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Mohammad in the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    Your source did not simply copy the Hebrew text and mis-transliterate it. If you enlarge the jpeg, you can see that he changed the tau in etmak to a he and the final kaf to a daleth. That kind of alteration could only be done deliberately.
     
  2. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    It maybe good that they don`t talk about it so much,
    sometimes you get the impression that you are talking to Deaths press secretary.
    anouncing who is to live and not live.
     
  3. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    There is no reason to believe Arabs did not hear the Gospel and were converted.

    I don't believe Muhammad was illiterate

    I am not a scholar of Greek. The information I gave you came from someone who teaches Greek at the graduate level. I had it confirmed by another person who teaches Hebrew and Greek. I don't rely solely on what some commentary might say. I check out Greek and Hebrew from those who teach the language.

    Judaism does not teach that Muhammad is referred to in Isaiah 42.

    When I first considered Islam, I studied the Qur'an and the Hadiths for years; I also studied Christianity and Judaism at the same time. I participated on Islamic discussion boards and was taught by Muslims.

    I read the articles of Answering-Christianity, Ahmed Deedat and branched out to others. I still read them. I found that none of what Muslims think are prophecies of Muhammad work when put into context.

    I started a thread "Was Muhammad the Prophet Like Moses?"
     
  4. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    no he waited her to mature then he married her
     
  5. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    our religion is a religion of peace..we are not seeking to die we are seeking to live a good life...no our religion doesn't push people to kill and to be killed...it pushes people to live a good life full of the pleasance of god
     
  6. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    You'd have a point if that were the only verse, but we'll come to that later.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 009, Book 087, Hadith Number 111.
    Narrated `Aisha:

    The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet (ﷺ) added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

    Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good reactions with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamityafflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin `Abdul `Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet (ﷺ) described whatever he had seen.

    Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet (ﷺ) became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn `Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).

    Hadith - Book of Interpretation of Dreams - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

    Points made:

    1 - It was an Angel not a demon
    2 - There was no foaming, snorting etc
    3 - Aisha ra says, she 'HEARD' from unknown person(s) Muhammad pbuh tried to kill himself.

    I wouldn't pay too much attention to hearsay.

    How does the Qur'an contradict the previous Scriptures? The Torah was the benchmark, not the NT. The rest of your post can be dealt with later.
     
  7. habibii zahra

    habibii zahra Well-Known Member

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    the spirit of god is the soul god that doesn't die that is why we believe that the Christ didn't die he was left to the sky near god
    some says that the spirit of god is the revelation of god to Mary to bring birth of a child without a father ..this is the meaning of the spirit of god
    the quran:
    "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him"
    "She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh, and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects."
    "And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Ruh [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel)], and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord [i.e. believed in the Words of Allah: "Be!" and he was; that is 'Iesa (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary); as a Messenger of Allah], and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah)."
    this is the spirit of God
    in the bible: first there was the word and it was with god
    in the bible: it was a word from ALLAH his name is Jesus son of mary
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  8. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    as salamu alaikum, I believe this is the Shia understanding.

    We know some reports say she was 19 when the marriage was consummated, however the majority consensus amongst Sunni Muslims who make up over 80% of Muslims is that she was 9 when the marriage was consummated, and this shouldn't be looked down upon as something to be ashamed of. The Bible shows puberty was the age girls usually married at, and that in some cases could start aged 7-12.

    It's only the past 100 years or so that people have taken a dim view of the Prophet's child bride, whilst ignoring this was the social norm in many Countries and cultures. Even today the age of consent in some Christian Countries ranges from 12-15.

    Perspective | Why can 12-year-olds still get married in the United States?

    In the 19th Century, yes 19th not 7th, America had set the age of consent in most states at 10 years of age, and as low as 7 in the State of Delaware. America is based on Biblical Laws and was very much a Christian Country.

    "Both Christian Canon Law and European Civil Law considered seven years as the age of consent, but Judges in Medieval England would approve marriages based on mutual consent as ages even lower than 7." Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society.

    Children and Youth in History | Age of Consent Laws [Table]

    People have to remember, History shows girls didn't have much of a life to look forward to, they didn't have schooling and jobs to attend. They learnt to look after the home from an early age, and it's only recent History that has really advanced their rights. Rights that Islam gave them 1,400 years ago at a time pagans were burying their daughters alive for fear of having to feed them.
     
  9. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I don't know if I can totally agree with that. There is tension in Israel with the making of a Independent state. The UN wanting to split Israel into 2 states Israel and palistine and the fact that the muslin have a place of worship on Israelite National temple site. At moment Muslims are fighting Muslims in Syria and Iraq. Arab muslins seem very upset.

    In the koran there seems 3 schools of thought That.
    Be at peace with all people
    Self defence.
    Kill the infidel

    And it does seem that they can jump quite easily from one position to another.
     
  10. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Jews and Muslims lived in peace in Spain until the Catholics gave them the choice to convert, leave, or die.


    Part of the deal in creating the State of Israel was also a Palestinian State.


    The word “Infidel” was invented by Christians, imagine that!
     
  11. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    So something like that isn't in the Khoran ???
    Honestly. It's like going around in circles
    1 muslin's says one thing and another says another.



    Yes My countries diplomats has recently been kicked out of Israel for voting against them.

    That wasn't very Christ like was it ?
    You will know them by the fruit they produce.
    It seems when religion and state get into bed with one another horrible things have happened.
     
  12. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    The Quran's Verses of Violence

    The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
     
  13. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    Please post the the first 5 verses on violence and be sure to include 3 verses before and after, so the context is fully understood. Bring the 5 bloodiest ones you can find. I'll supplement them with the Historical background and Hadiths, so we fully understand what was going on and why.
     
  14. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Don't mean offence but I'm not doing that. I've given you that site. Look at that. Not really sure about the authority or authenticity of the hadiths against the Koran.

    The Quran's Verses of Violence
    God bless
     
  15. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    Going by the numbering of your points:

    1 - According to al-Tabari, “The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons." Accordingly Muhammad suspected he himself might have been possessed and became suicidal. According to The History of al-Tabari, vol. 7, Muhammad said, “I recited it, and then he desisted and departed I woke up, and it was as though these words had been written on my heart. There was no one of God’s creation more hateful to me than a poet or a madman; I could not bear to look at either of them. I said to myself, Your humble servant (meaning himself) is either a poet or a madman, but Quraysh shall never say this of me. I shall take myself to a mountain crag, hurl myself down from it, kill myself, and find relief in that way." And according to Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, Muhammad thought, “Now none of God’s creatures was more hateful to me than a poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed.” By contrast, in the Bible there is not a single instance of a true prophet or apostle being concerned that he was demon-possessed or controlled by Satan. And no genuine prophet or apostle was ever duped like Muhammad was in the matter of the Satanic verses. Nor was there ever a case of an angel squeezing an illiterate man and incongruously telling him to read. Furthermore, an angel of God would not have conveyed revelations that contradicted previously-given revelations, for they are the touchstone for determining the truthfulness of any new revelations. Isaiah 8:20.

    2 - As for snorting, Sahih Muslim 1180a says: (It was at this juncture) that the revelation came to the Messenger of Allah and he was covered with a cloth, and Ya'la said: Would that I see revelation coming to the Messenger of Allah. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Would it please you to see the Messenger of Allah receiving the revelations 'Umar lifted a corner of the cloth and I looked at him and he was emitting a sound of snorting. He (the narrator) said: I thought it was the sound of a camel. (The Book of Pilgrimage - Sahih Muslim - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم))

    3 - If we should disregard hearsay, then we should disregard all the ahadith since they consist of nothing but hearsay—hearsay hundreds of years old before finally being collected. Also, according to Habibi Zahra in her previous thread, Bukhari is an unreliable source of hadith hearsay.

    The Quran contradicts the Holy Scriptures as we all know, and yet ironically, it confirms those same Holy Scriptures, both Jewish and Christian. So both “benchmarks” are recognized by the Quran.

    Let’s take a look just at surah number 2.
    Surah 2:87-89 teaches that a “Book from Allah confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians--i.e., the Book in their possession, the Scriptures that are theirs. In other words, the Bible.
    Surah 2:91 says the same thing again: “the truth confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians.
    Surah 2:97 says the Quran “confirms that which is before it,” i.e., the Quran confirms the Bible.
    Surah 2:101 says for a third time that the Quran “confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians.
    Surah 2:106 says Allah does not abrogate or cause anything to be forgotten at least until he brings a replacement for it.
    Surah 2:136 expects Muslims to believe “in what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets.”

    So putting it all together, surah 2 clearly teaches that the Quran confirms, reconfirms, and re-reconfirms the Bible that Jews and Christians possessed in the A.D. seventh century. If the Bible was corrupted, then the Quran confirmed a corrupted book. So the Bible, according to the Quran, must be true. Moreover, even if the Quran eventually replaced the Bible, the Quran says the Bible was preserved at least until the Quran replaced it. But Bible translations today are based on manuscripts that predate the seventh century; therefore, by implication, the Bible has been preserved until today according to the Quran itself. Furthermore, Muslims are to believe in what was Divinely revealed before the Quran. This also necessitates the preservation of those earlier revelations in an accessible and uncorrupt form, for no one can believe what is no longer available. Therefore the Bible, where earlier revelations are found, had to be preserved and not lost. And in addition to the Quran, both Muslim and Christian scholars also agree that the Bible has been preserved.
     
  16. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    This is why I always ask for Hadiths to be provided to verify these assertions:

    Ibn Ishaq, which means Son of Isaac was a revert to Islam and became a Scholar. He was amongst the first to write a Biography of the Prophet. His Grandfather was a Christian who was enslaved by the Muslims. Ishaq would take his information from groups hostile to Muslims, and his contemporaries say up to 70% of what he writes was unreliable. At one stage he was forced to leave Medina and moved to Iraq. He returned some years later and started work on the Biography of the Prophet. To his credit he does say he has used hearsay in various places:

    Characteristics

    The opinions of Muslim critics on Ibn Ishaq’s trustworthiness deserve a special paragraph; but here something may be said of the author’s caution and his fairness. A word that very frequently precedes a statement is za’ama or za’amu, ‘he (they) alleged’. It carries with it more than a hint that the statement may not be true, though on the other hand it may be sound. Thus there are fourteen or more occurrences of the caveat from p. 87 to 148 alone, besides a frequent note that only God knows whether a particular statement is true or not. Another indication of reserve if not scepticism underlies the expression fi ma dhukira li, as in the story of the jinn who listened to Muhammad as he prayed; Muhammad’s order to Umar to kill Suwayd; one of Gabriel’s visits to Muhammad; the reward of two martyrs to the man killed by a woman.

    Very seldom does Ibn Ishaq make any comment of his own on the traditions he records apart from the mental reservation implied in these terms. Therefore when he does express an opinion it is the more significant.

    Full text of "Ibn Ishaq Muhammad"

    You must have read this, yet choose not to mention it.

    Ibn Ishaq's original work was lost, and what survived was taken from his students. Al-Tabari recreated Ishaq's work as best he could. Imam Tabari has a disclaimer in his work which is as follows:

    “This book of mine may contain some information mentioned by me on the authority of certain men of the past, which the reader may disapprove of and the listener may find detestable, because he can find nothing sound and no real meaning in it. In such cases, he should know that it is not my fault that such information comes to him, but the fault of someone who transmitted it to me. I have merely reported it as it was reported to me.”

    Page 74. isbn:0521465540 - Google Search


    Western Scholar on Ibn Ishaq:
    "False ascription was rife among the 8th century scholars and that in any case Ibn Ishaq and contemporaries were drawing on oral traditions." (Cook, M: Muhammad, Oxford 1983. pg. 65)

    Even a famous anti-islamic scholar criticize the work of Ibn Ishaq

    The famous Polemist and anti-Islam author Robert Spencer admits in his book The Truth about Muhammad , that "However, Ibn Ishaq's life of Muhammad is so unashamedly hagiographical that its accuracy is questionable." (Spencer, Robert: The Truth about Muhammad, Regnery Publishers, 2006 pg. 25) Despite his negative opinion regarding Ibn Ishaq, out of the 400 footnotes of Robert Spencer's book, 120 footnote refer to fabricated stories from Ibn Ishaq's book. Because Robert Spencer hates Islam so much that he is willing to present these stories as if they are true, even though he knows that their source is unreliable.

    The Hadith in full:
    Ya'la b. Umayya reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with them) that a person came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as he was at Ji'rana and he (the person) had been putting on a cloak which was perfumed, or he (the narrator) said:

    There was a trace of yellowness on it. He said (to the Holy Prophet): What do you command me to do during my Umra? (It was at this juncture) that the revelation came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he was covered with a cloth, and Ya'la said: Would that I see revelation coming to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Would it please you to see the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) receiving the revelations 'Umar lifted a corner of the cloth and I looked at him and he was emitting a sound of snorting. He (the narrator) said: I thought it was the sound of a camel. When he was relieved of this he said: Where is he who asked about Umra? When the person came, the Prophet (ﷺ) said: Wash out the trace of yellowness, or he said: the trace of perfume and put off the cloak and do in your 'Umra what you do in your Hajj.

    Elsewhere we read;

    Narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that al-Haarith ibn Hishaam (may Allaah be pleased with him) asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “O Messenger of Allaah, how does the Revelation come to you?” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Sometimes it comes to me like the ringing of a bell, which is the hardest of all, then it passes once I have grasped what is said. And sometimes the angel comes to me in the form of a man and speaks to me, and I grasp what he says…” 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over) (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2). source >> Hadith - Book of Revelation - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

    Biblical Prophets on receiving divine commandments:

    Ezekiel 3:
    10 Moreover He said to me: “Son of man, receive into your heart all My words that I speak to you, and hear with your ears. 11 And go, get to the captives, to the children of your people, and speak to them and tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ whether they hear, or whether they refuse.”

    12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me a great thunderous voice: “Blessed is the glory of the Lord from His place!” 13 I also heard the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels beside them, and a great thunderous noise. 14 So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me. 15 Then I came to the captives at Tel Abib, who dwelt by the River Chebar; and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

    22 And the hand of the Lord was upon me there. And he said to me, “Arise, go out into the valley, and there I will speak with you.” 23 So I arose and went out into the valley, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory that I had seen by the Chebar canal, and I fell on my face. 24 But the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and he spoke with me and said to me, “Go, shut yourself within your house. 25 And you, O son of man, behold, cords will be placed upon you, and you shall be bound with them, so that you cannot go out among the people. 26 And I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and unable to reprove them, for they are a rebellious house. 27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who will hear, let him hear; and he who will refuse to hear, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious house.

    We are told of Angel Gabriel ra visiting Daniel ra, he was so scared, he fell on his face. When he got back up, Gabriel ra spoke to him and he passed out! Gabriel had to hold his up. Daniel 8:16-18

    After the visit Daniel ra was sick for DAYS and left appalled by his encounter. Verse 27.

    And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. — Luke 1:18-20

    What happened when Jonah ra was chosen by God directly to be His prophet? He ran for his life, even allowing himself to be thrown overboard into the sea to escape his appointed task.

    Clearly receiving revelation from GOD is a physically and emotionally draining experience, one that takes time adjusting to.

    She belongs to the Shia sect of Islam, and they have a different criteria for what they accept. That is an issue for them, and I follow the majority consensus of mainstream Sunni Scholars. Does your opinion represent that of all Christians?

    Ok let's look at the context starting from verse 75:

    75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

    76: And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed"; but when they are alone with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you so they can argue with you about it before your Lord?" Then will you not reason?

    77: But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare?

    78: And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

    79: So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

    80: And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
    81: Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

    82: But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.

    83: And [recall] when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, [enjoining upon them], "Do not worship except Allah ; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good [words] and establish prayer and give zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.

    84: And [recall] when We took your covenant, [saying], "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged [this] while you were witnessing.

    85: Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

    86: Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world [in exchange] for the Hereafter, so the punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be aided.

    87: And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

    88: And they said, "Our hearts are wrapped." But, [in fact], Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is it that they believe.

    89: And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

    90: How wretched is that for which they sold themselves - that they would disbelieve in what Allah has revealed through [their] outrage that Allah would send down His favor upon whom He wills from among His servants. So they returned having [earned] wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.

    91: And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"

    92: And Moses had certainly brought you clear proofs. Then you took the calf [in worship] after that, while you were wrongdoers.

    93: And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers."


    We learn, they changed things with their hand, with most of them turned away in disobedience, choosing to sell their souls for some worldly gain through disbelief, (may Allah swt have mercy on their souls).

    Even when Moses and Jesus pbut came, the Israelites harboured disbelief and rebellion. Verse 89 makes clear they used to pray asking for their expected Prophet to come forward, and when the Qur'an came to confirm what they had previously, they turned their backs on Allah swt.

    Outside of the Qur'an t
    he Israelites knew they had issues with their scripture;

    Jeremiah 8:8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law (Torah) of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Brackets mine.

    Fulfilment of Prophecy perhaps;

    "27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death? 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29 For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, *provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” Deuteronomy 31:27-29


    Back then they were arrogant, thinking they had an eternal covenant. When the Prophet first started preaching, he would pray like the Jews, face Jerusalem, fast on their days, observe Sabbath etc. He did everything to show them, they had nothing to fear.

    Jeremiah 51:33 Arabia has not yet met its threshold, and the time of her harvest shall come.

    Jeremiah 31:31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make
    a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

    Isaiah 41:8-13: GOD Almighty
    assures the House of Jacob that they are still loved and chosen by GOD Almighty. “Do not be afraid (of this Servant).” Never was this said to an Israelite Prophet. THE ENTIRE HOUSE OF JACOB were commanded to not be afraid of him, because he will be a NON-ISRAELITE Prophet.

    However they realised the seriousness of the situation when, the Prophet pbuh was commanded to change direction of prayer to the Kaaba, that's when the rug was pulled from under their feet, and Islam became a distinct separate Religion.

    Surely given the above, you don't need me to address the other verses?


    I hope in light of the context given, you no longer cling to this. You ca of course maintain Christian Scholars hold to Bible preservation, and that's a matter for another discussion.

    No Muslim Scholar can argue with the Qur'an;

    The following verse even contains a Prophecy:

    But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Quran 5:13-14)
     
  17. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    At first you stated that Muhammad did not snort when receiving revelation. I then quoted from a hadith that said he snorted like a camel. Then you quoted the same hadith in full, confirming what I wrote. Odd.

    I pointed out that no genuine prophets ever thought they were possessed or could not distinguish between a good angel and Satan. And no true prophet ever tried to commit self-murder because he thought he was possessed. In response you listed several Bible verses that in no way disagree with the point I made. True messengers of God recognize that Satan can disguise himself as a angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and they were never tricked like Muhammad was said to be, as in the embarrassing matter of the Satanic verses (the criterion of embarrassment).

    The broader point regarding Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, etc. is that all are alike based on hearsay. If the early biographies are questionable because they consist of hearsay, then so are the ahadith. You yourself said we should not listen to hearsay. But Islam = Quran + ahadith (hearsay). Therefore in your own words, you should disregard half of Islam. So if you intend to remain in Islam, you should be a Quran-only Muslim, according to your own criterion of truth.

    Your extended quotation from surah 2 was helpful, particularly as 2:75 alleges only that an unspecified, finite “party” used to hear the words of Allah and then distort them. This confirms my earlier point that, assuming 2:75ff is factual, the distortion was limited and did not affect all the Bibles in the world—just as your earlier jpeg (post #111) deliberately distorted Isaiah 42 but without affecting all Bibles worldwide. Moreover, if you look at the Arabic literally (run your cursor over the Arabic of 2:75 at quran.com), you will see that the word “Torah” is missing and was deliberately ADDED to the ayah in the main English translation. The verse itself does not specify what was distorted or how. As I said before, the surah only says some people wrote some false things. It is akin to Jeremiah 8:8, which likewise does not say that the Holy Scriptures worldwide were affected by “the lying pen of the scribes.” Jeremiah 8:8 says only that some scribes wrote some false things. Evidently they tried to justify their false teachings by implying they had Scriptural warrant for them. Heretics have always done so. But God’s purpose in giving the Jewish and Christian Scriptures for the guidance of mankind (as surah 3:3-4 admits) is not so easily thwarted. More on that below. As I said in HZ’s earlier thread, God is faithful and has preserved the Bible. There is no evidence that Christians ever deliberately forged words in Scripture like your jpeg did. I can go over the issue of God’s faithfulness again, if necessary. Calling attention to God’s faithfulness can be a form of praise, the subject of new songs.

    On the Bible verses you listed, “The work of your hands” in Deuteronomy 31:29 is a common phrase in the Bible for idols — Psalm 115:4; Isaiah 37:19; Jeremiah 25:6.
    Jeremiah 51:33 does not mention “Arabia” but rather “the daughter of Babylon,” an Aramaic-speaking people.
    The new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah is fulfilled in the Messiah (Mark 14:24).
    Isaiah 41:8-13 does not mention a “non-Israelite.”

    The fact that surah 2 confirms the Bible remains. Abdullah Saeed, Sultan of Oman professor of Arab and Islamic Studies at the University of Melbourne, says, ”The Qur’an revealed to the Prophet Muhammad is said to ‘confirm what is with them.’ Obviously, this refers to a text that existed with the Jewish or Christian communities at the time of the Prophet. The People of the Book are described as reciting ‘verses of Allah.’ Many verses in the Qur’an refer to the People of the Book as ones to whom God ‘gave the Book,’ and who are asked ‘to establish Tawrat and Injīl.’ The Jews at the time of the Prophet are readers of the scripture as are the Christians.” And, “In no verse in the Qur’an is there a denigrating remark about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Instead, there is respect and reverence…These and many other verses which similarly revere the “Book of God” (Tawrat or Injīl), as given to Jews and Christians, led scholars like Ibn Taymiyya to consider unwarranted the wholesale rejection by Muslims of the Christian and Jewish scriptures.” Quoted from Saeed’s 2002 article, The Charge of Distortion of Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Abstract The Charge of Distortion of Jewish and Christian Scriptures | abdullahsaeed.org Full article http://quranandinjil.org/sites/defa...h-and-Christian-Scriptures_Abdullah Saeed.pdf

    Surah 5 goes on, after the verses you quoted, to confirm the Bible even more strongly. But first let’s look at surah 3.
    Surah 3:3-4 says the Bible was revealed “as guidance for mankind.” Not just for the Jews of one generation, but for mankind. Christians agree. Accordingly, the Bible has been disseminated worldwide and translated for mankind worldwide. Pentecost in Acts 2 shows that all languages are suitable for praising God in (Acts 2:11), the implication being that the Gospel and the New Covenant are for people of all languages, “all flesh” (Joel 2:38), in other words, “for mankind” and not merely for a particular ethnicity.
    Surah 3:84 reiterates what we saw in surah 2. Muslims are expected to believe what was revealed before the Quran, which implies that what was revealed before the Quran never perished but was still intact and available to be believed in.
    In surah 3:55 and 61:14, the Quran teaches that God supported the believing Christians and that they became superior and dominant over the unbelieving Jews. But historically, the only Christians who “became dominant” were those who affirmed the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and our Lord’s death and resurrection and who also affirmed the Bible as we have it today. According to Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s commentary on 61:14 Surah As-Saf [61:14-24], “those who followed Jesus permeated the Roman Empire, brought many new races within their circle, and through the Roman Empire, Christianity became the predominant religion of the world.” As-Saff, Verse 14 - Al-Quran (Yusuf Ali English Translation) - Islamhelpline
     
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  18. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member

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    I quoted it in full, so people could see your derogatory comments were misplaced.

    I showed Muhammad pbuh understood it was an Angel from GOD. Where did he think he was possessed or tried to kill himself? Are you referring to hearsay?
    He was shocked and scared, just like the Biblical Prophets I mentioned. Recall Jonah pbuh rather be thrown into the sea, (self-murder) as you termed it.

    Being Commanded by GOD is a frightening experience, and takes time to adjust to.

    Chains of narration is what Muslims rely on to see if Hadiths are reliable, this covers the character of the transmitter, whether they had good memory, is it passed down through multiple chains etc. Western Scholars who have taken the time and trouble to look into it say it is phenomenal, with Muslims Scholars able to recite 10's of Thousands of Hadiths through memory alone, and give multiple chains, as well as cross reference with the Qur'an.

    Please go back to the original post containing the Jpeg and read what I wrote regarding the translated Hebrew word for 'truth' eh'-meth in post 143 under the video.

    This is your understanding of Jeremiah 8:8 You acknowledge Qur'an is saying people 'wrote' false things. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say they corrected what they wrote and the Scribes have the Scriptures as they were revealed. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown there were several Torahs and some communities would read 2 side by side. The Samaritan Torah differs in some 3,000 places to the Masoretic reading. There's evidence of Prophecy being added after the event etc, and that still means a gap of 1070 years of no written Torah between the death of Moses pbuh and the DSS.

    The Jpeg wasn't alleging forgery, it used the word mistranslated, see the post under the vid for what is a reasonable argument.

    I can't believe you think the NT has no forgeries in it :/

    Who wrote 2 Peter?
    Who wrote the book of Hebrews?
    How many Letters is 2 Corinthians made up of?
    How many of Paul's letters are originals?
    Who wrote the Gospels?
    Why did Church dispute over the following books: Revelations, Hebrews, Philemon, and the Catholic Epistles (I and II Peter, I and II and III John, and Jude)

    You know Matthew and Luke used Mark as a template and improved and added to it don't you? Mark finishes 16:8 in the oldest complete Gospel of Mark that you have, found in the Codex Sinaiticus codex-sinaiticus.net/en/manuscript.aspx?book=36&chapter=14&lid=en&side=r&verse=26&zoomSlider=0 <<Go to the link and just have a look for yourself, also look at Mark 1:1 and tell me who added the extra words found in the Bible that you use? Open the KJV and explain why 1 John 5:7 is there? I have another dozen or so examples I could give before showing you a Bible that differs with more than 3,000 words not found in modern Bibles.

    Look at the following improvements Matthew makes on Mark's template:

    1) Mark's Gospel 6:5-6 "And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

    Matthew 13:58 "And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief."

    2) Mark 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

    Matthew 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

    3) Mark 5:30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, “Who touched my garments?

    Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.

    Mark portrays Jesus pbuh as a Prophet, who God is doing wonders and miracles through.
    Matthew improves the image of Jesus pbuh to someone who is more knowing, more powerful.

    Why is Jesus pbuh evolving in power and status? Obviously by the time we get to Gospel of John, he's getting right up there with the Angels! Calling upon God's faithfulness can't explain why the Bible is not preserved.

    That's fair enough, but it's quite the coincidence that Scribes admit to using their hands to falsify the Torah.

    Arabia is also referred to as the daughter of Babylon;

    The Bible speaks about the fall of three Babylons:

    1- Babylon (the Assyrian one). It fell to Islam.

    2- The VIRGIN DAUGHTER of Babylon (pagan Arabia). It was a virgin because it had no official Divine Religion like Islam yet. It fell to Islam. This is the time when it began to meet its threshold.

    3- Future Babylon, THE GREAT HARLOT. It will fall to Islam after the return of Prophet Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him.

    There's plenty of evidence showing no one was crucified, so I doubt very much that Jesus pbuh made mention of a blood covenant.



    Read from verse 1, GOD will stir up one from the 'East' - this is usually a foreigner. GOD is with his people, so don't fear him as he puts kings under his feet.

    Before coming back to address this, please show me a Torah from the 7th Century.

    If you can't do that then, as you are appealing to the Qur'an to show Bible is uncorrupted, please read the following verse...

    "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel with them. He enjoins upon them that which is right and forbids for them that which is evil. He makes lawful for them all things that are good and prohibits for them all that is foul and he relieves them from their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, honor him, assist him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful" Qur'an 7:157

    Show me where I can find him.

    Not sure what Qur'an translation you are reading, but at best it was a guidance for a previous people at a past time.

    Just one verse on refutes you...

    And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85

    From the 4th Century onwards the Doctrine of Trinity was the only acceptable form of Christianity allowed by the Church. The Monotheists then struggled against the Pagan Church until Islam came some 300 years later, those who reverted to Islam were indeed successful as Islam swept through the Middle East, North Africa and then much of Europe.

    Today the largest group of pure Monotheists are the Muslims followed by Jews. Christian as you know say, Three and the Qur'an condemns this as idolatry of the worst kind.
     
  19. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

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    I am always fascinated that why Muslims (Bahai's excluded) claim Bible is corrupt/lost etc. I could understand why atheist scholars does that, but when Quran so clearly confirms Bible.....
    Adding to Mediavel said, here are part of Quan that confirms Bible is good to use and good to clear doubts for Muhammad:
    Quran 5:47 Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein....
    Surah 10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

    And here is what Quran says about corruption among Christians, that they should not claim the trinity is Mary/Jesus/God:
    sura 5:116And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
     
  20. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Each of the Gospels has its own emphasis on the ministry of Christ. Matthew, writing to a Jewish audience, emphasizes Jesus’ fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, proving that He is the long-awaited Messiah. Mark writes a fast-paced, condensed account, recording Jesus’ miraculous deeds and not recording His long discourses. Luke portrays Jesus as the remedy of the world’s ills, emphasizing His perfect humanity and humane concern for the weak, the suffering, and the outcast. John emphasizes Jesus’ deity by selecting many conversations and sayings of Jesus on the subject and also including “signs” that prove He is the Son of God. John was loved of Jesus and understood Jesus the most spiritually.

    The Four Gospels work together to provide a complete testimony of Jesus, a beautiful portrait of the God-Man. Although the Gospels differ slightly in theme, the central Subject is the same. All present Jesus as the One who died to save sinners. All record His resurrection. Whether the writers presented Jesus as the King, the Servant, the Son of Man, or the Son of God, they had the common goal—that people believe in Him.

    I not really sure if the examples your writing a fact on not ?
    But when there is 4 accounts written like that. There unmistakable themes that give you not doubt about the important things of the christian faith.
    And most if not all ancient translated documents have had vocabulary editing in different translations. But I don't even have to go into that too deeply personally because I have certainty on the important things.
     
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