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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    And the bible version you read from is?
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    NIV
     
  3. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Excellent, no Trinitarian should leave home without it. I will use the NIV were possible, but also the KJV and ESV.

    In Isaiah 42:10 it reads,
    "Sing to the Lord a new song,
    his praise from the ends of the earth,
    you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
    you islands, and all who live in them."

    New Song = New Covenant.

    So we need Arabia to make the pieces fall into place:

    I have honed in on this issue as it's relevant to the thread. If you wish to start a new thread asking why Muslims pick and choose, then feel free and I'll see you there.

    Kedar was the Son of Ishmael pbut and the Bible tells us:

    Kedar is noted as being the place of the men of the east Ezek 27:21 where Babylon would go to spoil. Suggested to inhabit vast tracts, including the north-western deserts of Arabia, (1) and southeast of Damascus and eastern segments of Transjordan (3) and northwest of Medina (14) The tribe appears to have incorporated his brother’s family and found it’s base in Dumah a strategic caravanserai and trading city. Anyone intending to travel from the south to Mesopotamia were obliged to pass through this centre, or an alternate to the Northwest to Damascus. (4) Kedar

    Kaaba, and the superintendents of the idolatrous sacrifices in the valley of Mina, from whence they derived their classical synonym MINAEI It is quite uncertain when they were superseded by the Ishmaelite Arabs of the family of Kedar, whose descendants, according to immemorial Arabic tradition, settled in the Hedjaz; and one tribe of whom was named Koreish (collegit undique), “quod circa Meccam, congregati degerent.” (Canus ap. Golium, in voc., cited by Forster, Geog. of Arabia, vol. i. p. 248, n.)

    So what do we know about the Koreish from the Bible:

    The Psalms is accredited to King David as it is written in Psalm 19:1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

    Eleven psalms are attributed to the Sons of Korah Psalm 42, Psalms 44 - 49, Psalm 84, Psalm 85, Psalm 87, and Psalm 88.

    In Psalm 42:1 For the director of music. A maskil of the Sons of Korah. As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God.

    The name ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach Korahites; Sons of Korah in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. ; in the King James Version appears also as Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David

    We know this by reading Exodus 6: 24 The sons of Korah were Assir, Elkanah and Abiasaph. These were the Korahite clans.

    And when we read, 1 Chronicles 6:31

    31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

    32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them

    33 Here are the men who served, together with their sons: From the Kohathites: Heman, the musician, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel,

    34 the son of Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,

    35 the son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,

    36 the son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,

    37 the son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,

    When we read Number 26: 11 The line of Korah, however, did not die out. meaning they survived as the righteous will survive.

    Hence it is clear the Ark came to rest in the House of the Lord prior to it being moved to Jerusalem by Solomon from above verses. Meaning the House of God was not in Jerusalem


    So where is the House of God that the ko'-ra-its, Qorchi, , beno Qorach were looking after? And that can be identified by reading


    Psalms 84:

    1 How lovely is your dwelling place, Lord Almighty!

    2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.

    3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young— a place near your altar, Lord Almighty, my King and my God.

    4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you

    5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.

    6 As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

    7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.

    8 Hear my prayer, Lord God Almighty; listen to me, God of Jacob.

    9 Look on our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.

    10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

    11 For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.

    12 Lord Almighty, blessed is the one who trusts in you.


    The Key words in the above Psalm are

    1) People made pilgrimage to it

    2) It was in the Valley of Baka

    3) It had springs

    4) It will get flooded in Autumn Rains

    5) And this was not in Jerusalem, as King David longed for it, even to be its doorman and the Ark was moved from here to Jerusalem by Solomon. (Read 1 Chronicles, quoted above) Meaning this was the first house for the ark.


    Now when we compare this with the Quran, it says …

    Quran 3:96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: 97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.


    But why is it called Makkah today, and that is revealed in


    Quran 48:24 And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within [the area of] Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing.


    Further, it has a spring that feeds everyone that visits and makes pilgrimage and indeed gets flooded into pools when it rains. History The Kaba in Makkah: It's size and history | SoundVision.com


    What is important is all the 5 clues found in Psalms 84 and 1st Chronicles fits identical as well as the keepers of this House of God were indeed called

    Quraish in Arabic , meaning

    1 : an Arab people of which Muhammad was a member and which from the 5th century was distinguished by a religious preeminence associated with its hereditary provision of the pre-Islamic custodians of the Kaaba at Mecca. 2 : a member of the Quraish people.


    Meaning even the tribe ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach ; Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David fits to identify the House of God was indeed Baka, which is now known as Makkah.

    btw "Behold my servant, (Ahmd אחמד ) my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations."
    (Isaiah 42:1)

    Ahmad was a name used in the Qur'an for the Prophet pbuh, who came from the Tribe of Quraysh, the guardians of the Kaaba in Mecca.
     
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Well as the bible states the covenant I am under is an eternal covenant, it is valid for today, so I'm fine with it
     
  5. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Can you show me where it's mentioned in your Bible?
    Did you start another thread related to the other issues you raised?
     
  6. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Isiah ch9 is a good chapter on this.

    Dont know how much you have read the bible. But it speaks of the present earth and heaven passing away, and a new heaven and new earth coming. On the last day of this present earth Christ will come.
    So, the covenant christians believe Christ died to usher in, is the covenant in existence for all time, while this present earth exists.
    Plus, it wouldn't make any sense for God to send Jesus to die for peoples sins, only to say a few hundred years later, that is no longer applicable, you must now return to a law of righteousness.
    Though of course, I realise you don't believe Jesus died at Calvary.
    Such a belief must mean, you view the writers of the gospels as blatant liars. For they all spoke of Christs disciples seeing him after his resurrection,, and John for example speaking of the nail marks from the cross imprinted I him
     
  7. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    I'm told this section of the forum is not for debates, so will say ok thanks for explaining, thanks for remaining polite in our discussion and congratulations on being the first Christian in 16 years, that I've come across whose actually accepted, yes Muslims are right regarding a Prophet to come from Arabia, though you remain under no obligation to follow.

    Peace be upon you.
     
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but you have misunderstood my response. I passed no comment on your explanation regarding the bible showing a prophet would come from Arabia. If anything I wrote suggested I did, I can only apologise for misleading you with my words.
    May I thank you also for your politeness in discussion.
    And may i just add. The muslim i encountered who in my view most wonderfully reflected a noble heart, said he believed the Jews had a right to live in their biblical homeland, it was there's by right, and he spends his life trying to convince others of this. Far too often religion becomes almost a tribal affair of arguing about who is right and who is wrong. When someone from any religion transcends this I think it is the best portrayal they can give of their beliefs.
    Indeed, I saw photos of christians and muslims forming protective circles for each other I Egypt to they could take turns in praying in somewhat more security. I thought that was nice.
    God bless you
     
  9. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    Not all the bible is corrupted ..some of the doctrines are corrupted yet lots of things are true ..including the true doctrine the prophecy of Mohammad in the bible
     
  10. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    The prophet who calls to believe in Christianity and Judaism cannot be a false prophet..even Christians once were calling to kill non Christians does that make Jesus a false spirit of god??

    The false prophets are those who are denying the prophecy of Mohammad

    Prophet Mohammad was always calling for peace especially in contact with jews and Christians

    Look at the teaching of Mohammad in the Quran:

    Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind

    Is that a call of killing or peace???
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    One of islams fifteen major prophets( Zechariah) states a time is coming when the armies of the world will attack Jerusalem, Christ will appear and defeat them, he will fight for the Israelites and they will have peace.
    Do you believe him?
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It's the best documented of all ancient texts.
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    There is a problem with identifying any groups on any basis.
    Would that be those who go to church or those who are
    actual members or which Christians?

    Any group based thinking is from man.
     
  14. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    yes Israelites are those who invaded Jerusalem and Christ will appear to defeat them
     
  15. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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  16. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    No, Zechariah states Christ will fight for Israel and israels enemies will be defeated, and the clans of Israel will have peace
    Do you believe Zechariah?
     
  17. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The Wilderness of Paran is not Mecca.

    According to the Holy Bible Ishmael settled in Paran and married an Egyptian from whom he had twelve sons:

    "Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, ‘I cannot watch the boy die.’ And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob. God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.' Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt." Genesis 21:13-21

    The Holy Bible locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah. John L. McKenzie in his Dictionary of the Bible notes:

    Paran (Hb pa'ran, most frequently the name of a desert region). The place name Elparan (Gn 14:6) no doubt is associated with the desert; this place is thought to be identical with Elath* by some scholars. The desert of Paran was the home of the Ishmaelites (Gn 21:21). It was, the itinerary according to P (cf. PENTATEUCH), reached by the Israelites after the desert of Sinai (Nm 10:12), and they camped in this desert for some time (Nm 10:12; 13:3, 26, mission and return of the scouts). In Dt 1:1 Paran is vaguely defined as a place in the desert. Hadad of Edom passed through the desert of Paran on his journey from Midian* to Egypt (1 Kings 11:18). The mountains of Paran are the place from which the theophany* appears (Dt 33:2; Hab. 3:3); like most other names mentioned in the theophanies, Paran reflects the region S of Judah. The desert of Paran is probably that region of the Negeb* which lies S of Kadesh-barnea*. (McKenzie, p. 637)

    Compare the following OT passages:

    "In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar." Genesis 14:5-7

    "On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. They set out, this first time, at the LORD's command through Moses." Numbers 10:11-13

    "So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back. After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran." Numbers 12:15-16

    "The LORD said to Moses, "Send some men to explore the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. From each ancestral tribe send one of its leaders.' So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites." Numbers 13:1-3

    "At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land. They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. They gave Moses this account: 'We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.'" Numbers 13:25-27

    "These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)" Deuteronomy 1:1-2

    Unless Muslims want to claim that Moses and the Israelites traveled from Sinai all the way to Mecca and back during their 40-year desert wandering, it becomes quite evident that Paran is nowhere near Mecca.

    Continuing further:

    "Now Samuel died; and all Israel assembled and mourned for him. They buried him at his home in Ramah. Then David got up and went down to the wilderness of Paran." 1 Samuel 25:1

    Are we to assume that David went to Mecca after Samuel's death?

    Source: Sam Shamoun
     
  18. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Psalm 84 is about the Jews making a pilgrimage to Zion.

    Happy are the people whose strength is in You,
    whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
    they make it a source of springwater;
    even the autumn rain will cover it with blessings.G)" data-cr="#cen-HCSB-15266G" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">
    7 They go from strength to strength;
    each appears before God in Zion.

    Mount ZION is one of the hills on which Jersusalem is founded. In the Bible ZION is often used synonymously with JERUSALEM (Isaiah 2:2).
     
  19. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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  20. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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