Modesty for men and women

Status
Not open for further replies.

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
For this discussion, I will be utilizing several Bible passages. I will go ahead and produce them below:

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. (1 Timothy 2:8-15; ESV)​

Women should "adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works." What does this look like? What would a respectable, modest, and self-controlled woman look like? The reality is that modesty is a bit more than just looks. I will simply address looks first and then work through the other aspects of modesty. A modest woman is one who does not leave room for men to be tempted into sin by dressing revealingly. A modest woman is someone who does not dress to bring attention to herself. Modesty can be achieved by a woman concealing her body shape with loose fitting clothes. A modest woman will not manipulate her signs of age in order to be found more visually appealing to men. For example, a modest woman should not dye her hair, wear excessive makeup, or commit to cosmetic surgeries.

"Neither is the hair to be dyed, nor gray hair to have it’s color changed [...] Old age, which conciliates trust, is not to be concealed." - Clement of Alexandria

Yet these things also apply to men. Men likewise should be careful not to dress immodestly. A modest man will wear loose-fitting clothes and not clothes that reveal the shape of the body. Modest men will not dress so as to draw attention to themselves. Modest men will not try to conceal their age with dyed hair or cosmetic surgery.

You will also note that the passage says women should not have "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire." I believe this is more than likely in reference to fashion trends at the time Paul wrote this letter and not necessarily a hard and fast rule for women of all eras. But that does not mean we cannot extract any meaning from this section. What we can gather from it is that women should not attempt to display their wealth in the form of jewelry or other designer apparel. I believe that the this can and should be applied to men as well. Men should not wear their wealth in the forms of jewelry. An example of something like this would be a Rolex wristwatch.

Regarding the braided hair, I believe that this is in reference to time-consuming fixations with hair. Or even costly and timely hair procedures at a salon. Women should not spend too much time trying to fix their hair and neither should men. We, both men and women, should not become consumed with the tendency to try and make our hair perfect. Do we not have more valuable things to spend our time on?

"If it is true, as it is, that in men, for the sake of women (just as in women for the sake of men), there is implanted, by a defect of nature, the will to please; and if this sex of ours acknowledges to itself deceptive trickeries of form peculiarly its own—such as to cut the beard too sharply; to pluck it out here and there; to shave round about the mouth; to arrange the hair, and disguise its hoariness by dyes; to remove all the incipient down all over the body; to fix each particular hair in its place with some womanly pigment [...] all these things are rejected as frivolous, as hostile to modesty." - Tertullian

Modesty is not limited to just physical expressions (i.e., clothing, hair, makeup, etc.) but also mindsets and practices. I briefly touched on an immodest mindset with the example of time spent on hair. It is immodest to be consumed with the image of yourself. Whether this is hair, clothing, or something else. Our minds should not be overly occupied with our physical appearance, as our mind is to be occupied with the Lord. We are supposed to be humble, as Christ was. Christ is the perfect example of humility. He did not occupy His time considering Himself. Rather, He occupied His time with the problems of others. We should aim to be no different.

Nor is modesty limited to only mindsets regarding physical expressions. Paul goes on to say that a woman is to "learn quietly with all submissiveness. A woman is not permitted to "teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." This is the way of a modest woman. A modest woman knows her role in the hierarchy of social order. An immodest woman would seek to undermine this order that is established by God in order to advance herself. In other words, an immodest woman is not humble.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; ESV)​

This passage applies to both men and women. If a Christian man or woman dresses so as to bring attention to themselves for ungodly reasons then they are not glorifying God in their body.

Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16; ESV)​

Again, we see the Scriptures reiterate the hierarchy of man being the head of woman. It is made plainly obvious through this passage that in Corinth they had a cultural tradition of women covering their heads to show submissiveness to the men. If a woman rejects this sign of submissiveness for the sake of self-gain, she should shave her head as it would be equally as shameful. Woman was created for man and it was not the other way around. Hence, she is to be submissive. However, we should not neglect the fact that men also have responsibilities in the relationship. Though I do not believe those responsibilities necessarily fall into the discussion of modesty. Modest women will respect their position as below men and submissive to men. They will remain humble and not seek to disturb the God-given order of things.

Regarding what Paul said about hair length, men should not grow long hair as there is no purpose in it. Women keep long hair to cover the pleasantness of their faces and the beauty that draws attention to them. This is not the case for men.

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. (1 Peter 3:1-7; ESV)​

And, again, we are told of the hierarchy. Women are to be subject to men. Though it is in this passage that we see the true intention and reason behind modesty:

Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.
Women are supposed to be humble in their relation to men. They are to respect man's God-given authority over them. Regarding physical modesty, the woman is to do this because the beauty of her spirit is so much more precious than that of external beauty. Submitting to a man and humbling oneself becomes easier when the man came to you for the preciousness of your spirit and not for the external signs that disappear in the grave. The external signs fade with age. And if the man came to you to honor your external shell, then how can that honor last?
 

frienden thalord

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,958
1,731
52
texas
✟59,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I assume we know that means no woman can lead or teach or usurp authority over the churches as well.
I beg us all to return to the pattern shown to us by the apostels , who followed the pattern of Christ .....
I plead to one and all.............forsake the doctrines of men for many churches have fallen.
love not religions of men nor traditions of men.
FOLLOW CHRIST , keep his sayings , learn the teachings of the true apostels who truly followed
Christ . I beg all , I plead with all, love the TRUTH , follow Christ and learn of HIM
 
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,524
2,427
USA
✟76,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
Modesty can be achieved by a woman concealing her body shape with loose fitting clothes. A modest woman will not manipulate her signs of age in order to be found more visually appealing to men. For example, a modest woman should not dye her hair, wear excessive makeup, or commit to cosmetic surgeries.

Riiiiiight! It's a little hard to hide certain womanly attributes. I dress to cover myself and to look good. I'm short and chubby so I'm not going to be wearing certain clothing, but if my clothing is going to distract you, I would submit that YOU have a problem, not me. As regarding dying my hair...thank you, I'll keep my Lady Clairol...I will not go grey anytime soon. I don't wear makeup because I'm allergic to it.

Yet these things also apply to men. Men likewise should be careful not to dress immodestly. A modest man will wear loose-fitting clothes and not clothes that reveal the shape of the body. Modest men will not dress so as to draw attention to themselves. Modest men will not try to conceal their age with dyed hair or cosmetic surgery.

Mr. RPD is long and lanky. His clothes reveal that he's tall, slender, built like a runner or swimmer. That's glaringly obvious even in a t-shirt and jeans.

A woman is not permitted to "teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." This is the way of a modest woman. A modest woman knows her role in the hierarchy of social order.

Guess I blew that one when I was the CEO and owner of my own firm. I blow that one every day when I teach men. But, I think that's a bunch of cultural hooey that needs to get tossed out.

Modest women will respect their position as below men and submissive to men. They will remain humble and not seek to disturb the God-given order of things

Below men? As in inferior? Not a chance.

Realize that much of that was written to a certain cultural setting and outlook. Go further into the background of those writings and stop trying to twist it all to fit your position.
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
I blow that one every day when I teach men. But, I think that's a bunch of cultural hooey that needs to get tossed out.

[...]

Below men? As in inferior? Not a chance.

[...]

Realize that much of that was written to a certain cultural setting and outlook. Go further into the background of those writings and stop trying to twist it all to fit your position.
You could have made your post quite a bit shorter by just saying you are immodest lol. I am perfectly aware of the background surrounding the books I quoted from. I am most certainly not "twisting" them, as I am taking them very literally. It would appear you are the one twisting them in order to fit with your own way of life.
 
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,524
2,427
USA
✟76,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
You could have made your post quite a bit shorter by just saying you are immodest lol. I am perfectly aware of the background surrounding the books I quoted from. I am most certainly not "twisting" them, as I am taking them very literally. It would appear you are the one twisting them in order to fit with your own way of life.

Ya know, I'm not one to worry about what other folks wear, do, say, drink, listen to, drive, whatever. However, people who spend time thinking about, researching and posting those sorts of screeds on a message board seriously worry me. I have enough going on in my own life to spend time worrying about someone else.

And yes, I am currently an adjunct professor of engineering at a local school. My classes are about 80% male. When I owned my own company, my employees were about 70% male. I am guessing you also have a low opinion of post-secondary education for women. I decided to not pursue a PhD. 2 Bachelor's and 2 Master's were enough.
 
Upvote 0

NothingIsImpossible

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
5,615
3,254
✟274,922.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
(gets out popcorn to watch this post)

Nothing creates more drama then a post about how a man or women should be modest. I will say though I personally am against if my wife wore to much like a two piece bikini. Or something that showed most of her chest off. But my wife tries to always be modest. She wears shorts under skirts/dresses for example. I don't expect her to wear long dressed that are bland and have her hair a certain way.
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Ya know, I'm not one to worry about what other folks wear, do, say, drink, listen to, drive, whatever. However, people who spend time thinking about, researching and posting those sorts of screeds on a message board seriously worry me. I have enough going on in my own life to spend time worrying about someone else.
I do have concerns for others, especially brothers and sisters in Christ. I have concerns for myself, but I do not stop myself there.


And yes, I am currently an adjunct professor of engineering at a local school. My classes are about 80% male. When I owned my own company, my employees were about 70% male. I am guessing you also have a low opinion of post-secondary education for women. I decided to not pursue a PhD. 2 Bachelor's and 2 Master's were enough.
Why do I need to know this?
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Oh look, men telling women how to think and behave again... because that's so respectful and courteous, and has solved so many problems in the past.
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Oh look, men telling women how to think and behave again... because that's so respectful and courteous, and has solved so many problems in the past.
If you disagree with the conclusions I am drawing then please correct me.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I disagree that it's up to any random man to tell women (or other men) whether or not it's modest to dress a particular way, use hair dye or cosmetics, especially without reference to particular circumstances.

But I wouldn't think you'd want to hear it from me, given that you think I'm too far your inferior to teach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
I disagree that it's up to any random man to tell women (or other men) whether or not it's modest to dress a particular way, use hair dye or cosmetics, especially without reference to particular circumstances.

But I wouldn't think you'd want to hear it from me, given that you think I'm too far your inferior to teach.
What about if the man is Paul?
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
You are not Paul.
No, but I quoted Paul and gave my interpretations of his words. You did not bother to address where I was wrong. If you do that then we can have a discussion. However, I cannot have a discussion with you if you do not bother to represent your disagreements in regard to my position. I believe that my position is in alignment with what Paul taught. Show me how that is not the case.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Where I think you are wrong is in trying to tell women you have never met, living lives about which you know nothing, how they should dress, think and behave.

Our lives are none of your business. We do not need other people on the internet to tell us what to do with our clothes, hair, make up, marriages or church involvement; or to suggest that if we don't meet your arbitrary standard that somehow we are wrong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Where I think you are wrong is in trying to tell women you have never met, living lives about which you know nothing, how they should dress, think and behave.

Our lives are none of your business. We do not need other people on the internet to tell us what to do with our clothes, hair, make up, marriages or church involvement; or to suggest that if we don't meet your arbitrary standard that somehow we are wrong.
If you believe this then the answer is simple: don't listen to me. However, this is not what I asked of you. You said that the words in my post are mine and not Paul's. You are partially correct in that my words are in the post. Yet I also directly quoted Paul. I also believe I was fair and balanced in my representation of Paul's words. So if you disagree with me then that is fine, but you also are expressing disagreement with Paul on some level.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Conker
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Not exactly. I agree with Paul that modesty is good; but I don't see Paul trying to set out a modesty standard (railing against hair dye, for example); but leaving it to his readers to discern what is immodest for them.

I also think your presentation on Paul's take on the role of women is very one-sided; it does not take into account the women in leadership in the church with whom Paul partnered, nor does it take into account Paul's statements on mutuality, interdependence and radical equality between men and women in church and in the home.
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Not exactly. I agree with Paul that modesty is good; but I don't see Paul trying to set out a modesty standard (railing against hair dye, for example); but leaving it to his readers to discern what is immodest for them.
Indeed, modesty is subjective to some degree. I do not believe that modesty is a concrete concept by any means. There is most certainly "wiggle room." My presentation is what I believe to be modesty based on my own reading and experiences. Though I believe my presentation of modesty is most certainly very minimal. I gather that you found my position against hair dye objectionable, but why? Do you not believe that the intention of men or women dying their hair is to either (a) draw attention to themselves (generally done with unnatural colors) or (b) conceal their age and make themselves more attractive to others?

I also think your presentation on Paul's take on the role of women is very one-sided; it does not take into account the women in leadership in the church with whom Paul partnered, nor does it take into account Paul's statements on mutuality, interdependence and radical equality between men and women in church and in the home.
May I ask for specific passages that you are referencing? I would hate to misrepresent your position.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Conker
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,524
2,427
USA
✟76,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you not believe that the intention of men or women dying their hair is to either (a) draw attention to themselves (generally done with unnatural colors) or (b) conceal their age and make themselves more attractive to others?

None of the above. My grey hair looks odd at best so I dye my hair back to close to my original color. As far as making myself more "attractive"...I've been married quite a while. Hubby thinks I'm all that...even if I am short and rather chubby. I have no one to impress...

My presentation is what I believe to be modesty based on my own reading and experiences.
Which makes your position quite subjective...so if it works for you, it works for you. However, due to the lack of objectivity, it has absolutely no meaning to anyone else.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think people use hair dye for all sorts of reasons, and some are probably better than others. For example, if a woman were to dye her hair to please her husband, that might be a good thing? It's better not to assume what motivation people have in doing something. (For example, the last time I dyed my hair, it was not so much to hide my age as to present a polished, professional look for interviews; it shouldn't matter, but in the world, it so often does).

I don't have time right now to pull out a bunch of references for you from Paul on women. I suggest you read this as a starting point. Women in Ministry: The Basis in Paul
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.