT a prophecy.
     
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