Miranda Devine: Reverse racism is now acceptable in Australia

greenguzzi

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Even if race only exists as a social construct...then it still exists. Just because it's an idea doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Capitalism is a "social construct" ....and it exists. Your notion of a "self" is a psychological construct...and it exists.
There is a distinction that you have missed. Something existing in its own right (taxonomical species for example) is not the same as something existing as a social construct (the sociological concept of race for example).

A rat will always be a rat regardless of any social construct. But a Caucasian will only be a Caucasian for as long as society defines it as one. Take away the social construct, and there is nothing there; it is an empty "existence" that has no real substance. Unlike a species, a "race" is something that can be changed. Changed simply by thinking about it differently.

I hold a degree in political science, with a minor in international relations. I've had several courses on statistical analysis/research. Everything I've written there makes sense...but if you need me to dumb it down for you, I can.
"...had several courses". I guess that settles it then.
 
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greenguzzi

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Ok...but surely you realize that if there is a correlation, then it's entirely relevant?

This reply of yours makes no sense. As I said before, you need to learn a bit more about statistics before you and I can have a sensible conversation on this subject.

I've had several courses on statistical analysis/research.
QED:

statistics.png


More here...
spurious-correlations
 
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whatbogsends

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I can see how I gave that impression. I should have worded it better.

Any group of individuals who share a common experience or a common history will share common characteristics. As you point out, certain Asian groups perform better academically than average because their culture demands it. Certain African populations perform better athletically than average because their population has selected for it.

Not only do certain Asian groups perform better academically, but they have better life outcomes (if we're using the metric that higher income = better outcome). Certain characteristics (such as promotion of a work ethic, or, conversely, a culture which does not place emphasis on work ethic) will have a strong correlation to outcomes.

The same applies for health outcomes. If a certain culture promotes a healthy diet and exercise and another culture doesn't emphasize these things (and tends toward things like fast foods and sugary snacks), you should expect different health outcomes for those groups. Overall health outcomes should vary based on the characteristics (especially those that reflect in diet and activity) with no external bias.

But that's not the same as success in life. I am good at maths and science and hopeless at athletics. A friend of mine is the opposite, he's good at athletics and hopeless at maths and science. But we are both successful in life. It's not the characteristics of the group that's the problem, but the outcomes of the group. For example: If members of one group is incarcerated five times as often as the members of another, then there is a problem beyond the group and its characteristics. The same applies for health outcomes. (Assuming that the group isn't self selecting for health problems: Obviously a group of Down syndrome individuals would fair worse health wise than the average.) Also it seems clear that the health issues of different groups would most likely be different in nature (not in severity), but the overall health outcomes should be very similar for each group, unless there was some external bias.

I'd wager that a part of the reason of the success of you and your friend is that you both probably have a good work ethic and place a high value on effort. I'd also say that the outcomes of two individuals is hardly reflective of social demographic trends.

There is sometimes difficulty separating outcomes and characteristics. I think the best example of this is generational racism. If a group has been deprived of good education for generations solely on the basis of their race (which has happened here in Australia), then this will show up in their characteristics. Poor knowledge and poor reasoning skills will show up as a characteristic. But it's not an intrinsic characteristic. It is one that has been foisted on them from outside their group, and therefore it is actually an external bias.

While outcomes and characteristics are not the same thing, they can (and often do) have a correlation.

I'm not arguing that all characteristics are intrinsic. However differences in characteristics are not necessarily "foisted on them from outside of their groups". Plenty of different social groups, historically, have placed different emphasis on different traits, and unless you don't believe in the theory of natural selections, you should expect different characteristics - and outcomes to arise over time.

I agree that generational racism is real, and that past racial bias impacts current outcomes based on cumulative effect (such as poor education being deprived for a particular racial group).

I'd put it slightly differently:
"Systematic bias is one of the major reasons for significant outcome differences between different groups within any society"

I'd put it differently, myself:

"Systemic bias is one of the many reasons for significant outcome differences between different groups within any society. The impact of societal bias varies widely, and is often difficult to isolate."

It's interesting that you start arguing from the aspect of characteristics and end up talking about outcomes. You do it seamlessly as though they are the same thing. They are not. Yes, different groups may have different characteristics, but the outcomes of each group should be similar. If they are not, then there is a clear reason (eg: my Down syndrome example) or there is some external bias occurring. In both cases we should address the problem; this is why we have affirmative action, anti discrimination laws, and accessibility regulations. .

It's interesting that you (and some others I've had these types of discussions with) will concede that racial groups do, indeed, have different characteristics, but will, in the same breadth, deny that different characteristics are likely to lead to different outcomes. No, they are not the same, but, yes, they do have a correlation.

Again, I take you back to the example of Asians achieving better outcomes than whites. Unless you're arguing that their better outcomes are a result of racial bias in their favor, then you have to reach the conclusion that their better outcomes are a result of their different characteristics.

Arguing that "different groups should have similar outcomes, regardless of characteristics" is a baseless assertion, and not reflected within or between different racial/social groups.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There is a distinction that you have missed. Something existing in its own right (taxonomical species for example) is not the same as something existing as a social construct (the sociological concept of race for example).

A rat will always be a rat regardless of any social construct. But a Caucasian will only be a Caucasian for as long as society defines it as one. Take away the social construct, and there is nothing there; it is an empty "existence" that has no real substance. Unlike a species, a "race" is something that can be changed. Changed simply by thinking about it differently.

When you think of a "rat" you are indeed thinking of something that exists externally to your own thoughts...but you cannot access that which exists externally, you can only access the idea of a rat which you have created in your mind.

I promise you, it's something I considered before I wrote my previous post. Social constructs exist.


"...had several courses". I guess that settles it then.

You know, it's funny that whenever someone criticizes someone else's understanding of a subject online...oftentimes, that person won't state their credentials for fear of looking foolish.

I'm not worried about that though. You're total inability to even remotely explain why I've misunderstood "statistics"...not to mention the fect you haven't presented any...gives me plenty of reason to believe it's not me who has difficulty with statistics.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Lol yeah...I know what spurious correlations are...thanks. We aren't talking about nuclear energy and swimming pools though...I said there was a correlation between how blacks spend their money and how much wealth they have. You said that any correlation between the two wasn't "causal".

What exactly would you need me to show you to prove that the correlation is causal? Do you actually need me to show you that people who spend less of their money and save more of it are wealthier? I didn't just take some courses on statistics, green, I also took a course on finance lol.
 
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greenguzzi

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You know, it's funny that whenever someone criticizes someone else's understanding of a subject online...oftentimes, that person won't state their credentials for fear of looking foolish.
I have no fear of such things. I simply wanted to avoid a p*ssing contest.
I am pretty sure I have never attended the courses that you have. However there is a difference between having done a course on something, and relying on that thing in ones job.
 
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greenguzzi

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Not only do certain Asian groups perform better academically, but they have better life outcomes (if we're using the metric that higher income = better outcome). Certain characteristics (such as promotion of a work ethic, or, conversely, a culture which does not place emphasis on work ethic) will have a strong correlation to outcomes.
Thank you for that! I need more time to process. Chat soon.
 
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greenguzzi

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I also took a course on finance lol.
I took a course on "playing the ukulele", but I'm not a musician.
I'd recommend doing a course on the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I took a course on "playing the ukulele", but I'm not a musician.
I'd recommend doing a course on the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Is that a vague attempt at an insult?

If you want to call me stupid...grow a pair and call me stupid. You're the one who's claiming there's no causal relationship between saving money and personal wealth.
 
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Paidiske

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I'm not entirely "on your side" here, Ana. I'm saying sure, on average, if you've got two otherwise identical people, one of whom saves and the other doesn't, the first will be wealthier over time.

But I'm arguing that the groups you say have outcomes driven by saving/not saving, in fact, are not otherwise identical and have other bigger reasons for those different outcomes; reasons we can and should be addressing.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not entirely "on your side" here, Ana. I'm saying sure, on average, if you've got two otherwise identical people, one of whom saves and the other doesn't, the first will be wealthier over time.

But I'm arguing that the groups you say have outcomes driven by saving/not saving, in fact, are not otherwise identical and have other bigger reasons for those different outcomes; reasons we can and should be addressing.


Sure...but you do realize that the statistic I cited regarding blacks spending on average 30% more of their income than any other groups...they're looking at groups across equivalent income levels?

I'd redirect you to a good YouTube video on the topic by a young black american man...but unfortunately it doesn't pass the language rules.
 
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Paidiske

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Then that doesn't answer why African Americans experience disproportionate poverty, does it? If they're comparing African Americans with European Americans at equivalent poverty level, what put them there in the first place?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Then that doesn't answer why African Americans experience disproportionate poverty, does it?

I would think it does...at least in part.


If they're comparing African Americans with European Americans at equivalent poverty level, what put them there in the first place?

Take your pick? I suspect you'll find a rather wide range of reasons.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Then that doesn't answer why African Americans experience disproportionate poverty, does it? If they're comparing African Americans with European Americans at equivalent poverty level, what put them there in the first place?

Ask yourself this....

If tomorrow all the asians in the U.S. decided to spend 25% of their income...and obviously save less...

Would expect to see more in poverty in 10 years?

20 years?

30?
 
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Paidiske

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Depends. What are they spending on?

If, for example, they're investing in education (to play into a stereotype) we might expect the reverse to be true.

Wealth creation is about so much more than saving (or not).
 
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Ana the Ist

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Depends. What are they spending on?

If, for example, they're investing in education (to play into a stereotype) we might expect the reverse to be true.

Wealth creation is about so much more than saving (or not).

Sure...but if we're going to play into stereotypes, let's play into stereotypes...

Suppose they were spending it on expensive jewelry, designer clothes, and large expensive cars (appearance based products)....what then?
 
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Paidiske

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Again depends. You can't take these things, slice them up, and analyse them in isolation.

For example, I might buy expensive jewellery and clothes, but use them as tools to further my career (well, not my career, obviously, but another hypothetical career).

What I see you doing is saying, "Well, these people spend money on worthless stuff, and then the outcome that they have worse outcomes is hardly surprising."

And I want to challenge that with all sorts of questions:

- what else is affecting financial outcomes (education, employment opportunity, etc)?
- what are they actually spending on?
- what drives those spending habits? (For eg. if a black woman spends more money on how she appears, is it in part an attempt to compensate for poor treatment for being black, by - in effect - "buying" better treatment by at least being perceived as a more wealthy (and therefore "worthy") black person?)

And so on. It seems to me you just want to blame poor black people for being that way, instead of asking how and why they got there, and how that can change.
 
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