Modesty for men and women

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RedPonyDriver

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Do you never discuss subjective matters with anyone? I am providing my position on modesty based on my readings and experiences. You are free to disagree with that as you are free to disagree with anyone when it comes to their interpretations.

Your screed is not something I would discuss with anyone except my husband. HE's the one who would REMOTELY have any say. However, considering he doesn't much give a hoot about what I do, what I wear, what I watch, etc. YOU have no say at all in it and do not have the right to come on a message board and disparage others. Great, you have certain ideas...the only ones you should concern yourself with regarding these ideas are you, your wife and children. I "answer" to only two people, my husband and my Lord.
 
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tstor

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Your screed is not something I would discuss with anyone except my husband. HE's the one who would REMOTELY have any say. However, considering he doesn't much give a hoot about what I do, what I wear, what I watch, etc. YOU have no say at all in it and do not have the right to come on a message board and disparage others. Great, you have certain ideas...the only ones you should concern yourself with regarding these ideas are you, your wife and children. I "answer" to only two people, my husband and my Lord.
I believe I do have the right to express my views on this topic, as I already have. Plenty of early churchmen did the same thing. So while I respect your perspective on the matter, I find it wanting and therefore reject it.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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So while I respect your perspective on the matter, I find it wanting and therefore reject it.

I don't even respect your view. It reeks of misogyny and a lack of understanding except on a very superficial level. I reject that view completely.

I was right, you are very young. When one is young, one has some pie in the sky points of view. Once you get a few years of living under your belt, you figure out that reality is MUCH different. So, while you "reject" my pov, you are young. You have next to no real world experience, whether it be educational, professional or relational. So, your subjective ideas are colored by your lack of real world experience and therefore can be totally rejected by anyone with many more years. I have about 35 years of life on you.
 
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tstor

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I don't even respect your view. It reeks of misogyny and a lack of understanding except on a very superficial level. I reject that view completely.
Just noticed your label says "Professional Pot Stirrer." I wish I had caught that earlier.
 
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Sam91

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Just noticed your label says "Professional Pot Stirrer." I wish I had caught that earlier.

I noticed your label. It's what reminded me of the Proverb I shared. > . <
 
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RedPonyDriver

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I noticed your label. It's what reminded me of the Proverb I shared. > . <

And you're not even close! "Professional pot stirrer" means that occasionally (well, most of the time) I will be contrary...for many reasons. Sometimes to attempt to get people to really think about what they're saying, sometimes just to be contrary, other times to point out illogic. I'm an engineer and an engineering professor. It's the same tactic I use on my students to get them to THINK things through to a logical conclusion.
 
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Sam91

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And you're not even close! "Professional pot stirrer" means that occasionally (well, most of the time) I will be contrary...for many reasons. Sometimes to attempt to get people to really think about what they're saying, sometimes just to be contrary, other times to point out illogic. I'm an engineer and an engineering professor. It's the same tactic I use on my students to get them to THINK things through to a logical conclusion.
Think you misquoted me by accident. I was talking to tstor. x
 
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noam burde

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For this discussion, I will be utilizing several Bible passages. I will go ahead and produce them below:

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. (1 Timothy 2:8-15; ESV)​

Women should "adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works." What does this look like? What would a respectable, modest, and self-controlled woman look like? The reality is that modesty is a bit more than just looks. I will simply address looks first and then work through the other aspects of modesty. A modest woman is one who does not leave room for men to be tempted into sin by dressing revealingly. A modest woman is someone who does not dress to bring attention to herself. Modesty can be achieved by a woman concealing her body shape with loose fitting clothes. A modest woman will not manipulate her signs of age in order to be found more visually appealing to men. For example, a modest woman should not dye her hair, wear excessive makeup, or commit to cosmetic surgeries.

"Neither is the hair to be dyed, nor gray hair to have it’s color changed [...] Old age, which conciliates trust, is not to be concealed." - Clement of Alexandria

Yet these things also apply to men. Men likewise should be careful not to dress immodestly. A modest man will wear loose-fitting clothes and not clothes that reveal the shape of the body. Modest men will not dress so as to draw attention to themselves. Modest men will not try to conceal their age with dyed hair or cosmetic surgery.

You will also note that the passage says women should not have "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire." I believe this is more than likely in reference to fashion trends at the time Paul wrote this letter and not necessarily a hard and fast rule for women of all eras. But that does not mean we cannot extract any meaning from this section. What we can gather from it is that women should not attempt to display their wealth in the form of jewelry or other designer apparel. I believe that the this can and should be applied to men as well. Men should not wear their wealth in the forms of jewelry. An example of something like this would be a Rolex wristwatch.

Regarding the braided hair, I believe that this is in reference to time-consuming fixations with hair. Or even costly and timely hair procedures at a salon. Women should not spend too much time trying to fix their hair and neither should men. We, both men and women, should not become consumed with the tendency to try and make our hair perfect. Do we not have more valuable things to spend our time on?

"If it is true, as it is, that in men, for the sake of women (just as in women for the sake of men), there is implanted, by a defect of nature, the will to please; and if this sex of ours acknowledges to itself deceptive trickeries of form peculiarly its own—such as to cut the beard too sharply; to pluck it out here and there; to shave round about the mouth; to arrange the hair, and disguise its hoariness by dyes; to remove all the incipient down all over the body; to fix each particular hair in its place with some womanly pigment [...] all these things are rejected as frivolous, as hostile to modesty." - Tertullian

Modesty is not limited to just physical expressions (i.e., clothing, hair, makeup, etc.) but also mindsets and practices. I briefly touched on an immodest mindset with the example of time spent on hair. It is immodest to be consumed with the image of yourself. Whether this is hair, clothing, or something else. Our minds should not be overly occupied with our physical appearance, as our mind is to be occupied with the Lord. We are supposed to be humble, as Christ was. Christ is the perfect example of humility. He did not occupy His time considering Himself. Rather, He occupied His time with the problems of others. We should aim to be no different.

Nor is modesty limited to only mindsets regarding physical expressions. Paul goes on to say that a woman is to "learn quietly with all submissiveness. A woman is not permitted to "teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." This is the way of a modest woman. A modest woman knows her role in the hierarchy of social order. An immodest woman would seek to undermine this order that is established by God in order to advance herself. In other words, an immodest woman is not humble.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; ESV)​

This passage applies to both men and women. If a Christian man or woman dresses so as to bring attention to themselves for ungodly reasons then they are not glorifying God in their body.

Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16; ESV)​

Again, we see the Scriptures reiterate the hierarchy of man being the head of woman. It is made plainly obvious through this passage that in Corinth they had a cultural tradition of women covering their heads to show submissiveness to the men. If a woman rejects this sign of submissiveness for the sake of self-gain, she should shave her head as it would be equally as shameful. Woman was created for man and it was not the other way around. Hence, she is to be submissive. However, we should not neglect the fact that men also have responsibilities in the relationship. Though I do not believe those responsibilities necessarily fall into the discussion of modesty. Modest women will respect their position as below men and submissive to men. They will remain humble and not seek to disturb the God-given order of things.

Regarding what Paul said about hair length, men should not grow long hair as there is no purpose in it. Women keep long hair to cover the pleasantness of their faces and the beauty that draws attention to them. This is not the case for men.

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. (1 Peter 3:1-7; ESV)​

And, again, we are told of the hierarchy. Women are to be subject to men. Though it is in this passage that we see the true intention and reason behind modesty:

Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.
Women are supposed to be humble in their relation to men. They are to respect man's God-given authority over them. Regarding physical modesty, the woman is to do this because the beauty of her spirit is so much more precious than that of external beauty. Submitting to a man and humbling oneself becomes easier when the man came to you for the preciousness of your spirit and not for the external signs that disappear in the grave. The external signs fade with age. And if the man came to you to honor your external shell, then how can that honor last?

the problem here is that instead of relaying on the words of Jesus and the prophets before him. you relay on those that preach in the new testament, after Jesus. which were false teachers and false prophets. on this subject, as in other cases they contradict Gods teachings.
Jesus consistently treated woman as a person. with her own faith according to who she is. not according to her husband or father.
for example:
The Faith of the Canaanite Woman(Mark 7:24-30)

21Then Jesus went there, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried to him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, you son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and sought him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith: be it to you even as you will. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Poor Widow's Offering (Luke 21:1-4)

[21:1] As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. [2] He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. [3] "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. [4] All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

he also warned us that false teachers and prophets will come after him.
Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Why by their fruits you shall know them.
21Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

also luke 20:45-47 against acts 20:7-9
[45] While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, [46] "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. [47] They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

acts 20:7-9
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. 9And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.
 
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tstor

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the problem here is that instead of relaying on the words of Jesus and the prophets before him. you relay on those that preach in the new testament, after Jesus. which were false teachers and false prophets. on this subject, as in other cases they contradict Gods teachings.
While I appreciate your post, I am really not trying to the discuss the authority of Paul. My post is based on the assumption that Paul's words are God-breathed.
 
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and clear things get muddled when they don't match yours..

Thus where we apparently differ. While I disagree with your interpretation, I would never accuse you of "muddled" thinking.


when we look at ephesians 5:21 through 6:29 as well as colossians 3:18-25 we realize the LORD was not doing away with gender/class distinctions or authority but was simply saying that all who are in Christ have equal value as human beings.

That is your interpretation. You are, of course, entitled to your interpretation, but it is no more correct than my interpretation.
'
 
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SnowyMacie

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I used to be all for dictating modesty, and then I started to think about the rationale and reasoning behind dictating modesty and actually studying what other people think, do and the reasons behind it. I found out that dictating modesty doesn't work for three main reasons.

First, when it comes to revealing clothing, it's actually quite objectifying for both men and women, especially when modesty is about how much or how little skin covering a person is wearing. Whether or not we intend to mean this or not, when we say to women and girls not wear thinks that could provoke lust in men, it says two things 1) The female body is a sexual object and 2) Men are uncontrollable sex fiends who ultimately aren't responsible for their thoughts, feelings, and urges. Likewise, when we say that men should be modest in dress as well it says that their bodies are sexual objects and that women ultimately aren't responsible for their own thoughts, feelings, and urges. It still often gives into the very wrong idea that men are sexual beings and women are sexual objects of desire to men, and kind dress and get pretty for guys. In my opinion, that kind of thinking is screwed up and sexist towards both men and women. Both men and women are sexual beings and have sexual urges, and have thoughts and feelings about the other sex upon seeing them. However, this idea of modesty surrounding revealing clothing, which is often just one-sided towards women, but when it is both, it still says that the other person is responsibly for your thoughts, feelings, and urges. That is exactly the mentality that promotes the idea that victims of rape "provoked" the rapist, and the same mentality over nudity as the inappropriate content industry: nudity is inherently sexual and our bodies are objects.

The other problem with modesty is that it assumes that men and women dress for other people when that is simply not the case. Sure, there are times like job interviews, dates, weddings, and other special occasions where we do and should strive to look our best and make a good impression, but most of the time most people dress for themselves. They dress to express themselves, dress because the shirt, pants, whatever is comfortable. Almost every woman I've ever heard talk about this issue say that they do not wear revealing clothing for the attention, in fact they don't even like the attention, they wear whatever it is because they personally like wearing it, it looks cute, it's comfortable, cool, whatever reason. It is not because they are trying to get attention for guys.

The last problem with coming up for a universal law of modesty is that fashion changes and different cultures have different norms. You use the example of died hair, it used to be that women really only died their hair natural colors, and the ones that did not really stood out. However, so many women in my area have unnatural highlights or even blue or pink hair, and work in professional jobs that I don't even really think about it anymore. If you go to Europe, it's perfectly normal in some places to go to the beach in public perfectly nude, nobody has any issues with it being immodest. What's considered to be flaunting wealth is going to look differently in middle-class suburban Chicago than in the upper-class neighborhoods of New York or cities of Southern California.

That is ultimately why Paul and scripture's definition of modesty is vague. There's no universal cultural norms about what's provocative, flaunting wealth, showing off your looks, etc. Modesty certainly has a value and a place, but it's not something that can be universally dictated. What looks like modesty for my own culture and subculture is going to be different than yours, an Australians, a Russian, a Japanese person, etc.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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It is not because they are trying to get attention for guys.

I met my husband while wearing a work shirt, reflective vest, jeans, hard hat and steel-toed boots (I was onsite at a construction site). He asked me out while I was standing there with mud on my boots and jeans, messy, sweaty hair, and generally looking like what the cat dragged in. Didn't stop him from thinking I was attractive. I DEFINITELY wasn't "flaunting" anything...and was thinking about how soon I could get home and take a shower. So...the theory that men go gaga when women are wearing revealing clothing is shot right there.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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the problem here is that instead of relaying on the words of Jesus and the prophets before him. you relay on those that preach in the new testament, after Jesus. which were false teachers and false prophets. on this subject, as in other cases they contradict Gods teachings.
Jesus consistently treated woman as a person. with her own faith according to who she is. not according to her husband or father.
for example:
The Faith of the Canaanite Woman(Mark 7:24-30)

21Then Jesus went there, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried to him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, you son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and sought him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith: be it to you even as you will. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Poor Widow's Offering (Luke 21:1-4)

[21:1] As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. [2] He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. [3] "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. [4] All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

he also warned us that false teachers and prophets will come after him.
Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Why by their fruits you shall know them.
21Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

also luke 20:45-47 against acts 20:7-9
[45] While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, [46] "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. [47] They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

acts 20:7-9
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. 9And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.

New Testament written by false prophets........? Hmmm...if anyone needs wisdom to understand why they wrote what they wrote, then ask God to give you His wisdom on it. His truth does not usually make sense to the carnal mind....but that is presumptuous and dangerous to just throw it out because we have not wisdom to understand it. This teaching does not make women inferior, it makes us protected and cared for.......for our good and the good of the whole church.........because the spirit of Jezebel leads to wrack and ruin. We must understand and hold truth in spirit though, not in flesh of carnal mind, otherwise it can easily go askew, like with anything in His word.
 
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frienden thalord

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I bet all would claim to agree with pual as being a man of GOD
as being a good instructor over the peoples.
he instructed the church how to live .
he said , that any deacon or bishop
even young men , even ladies and wives
even all, should be......now notice this word
because I don't see it at all anymore .
I mean very few have it .
GRAVE , SERIOUS.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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They dress to express themselves
HARD to argue with that point , they dress to express SELF

EVERYONE dresses to express themselves. Your choice of fabrics, prints, styles are your own tastes and preferences. What you like isn't necessarily what I like. If not, we'd all just go to a uniform store, go pick out an outfit that sort of fits and go on. Kind of like Mao in China years ago where everyone dressed pretty much alike.

See how illogical that is?
 
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RedPonyDriver

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This teaching does not make women inferior, it makes us protected and cared for.......for our good and the good of the whole church.

Saying that women need to be "protected and cared for" implies that women are somehow inferior.
 
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