Misplaced, irrevelant, and erroneous attack.

Danoh

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Where is in in Scripture?

All over Romans 5, that's where.

In Romans 8, that's where.

In ... never mind... back to the "books about" and the preterism of BAB2, Riberra, Interplanner, Ebedmelech and company...

You're all the same in this issue - your different labels don't change that...

Funny that you guys only agree with one another where you are wrong :)

BAB2, how's about some posts about your post-trib rapture notions - see how long these "brothers" of yours side with you, lol
 
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Job8

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Based on all the failed rapture timing predictions done by the pre-trib rapturists. It is clear that the pre-trib rapture doctrine come in head of the list about deceptive doctrines with potentially dangerous underpinnings which can be very misleading.
Date-setters are totally unacceptable to those who believe the whole counsel of God. Date-setters are also fringe elements, and usually promote other false doctrines as well e.g. Harold Camping.

Just because a few "spiritual idiots" have resorted to sensationalism and other nonsense does not mean that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not the true Bible teaching or that Dispensationalism has no value whatsoever. Indeed, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Divine necessity since Paul, addressing Christians, says that "God has NOT appointed us to wrath..." (1 Thess 5:9).
 
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ebedmelech

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Where is in in Scripture?

All over Romans 5, that's where.

In Romans 8, that's where.

In ... never mind... back to the "books about" and the preterism of BAB2, Riberra, Interplanner, Ebedmelech and company...

You're all the same in this issue - your different labels don't change that...

Funny that you guys only agree with one another where you are wrong :)

BAB2, how's about some posts about your post-trib rapture notions - see how long these "brothers" of yours side with you, lol
The way your read scripture Danoh...you're not one to talk. You basically have no clue of Romans 5 or 8.

I can truly see in your post the fact that you disregard whole blocks of scripture in in support of the error of Stam. PURE ERROR!
 
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Danoh

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The way your read scripture Danoh...you're not one to talk. You basically have no clue of Romans 5 or 8.

I can truly see in your post the fact that you disregard whole blocks of scripture in in support of the error of Stam. PURE ERROR!

Yeah you "can truly see," yeah, ok...
 
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Riberra

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Date-setters are totally unacceptable to those who believe the whole counsel of God. Date-setters are also fringe elements, and usually promote other false doctrines as well e.g. Harold Camping.

Just because a few "spiritual idiots" have resorted to sensationalism and other nonsense does not mean that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not the true Bible teaching or that Dispensationalism has no value whatsoever. Indeed, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Divine necessity since Paul, addressing Christians, says that "God has NOT appointed us to wrath..." (1 Thess 5:9).
Why every time that a pre-tribber quote the(1 Thess 5:9) passage the last part of the verse is always missing ? To obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ does not mean being taken out of the Earth ....

1 Thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul was certainly not protected by God from the wrath of the unbelievers.Paul was beheaded some years after the writings of (1 Thess 5:9)That speaks lots of volume about the kind of protection we should expect from the wrath of the unbelievers .-Right now in some countries Christians are being martyred and beheaded- .One thing for sure Paul will get Salvation at the resurrection of the Saints and his soul is in Heaven where Jesus have prepared a place ...

The sudden destruction that Paul is talking about in
1 Thessalonians 5:3 will be the destruction of the bad peoples (Satan's seed ) when Jesus will return in Glory at the End of the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 5 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+5&version=KJV

Link:
Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Neither the Bible nor other sources say how or when Paul died, but Ignatius, probably around 110, writes that Paul was martyred.[85] Christian tradition holds that Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s at Tre Fontane Abbey (English: Three Fountains Abbey).[86] By comparison, tradition states that Peter, who was not a Roman citizen, was given the more painful death of being crucified upside-down.[87]
 
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ebedmelech

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Riberra, Job8 doesn't see that the phrase "God has not APPOINTED us to wrath" refers to final judgment. In so doing, he is seeing God's wrath as judgment in this world, when "APPOINTED" is pointing to FINAL judgment.

The fact that Paul goes on to speak to the final resurrection after that escapes him because he buys into the rapture theory...when if your read the passage properly, it refers to the resurrection of living believers as well as d=believers that have died.

The fact that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14 that:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


The disconnect, is the teaching that Paul had some *special revelation* of a pre-trib rapture...when the fact is...this is a brief version of 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.
 
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BABerean2

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One of the greatest errors of Dispensational Theology is confusing Abraham's physical seed, which also includes the Arabs, with his Spiritual Seed who have been adopted through the One Seed, which is Christ.

If they understood who "Israel" truly is, it would eliminate all of the arguments over the unfulfilled promises in the Old Testament.

In John chapter 8 Christ makes it clear that the physical seed are not the Spiritual Seed.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.




Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Being a physical descendant of Abraham does not make one part of the Spiritual Seed.


Who are Abraham's Seed?
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-NsFirYJuA

.
 
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Danoh

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One of the greatest errors of Dispensational Theology is confusing Abraham's physical seed, which also includes the Arabs, with his Spiritual Seed who have been adopted through the One Seed, which is Christ.

If they understood who "Israel" truly is, it would eliminate all of the arguments over the unfulfilled promises in the Old Testament.

In John chapter 8 Christ makes it clear that the physical seed are not the Spiritual Seed.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.




Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Being a physical descendant of Abraham does not make one part of the Spiritual Seed.


Who are Abraham's Seed?
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-NsFirYJuA

.

What a character you are, BAB2 - you don't even understand the Bible's concept of adoption - yet here you are trying to "save" others from supposed error.

Do yourself a favor. Get something out of all this wasted time of yours... get yourself a YouTube account, post all those videos on there, and then link to that account from here so you at least get YouTube credit for all those erroneous videos you post on here.

Who knows, maybe after a year, or so, there will be a vote for most erroneous YouTube clips recommended and you'll win some sort of a free "best of" pdf by none other than your favorite straw man "experts."

:D
 
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Riberra

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Riberra, Job8 doesn't see that the phrase "God has not APPOINTED us to wrath" refers to final judgment. In so doing, he is seeing God's wrath as judgment in this world, when "APPOINTED" is pointing to FINAL judgment.

The fact that Paul goes on to speak to the final resurrection after that escapes him because he buys into the rapture theory...when if your read the passage properly, it refers to the resurrection of living believers as well as d=believers that have died.

The fact that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14 that:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


The disconnect, is the teaching that Paul had some *special revelation* of a pre-trib rapture...when the fact is...this is a brief version of 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.

True ! :thumbsup:
 
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Biblewriter

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These two centuries are by nature not clear, BW. There is plenty of reason to think that the apostles thought the 70 weeks to have happened, and that the battle mentioned in the last verse of Dan 9 was to happen after them as Christ said in the full wrath of God of Lk 21 on that generation.

This is utter nonsense. You cannot back it up with a single verse of scripture, even taken out of context.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is because it's NO WHERE in scripture! It's a contrived teaching!

I can agree...however what is material is where is it in scripture?

That *could* basically be true. Even if it is though, error brings more error. There have been and will be many theologians that have errors in their theology/eschatology. How *old* a teaching is, is irrelevant if it can be shown it's error.

These have all been debated THROUGHOUT Christian history, and will continue to be debated. You're not raising a new issue Biblewriter.

That doesn't make it correct though! Look at all the error Jesus had to correct when He did His earthly ministry...and that which He corrected was what was being taught to the people for the most part.

THERE IS NO GAP IN THE SEVENTY WEEKS...it has to be contrived!

Moreover, it doesn't matter that you deem it a "Misplaced, irrevelant, and erroneous attack" because an erroneous teaching should be attacked.

Many of the NT epistles are the apostles correcting error and setting the record straight for the church!

I am glad to see that you at least admit two things. First, that when and by whom a doctrine was first taught is irrelevant. And second, that these doctrines at least "may" have been taught in ancient times.

My historical arguments are directed entirely toward three false accusations. First, that these doctrines were never taught before the 1800's. This is advanced in an argument that anything new cannot be true. Second, that they came from a Jesuit source. This is advanced as a claim that it cannot be true if it came from such a source. And third and worst of all, that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine was based on a demon-inspired vision, rather than upon the scriptures. This is advanced in an attempt do discredit not only the doctrine itself, but the people who teach it. All three claims are provably false.
 
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BABerean2

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This is utter nonsense. You cannot back it up with a single verse of scripture, even taken out of context.

When an angel of God says a prophecy will last for 490 years, those that take the Bible "literally" actually believe what he said.
It was finished 490 years after it started.

Changing a covenant confirmed by Christ into a treaty broken by the antichrist, by adding a gap of underdetermined length, is not a "literal" interpretation of scripture, no matter who it comes from.



Daniel's 70 weeks have been completed based on the words of Christ himself in Matthew 26:28.

.....................................................................

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.


.................................................................

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
(Jerusalem was surrounded by the Romans under Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and by the Romans under Titus in 70 AD)
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.





Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


In the verses below the Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled Mark 13:9.

Act_22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


Full-Futurism requires one to put on blinders and ignore those passages that were clearly fulfilled in the past.

In some ways it is just as bad as Full-Preterism.


Both are clearly wrong, based on the text.




.
 
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Danoh

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BAB2 you related "Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Which you then erroneously connected to "Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

And to "Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

And to "Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."

Or rather, parroted - for your assertion is not new - countless "books about" assert that very error.

Fact is that the "desolate" you are connecting those passages to one another through is not the same in the same sense, said word, or any word, is studied in light scope and context properly considered.

You need to learn how to properly use a Concordance:

http://letsrollforums.com/properly-use-strongs-concordance-t31342.html

In Matthew 23, He asserted "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," before He died.

Further actual sense of "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," is His leaving the Temple as He had found it - as desolate as it had been for some centuries even before His birth.

When He walked into that Temple - the Glory of God that Ezekiel saw leave that Temple, returned to that Temple in the person of Christ. When He walked out of there after asserting "Ye have made My Father's House a den of thieves!" - when He walked out of that Temple - the Glory of God remained with Him - leaving the Temples as He had found it - "desolate."

What that was, was an aspect of Malachi 3:

1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Thus, the sense of Matthew 21's:

9. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11. And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Concerning said Temple's keepers - Israel's corrupt religious leadership:

42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

You talk about literal when it is convenient.

Even that "nation bringing forth the fruits thereof," was identified by Him, and it had to do with the nation Israel:

Matthew 19:

27. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee;what shall we have therefore?
28. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

"...a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof"? - Luke 12:

31. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

I've wandered off into other areas in this post because, one, they are so connected to one another that each sheds its light on the other, two, because you and yours are so off in so many of these areas due to the fact of your consistent habit of inducing an erroneous Premise as to one aspect that you then Deduce the equally erroneous Conclusions and Assertions as to all else that you end up asserting.

Your error appears as light unto your heart only from within the vacuum you are looking at said error from. As with a horse with blinders; only able to see what its sight has been forced to look upon - in your case - someone else's straight dead ahead, never mind that information on the side of the road, handed down from book writer to book writer to book writer to you and yours.

That is why your incessant pdfs, links, and YouTube videos, and that is why they make sense to you.

Might as well assert that a male suicidist is right in his assertion that seventy virgins await his action simply because he and his assert that is the case.
 
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BABerean2

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BAB2 you related "Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Which you then erroneously connected to "Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

And to "Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

And to "Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."

Or rather, parroted - for your assertion is not new - countless "books about" assert that very error.

Fact is that the "desolate" you are connecting those passages to one another through is not the same in the same sense, said word, or any word, is studied in light scope and context properly considered.

You need to learn how to properly use a Concordance:

http://letsrollforums.com/properly-use-strongs-concordance-t31342.html

In Matthew 23, He asserted "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," before He died.

Further actual sense of "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," is His leaving the Temple as He had found it - as desolate as it had been for some centuries even before His birth.

When He walked into that Temple - the Glory of God that Ezekiel saw leave that Temple, returned to that Temple in the person of Christ. When He walked out of there after asserting "Ye have made My Father's House a den of thieves!" - when He walked out of that Temple - the Glory of God remained with Him - leaving the Temples as He had found it - "desolate."

What that was, was an aspect of Malachi 3:

1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Thus, the sense of Matthew 21's:

9. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11. And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Concerning said Temple's keepers - Israel's corrupt religious leadership:

42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

You talk about literal when it is convenient.

Even that "nation bringing forth the fruits thereof," was identified by Him, and it had to do with the nation Israel:

Matthew 19:

27. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee;what shall we have therefore?
28. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

"...a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof"? - Luke 12:

31. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

I've wandered off into other areas in this post because, one, they are so connected to one another that each sheds its light on the other, two, because you and yours are so off in so many of these areas due to the fact of your consistent habit of inducing an erroneous Premise as to one aspect that you then Deduce the equally erroneous Conclusions and Assertions as to all else that you end up asserting.

Your error appears as light unto your heart only from within the vacuum you are looking at said error from. As with a horse with blinders; only able to see what its sight has been forced to look upon - in your case - someone else's straight dead ahead, never mind that information on the side of the road, handed down from book writer to book writer to book writer to you and yours.

That is why your incessant pdfs, links, and YouTube videos, and that is why they make sense to you.

Might as well assert that a male suicidist is right in his assertion that seventy virgins await his action simply because he and his assert that is the case.

Danoh, or is it Dano,

You may want to get a better Concordance.

Look what I found in mine.

I found your "nation" you are looking for.




1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


The Apostle Peter was addressing Christians of his day.

They are the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, to which the eternal promise was made.

You keep confusing them with the physical seed.




Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


My Concordance is titled "Strongest Strong's".



You might want to get a copy.





.
 
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BABerean2

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Married
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