Modern Christians vs ancient Hebrews

[Nihilist Virus]

I grew up as a Christian my entire adolescent life. In that time I came away with some ideas that seemed to be overwhelmingly supported by all Christians

Christians, above all, are loyal to God. No Christian would renounce God even under fatal duress. Idolatry is so out of the question that Christians tend to worry about offending God if they spend too much time on a particular hobby (they believe that makes it become their god).

So how does it make any sense whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews witnessed the incarceration of the supreme creator of the universe and yet they all created a golden calf and worshipped it?

To be fair, the text does not explicitly say that they worshipped it. But they proclaimed it to be a god, and more than that they claimed that it helped them out of Egypt.

The incongruity here is massive. What do modern Christians know that the ancient Hebrews didn't? Why does it seem like the ancient Hebrews were unable to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible?

I'm led, by apologists, to believe that everyone in the ancient near east was polytheistic... except for the Hebrews, despite the fact that the Hebrews clearly were polytheistic by definition since they proclaimed the existence of, and hence believed in, more than one god.

Combined with the fact that, as I mentioned, they couldn't seem to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible, I think the conclusion is obvious. Is there any possible explanation for this aside from the obvious?

Also, let's not forget that King Solomon, famed as the wisest and wealthiest man to have ever lived, allowed his many foreign wives to commission the construction of idols. Why would such a wise man do this, particularly a wise man who spoke directly to Yahweh?

I've been told by apologists that some Hebrews worshipped other gods because such gods were thought to be blessing neighboring nations who were wealthy. But once again, were they or were they not able to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being? If the other idols actually could do things, as suggested by the story of Moses' serpent-staff showdown, then why do these idols not continue to perform works today?

What was the reason that the ancient Hebrews worshipped other gods and why would this reason not apply to you, presumably even under fatal duress?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I grew up as a Christian my entire adolescent life. In that time I came away with some ideas that seemed to be overwhelmingly supported by all Christians

Christians, above all, are loyal to God. No Christian would renounce God even under fatal duress. Idolatry is so out of the question that Christians tend to worry about offending God if they spend too much time on a particular hobby (they believe that makes it become their god).

So how does it make any sense whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews witnessed the incarceration of the supreme creator of the universe and yet they all created a golden calf and worshipped it?

To be fair, the text does not explicitly say that they worshipped it. But they proclaimed it to be a god, and more than that they claimed that it helped them out of Egypt.

The incongruity here is massive. What do modern Christians know that the ancient Hebrews didn't? Why does it seem like the ancient Hebrews were unable to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible?

I'm led, by apologists, to believe that everyone in the ancient near east was polytheistic... except for the Hebrews, despite the fact that the Hebrews clearly were polytheistic by definition since they proclaimed the existence of, and hence believed in, more than one god.

Combined with the fact that, as I mentioned, they couldn't seem to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible, I think the conclusion is obvious. Is there any possible explanation for this aside from the obvious?

Also, let's not forget that King Solomon, famed as the wisest and wealthiest man to have ever lived, allowed his many foreign wives to commission the construction of idols. Why would such a wise man do this, particularly a wise man who spoke directly to Yahweh?

I've been told by apologists that some Hebrews worshipped other gods because such gods were thought to be blessing neighboring nations who were wealthy. But once again, were they or were they not able to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being? If the other idols actually could do things, as suggested by the story of Moses' serpent-staff showdown, then why do these idols not continue to perform works today?

What was the reason that the ancient Hebrews worshipped other gods and why would this reason not apply to you, presumably even under fatal duress?

First off, not all ancient Hebrews worshiped other gods; some people hanging in and around the Hebrew people had polytheistic tendencies, some henotheistic, and some monotheistic. Some of them were simply human and confused even though they were in the middle of God's miraculous work. Some of them were also more corrupt than some of the others; corruption doesn't help the epistemological processes operate efficiently, and in such cases, some Hebrews were impeded in having a sense of clarity as to what was "really" going on between Moses and this God of his.

As we see in the account of the Golden-calf, it wasn't ALL of the Hebrews who fell to sexing it up and worshiping the calf-idol. It was about half or so. Add to this the fact that the human mind is malleable, and you've got a complex, day by day situation in which a Hebrew, who supposedly walked between supernaturally supported walls of water, could come out on the other side and then think to himself, "I think maybe Moses doesn't really know what he's doing with this God of his--sure the God real, but Moses obviously is inept in appeasing this God, and maybe Moses died on the Mountain. So, I'm going to worship in the way that I see is most fitting."

What's to keep this from happening to me today? Not a whole lot, NH. I presume that if I get carried away with constant hypothetical thinking in which I only trust in what I can experience and understand at face value, I'd very likely do something rash too in regard to shirking the expected cultivation of faith before the One True God. I don't assume I'm exempt from misperception.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

...So how does it make any sense whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews witnessed the incarceration of the supreme creator of the universe and yet they all created a golden calf and worshipped it?...

Sure it does. All through the Old Testament history, we see the people of Israel leaning, time after time, towards worshipping other gods. This continued until the captivity of Babylon. The captivity experience cured them of worshipping other gods. Today, it is very hard to get a jew to worship other gods. You can get a jew to be an atheist, but not to worship a false god.

It is a matter of the cultural milieu in which they were embedded.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The Golden Calf was clearly meant to represent the God that led them out of Egypt. Aaron proclaims this. It is clearly a representation of YHWH, not a foreign god. Similarly the calves at Dan and Bethel. It is thus not so strange.

The Hebrews were the only monotheists except for the short lived Atenism in Egypt and perhaps a tendency by Ra's priesthood at Heliopolis. They probably only became so later though, with Monolatry being the earlier form they practised. Thus Solomon building shrines for his foreign wives is not far fetched if each nation has its own god.
Similarly we see Rachel stealing Laban's teraphim or Mica building an idol with stolen gold or Asherah poles being placed next to altars.
All this clearly shows syncreticism with surrounding peoples, but is also clearly being condemned, even in older portions of the Bible.

God is depicted as clearly entering into a covenant, with a development of themes of rule and morality, of rights and duties, in the Torah and later parts of the OT. This is clearly based in Semitic religion, it is not foreign to Israel's neighbours, but it is radically different in spirit. To look back in hindsight and ask 'why did they worship other gods' is to miss the point entirely, that a New covenant was made, with a God that Is, I AM that I AM. Sinful man always chases other gods, be they seen as beings or more earthly desires, for this is really not strange at all.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Golden Calf was clearly meant to represent the God that led them out of Egypt. Aaron proclaims this. It is clearly a representation of YHWH, not a foreign god. Similarly the calves at Dan and Bethel. It is thus not so strange.

The Hebrews were the only monotheists except for the short lived Atenism in Egypt and perhaps a tendency by Ra's priesthood at Heliopolis. They probably only became so later though, with Monolatry being the earlier form they practised. Thus Solomon building shrines for his foreign wives is not far fetched if each nation has its own god.
Similarly we see Rachel stealing Laban's teraphim or Mica building an idol with stolen gold or Asherah poles being placed next to altars.
All this clearly shows syncreticism with surrounding peoples, but is also clearly being condemned, even in older portions of the Bible.

God is depicted as clearly entering into a covenant, with a development of themes of rule and morality, of rights and duties, in the Torah and later parts of the OT. This is clearly based in Semitic religion, it is not foreign to Israel's neighbours, but it is radically different in spirit. To look back in hindsight and ask 'why did they worship other gods' is to miss the point entirely, that a New covenant was made, with a God that Is, I AM that I AM. Sinful man always chases other gods, be they seen as beings or more earthly desires, for this is really not strange at all.

I haven't read this and I don't intend to. I told you as a courtesy that we were done. I'm extending this courtesy again.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

First off, not all ancient Hebrews worshiped other gods; some people hanging in and around the Hebrew people had polytheistic tendencies, some henotheistic, and some monotheistic. Some of them were simply human and confused even though they were in the middle of God's miraculous work. Some them were also more corrupt than some of the others; corruption doesn't help the epistemological processes operate efficiently, and in such cases, some Hebrews were impeded in having a sense of clarity as to what was "really" going on between Moses and this God of his.

As we see in the account of the Golden-calf, it wasn't ALL of the Hebrews who fell to sexing it up and worshiping the calf-idol. It was about half or so. Add to this the fact that the human mind is malleable, and you've got a complex, day by day situation in which a Hebrew, who supposedly walked between supernaturally supported walls of water, could come out on the other side and then think to himself, "I think maybe Moses doesn't really know what he's doing with this God of his--sure the God real, but Moses obviously is inept in appeasing this God, and maybe Moses died on the Mountain. So, I'm going to worship in the way that I see is most fitting."

What's to keep this from happening to me today? Not a whole lot, NH. I presume that if I get carried away with constant hypothetical thinking in which I only trust in what I can experience and understand at face value, I'd very likely do something rash too in regard to shirking the expected cultivation of faith before the One True God. I don't assume I'm exempt from misperception.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Your response does not fit the data.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sure it does. All through the Old Testament history, we see the people of Israel leaning, time after time, towards worshipping other gods.

Why? I'm asking why it happened and your answer is, "Because it happened repeatedly."

This continued until the captivity of Babylon. The captivity experience cured them of worshipping other gods.

Why? You're explaining nothing. What about Babylon was different from Egypt?

Today, it is very hard to get a jew to worship other gods. You can get a jew to be an atheist, but not to worship a false god.

That's the same with virtually all modern religions. Singling out Jews to try to prove your point is not the most honest approach.

It is a matter of the cultural milieu in which they were embedded.

I'm asking why.

 

[JackRT]

Sure it does. All through the Old Testament history, we see the people of Israel leaning, time after time, towards worshipping other gods. This continued until the captivity of Babylon. The captivity experience cured them of worshipping other gods. Today, it is very hard to get a jew to worship other gods. You can get a jew to be an atheist, but not to worship a false god.

It is a matter of the cultural milieu in which they were embedded.

I agree for the most part. We must keep in mind that Israel was a small nation located at the crossroads of great and powerful nations and that shaped their culture and beliefs tremendously. The Babylonian Captivity did shape the Jewish religious understandings. Before the exile the Jews attributed both good and evil to YHWH. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) that were engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Most Christians continue in this belief to the present day. Given the proximity of Babylon to Israel, it is not hard to see the connection between Zoroastrianism and Judaism continuing at some level. Even at the time of Jesus there were still a million or more Jews living in the Babylon area.

 

[Soyeong]

I grew up as a Christian my entire adolescent life. In that time I came away with some ideas that seemed to be overwhelmingly supported by all Christians

Christians, above all, are loyal to God. No Christian would renounce God even under fatal duress. Idolatry is so out of the question that Christians tend to worry about offending God if they spend too much time on a particular hobby (they believe that makes it become their god).

So how does it make any sense whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews witnessed the incarceration of the supreme creator of the universe and yet they all created a golden calf and worshipped it?

To be fair, the text does not explicitly say that they worshipped it. But they proclaimed it to be a god, and more than that they claimed that it helped them out of Egypt.

The incongruity here is massive. What do modern Christians know that the ancient Hebrews didn't? Why does it seem like the ancient Hebrews were unable to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible?

I'm led, by apologists, to believe that everyone in the ancient near east was polytheistic... except for the Hebrews, despite the fact that the Hebrews clearly were polytheistic by definition since they proclaimed the existence of, and hence believed in, more than one god.

Combined with the fact that, as I mentioned, they couldn't seem to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being performing feats that should be impossible, I think the conclusion is obvious. Is there any possible explanation for this aside from the obvious?

Also, let's not forget that King Solomon, famed as the wisest and wealthiest man to have ever lived, allowed his many foreign wives to commission the construction of idols. Why would such a wise man do this, particularly a wise man who spoke directly to Yahweh?

I've been told by apologists that some Hebrews worshipped other gods because such gods were thought to be blessing neighboring nations who were wealthy. But once again, were they or were they not able to distinguish between inanimate idols and the incarnation of a supreme being? If the other idols actually could do things, as suggested by the story of Moses' serpent-staff showdown, then why do these idols not continue to perform works today?

What was the reason that the ancient Hebrews worshipped other gods and why would this reason not apply to you, presumably even under fatal duress?

The Hebrews were were descended from Abraham, who taught a monotheistic religion, but they had been in Egypt for 400 years, so there is no doubt that some of Egyptian culture had rubbed off of them. However, the issue with the calf was not that they were going after a different God because they referred to it has the same God who brought them out of Egypt, but rather the issue was that they were using an idol to represent God.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Hebrews were were descended from Abraham, who taught a monotheistic religion, but they had been in Egypt for 400 years, so there is no doubt that some of Egyptian culture had rubbed off of them. However, the issue with the calf was not that they were going after a different God because they referred to it has the same God who brought them out of Egypt, but rather the issue was that they were using an idol to represent God.

An interesting perspective. Why did they make it a calf?

 

[Soyeong]

An interesting perspective. Why did they make it a calf?

Exodus 32:5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.”

Again, I think saying that it is a feast to the Lord indicates that Aaron was not using the calf to represent a different deity. The reason for making the calf was because they didn't know what happened to Moses (32:1), so the calf served as a conduit to replace the role that Moses had as mediator between them and God. Bulls were sometimes used as mounts, rather than being worshipped themselves, so the deity was implied invisibly and indirectly, but nevertheless was in violation of the commandment.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your response does not fit the data.

Which set of data, NH?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I haven't read this and I don't intend to. I told you as a courtesy that we were done. I'm extending this courtesy again.

I will respond to whatever I want to. Whether you read it or not is your own business. Others may do so and perhaps we can then discuss things and mutually gain therefrom, but you are under no obligation to do so. This is a public forum.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Which set of data, NH?

What's to keep this from happening to me today? Not a whole lot, NH.

I just don't find that to be very honest or helpful. We both know that you wouldn't worship a false god or deny your God even at gunpoint. Yet the ancient Hebrews did this by the thousands seemingly for no reason while in no danger. I ask what gives and you seem to be telling me, "Well who knows... maybe I feel like making an abomination unto the Lord."

The data is this: we have precisely zero Christians worshipping other deities. So the data suggests that there is certainly more than "not a whole lot" preventing you and the rest of Christianity from doing this. As always, I can't just get a straight answer from Christians.

The correct answer is, "I don't know" and everyone here has failed.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Exodus 32:5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.”

Again, I think saying that it is a feast to the Lord indicates that Aaron was not using the calf to represent a different deity. The reason for making the calf was because they didn't know what happened to Moses (32:1), so the calf served as a conduit to replace the role that Moses had as mediator between them and God. Bulls were sometimes used as mounts, rather than being worshipped themselves, so the deity was implied invisibly and indirectly, but nevertheless was in violation of the commandment.

Your analysis fails to account for King Solomon's folly though.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What's to keep this from happening to me today? Not a whole lot, NH.

I just don't find that to be very honest or helpful. We both know that you wouldn't worship a false god or deny your God even at gunpoint.

How do you know that I've never "denied" God by my actions, even if such a denial did not come directly through my words? How do you know I've never doubted God? How do you know I've always been trustworthy or faithful? I wish I could say that that has been the case during the entire time I've been a Christian. But that would be wishful thinking.

No, the fact is that a variety of emotional, motivational, perceptual, and conceptual factors can contribute to deviance from God's will, and it is always possible for this kind of thing to happen, NH. If you don't think so, then I'd have to say that your understanding of biblical epistemology is a bit "off." Just a bit. And some of the same epistemological pattern which we find involved with the Golden-calf incident we also find in the New Testament, with Luke 16:31 being just one little example; the Parable of the Sower being another.

"Yet the ancient Hebrews did this by the thousands seemingly for no reason while in no danger. I ask what gives and you seem to be telling me, "Well who knows... maybe I feel like making an abomination unto the Lord."

I hate to say what I'm about to say in the way in which I am about to say it, but your statements here are baloney----people everyday have disappointments and pain which intervene in what we might call "intended commitments" and they then might either apostasize from the faith, or they might even "just" sin, because of the possible confusions, misperceptions, letdowns, pains and/or other emotional hurts life brings. And they may, and often do, blame God and/or His appointed leaders for what appear to be spiritual failures (which is what the text of the Golden-calf implies; in fact, this is what the entire Old Testament implies).

So, no, you'll have to do better than that in your refutation. I'm not buying your refusal to see something which you perhaps haven't even studied. My epistemological understanding of the Bible is more nuanced than that which is typically espoused by my more Fundamentalist Christian brethren, so I don't think I will have to wilt before the onslaught of vacuous, "Positivist" style argumentation that you've been so caught up in.

The data is this: we have precisely zero Christians worshipping other deities.

Baloney! Many of them worship "Mammon" as the current golden-calf (with emphasis more on the 'Gold' aspect of it)... So, you've got to be kidding, HN! In fact, you made this very indictment, even if indirectly and unbeknownst to yourself, the moment you stepped into CF a year or two ago, when you cited Christians for spiritual failure in not "giving enough" of their money to charity. (And to some extent, you were right.) So, I can't help but see that you refute yourself on this point.

So the data suggests that there is certainly more than "not a whole lot" preventing you and the rest of Christianity from doing this. As always, I can't just get a straight answer from Christians.

You don't have a data set on me whatsoever. You know next to nothing about me, (and you probably haven't bothered to look at my CF profile information either,) just as I know almost next to nothing about you, other than that you have a very high intelligence and like books with strange, circular titles.

The correct answer is, "I don't know" and everyone here has failed.

No, the correct answer is, "I don't know everything," ... and neither do you.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Israel had prophets and judges chosen by God to help lead them
as His chosen people. Other nations had kings...and before Samuel
died that is what the Hebrews wanted. Also, it was not just Hebrews that
had left Egypt with Moses. Anyway, these kings wanted to win battles and
it seems it was up to them whether foreign fake gods were found in their land. The land would have idols, then later a king would get rid of them...his
evil son would set up idols in his reign and so on. The people would see punishments come during the times of the idols were removed. They wanted
the idolatry back as they had better times when they were around...as they saw it. They did not realize that the problems during the righteousness type
of rulers were because of the times of disobedience earlier. The church is scattered around the world. We don't have our real home here, nor a main earthly ruler over us. We were made a people to make Israel jealous and to
praise the Lord. Our battles are against evil spiritual forces. We do not go through an earthly high priest to make atonement for our sins. We have direct access to God the Father...through Jesus Christ.

In what way does this answer any of my questions?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The correct answer is, "I don't know" and everyone here has failed

interesting how you've already decided what the answer should be. Clearly you would discount any explanation or extrapolation regardless how applicable as you know the 'correct' one.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

How do you know that I've never "denied" God by my actions, even if such a denial did not come directly through my words? How do you know I've never doubted God? How do you know I've always been trustworthy or faithful? I wish I could say that that has been the case during the entire time I've been a Christian. But that would be wishful thinking.

I think you know how irrelevant this is.

Would you ever make an idol and worship it? If not, why?

I am a mathematics major and as such I am unequipped to judge your dancing technique, no matter how well you dance around my question.

No, the fact is that a variety of emotional, motivational, perceptual, and conceptual factors can contribute to deviance from God's will, and it is always possible for this kind of thing to happen, NH. If you don't think so, then I'd have to say that your understanding of biblical epistemology is a bit "off." Just a bit. And some of the same epistemological pattern which we find involved with the Golden-calf incident we also find in the New Testament, with Luke 16:31 being just one little example; the Parable of the Sower being another.

I'm no closer to understanding why the ancient Hebrews did this.

I hate to say what I'm about to say in the way in which I am about to say it, but your statements here are baloney----people everyday have disappointments and pain which intervene in what we might call "intended commitments" and they then might either apostasize from the faith, or they might even "just" sin, because of the possible confusions, misperceptions, letdowns, pains and/or other emotional hurts life brings. And they may, and often do, blame God and/or His appointed leaders for what appear to be spiritual failures (which is what the text of the Golden-calf implies; in fact, this is what the entire Old Testament implies).

And parents might let down their children, but that happens. And then there are lines that should not be crossed.

You can't help it if doubts creep into your mind. You can't help it if you sin. But committing the most abominable act is not just another sin - it's crossing the line - and for you to ignore this, suggest otherwise, or lump it in with other actions is the utmost epitome of dishonesty.

You have a doctrinal obligation to defend certain ideas and you are dancing on the ceiling to avoid the elephant in the room.

So, no, you'll have to do better than that in your refutation. I'm not buying your refusal to see something which you perhaps haven't even studied.

I've read the entire Bible. That's why I'm atheist.

My epistemological understanding of the Bible is more nuanced than that which is typically espoused by my more Fundamentalist Christian brethren, so I don't think I will have to wilt before the onslaught of vacuous, "Positivist" style argumentation that you've been so caught up in.

Positivist?

Baloney! Many of them worship "Mammon" as the current golden-calf (with emphasis more on the 'Gold' aspect of it)... So, you've got to be kidding, HN!

Money, power and sex have always existed. But they did not worship those things. They worshipped a golden calf. I'm just asking why and you seem to be willing to discuss anything but that.

In fact, you made this very indictment, even if indirectly and unbeknownst to yourself, the moment you stepped into CF a year or two ago, when you cited Christians for spiritual failure in not "giving enough" of their money to charity. (And to some extent, you were right.) So, I can't help but see that you refute yourself on this point.

I never accused Christians of worshipping money. I accused them of not following simple instructions.

You don't have a data set on me whatsoever.

If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the solvent. Care to help with the data set?

Data point #1: Have you ever bowed down and touched your head to the ground before an object made from human hands?

Data point #2: Under what conditions would you do that?

You know next to nothing about me, (and you probably haven't bothered to look at my CF profile information either,)

I like the shameless plug. I've looked you up but not recently.

just as I know almost next to nothing about you, other than that you have a very high intelligence and like books with strange, circular titles.

While we're doing shameless plugs, I listed that book because it's my most recent publication.

No, the correct answer is, "I don't know everything," ... and neither do you.

That's more a problem for your worldview than it is for mine. On atheism, the knowledge of humanity is accumulated through grueling effort; on theism, certain knowledge is emparted directly from an omniscient source.