Miraculous Creationism

Razare

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After you have seen miracles of God in your life and others, miraculous creationism makes a lot more sense.

If God can heal a blind man instantly, it's no more difficult to do that impossible thing than to create the universe which is likewise impossible. In fact, creating the universe might be easier because there wasn't man yet scoffing on Earth saying God couldn't possibly do such a thing.

Scientifically, there are plenty of miracles which transpire that are simply "impossible". Certainly God could have construed a remarkable series of events to permeate through the laws of nature from the beginnings of history to cause the miracle, but after you realize how many miracles happen, and how some are conditional based upon repentance (King Hezekiah), we then realize most miracles will only happen as a result of our choices relative to our prayers. And without the prayer, the miracle will not occur... thus revealing a principle outside natural law of the universe.

I own an academic compendium recently written, cataloging the accounts of historical and modern day miracles, and also proving the point that miracles are common to the modern day human experience, despite a western assumption this is not so. It has hundreds or maybe thousands cataloged, with various degrees of evidences. Some with medical reports, or some word of mouth accounts.

Understanding this is important for creationism because it causes us to realize, that man could be made instantly. God can reform and heal our deformities in an instant. At which juncture, an evolutionary process is not required by God, nor is it logical to conclude that this is what happened given the evidences of miracles.

"God can heal us instantly of physical deformities and ailments, but God certainly had to evolve us to create us!" It's nonsense logically.

But I think people go to that argument because they are simply unaware miracles happen, and they don't believe in them or something like this. Perhaps they think it was a momentary thing that happened when Christ lived?

But if you're going to accept the miracles surrounding Christ, then you have to accept the ones that happened before and after in scripture. Even a preterist who chops miracles off at 70 AD, you still have the issue that miracles happened in scripture prior to that time and so using intelligent design evolution doesn't make much sense in the face of the miraculous.

From my viewpoint evolutionary viewpoints are just a high degree of unbelief. I would wager most people who believe this mindset have not received many miracles in their life.

Keep in mind, I believed in Darwin's evolution for a good 15 years. When I became a Christian I studied evolution some, and began to reject it because I trusted God's word more than the world's lies they invent. "Lie to me once, lie to me twice," was the crystal clear accurate reasoning I applied. God doesn't lie however, despite the people who teach he does (the ignorant). And yet, knowing it from scripture was insufficient to explain to the world for apologetics. They didn't believe the Bible.

So I prayed to God to show me why Darwin's evolution is false from logical reasoning, and proven false by what we already know.

God led me to information theory and rules of logic in computerized information systems. These rules, combined with all attempts at computer modeling of the evolutionary process have disproved Darwin's version of evolution. Random mutation + natural selection is an insufficient mechanism for mathematical reasons. I learned this from information theory and explanations I found online which correlated to my knowledge in programming I had learned previously.

The simplest explanation is found on page 194 of the "Devil's Delusion" written by David Berlinski. So what I had learned had been scientific fact since the 60's and 70's when a mathematical biologist had proven some of these rules concerning DNA.

The intellectual coherency of evolution died then some 40+ years ago. Society itself now believes a religion called evolution. Their priests are professors who abandon proven fact, in place of superstition and ignorance. They can certainly believe in evolution if they blind themselves to all the facts which prove it to be a 100% untenable position.

But since it was false all along, why bother to dilute creationism into intelligent design evolution? If evolution were the lie from Day 1, and it's been a false thing all the time since then, and is 100% false now, ... why even bother to dilute creationism into something besides the miraculous?

I don't personally. I believe it isn't true for one, and then to try and mix doctrines with the world is just to try and placate it so they like you more... winning the praise of men, rather than the praise of God.
 

Hoghead1

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After you have seen miracles of God in your life and others, miraculous creationism makes a lot more sense.

If God can heal a blind man instantly, it's no more difficult to do that impossible thing than to create the universe which is likewise impossible. In fact, creating the universe might be easier because there wasn't man yet scoffing on Earth saying God couldn't possibly do such a thing.

Scientifically, there are plenty of miracles which transpire that are simply "impossible". Certainly God could have construed a remarkable series of events to permeate through the laws of nature from the beginnings of history to cause the miracle, but after you realize how many miracles happen, and how some are conditional based upon repentance (King Hezekiah), we then realize most miracles will only happen as a result of our choices relative to our prayers. And without the prayer, the miracle will not occur... thus revealing a principle outside natural law of the universe.

I own an academic compendium recently written, cataloging the accounts of historical and modern day miracles, and also proving the point that miracles are common to the modern day human experience, despite a western assumption this is not so. It has hundreds or maybe thousands cataloged, with various degrees of evidences. Some with medical reports, or some word of mouth accounts.

Understanding this is important for creationism because it causes us to realize, that man could be made instantly. God can reform and heal our deformities in an instant. At which juncture, an evolutionary process is not required by God, nor is it logical to conclude that this is what happened given the evidences of miracles.

"God can heal us instantly of physical deformities and ailments, but God certainly had to evolve us to create us!" It's nonsense logically.

But I think people go to that argument because they are simply unaware miracles happen, and they don't believe in them or something like this. Perhaps they think it was a momentary thing that happened when Christ lived?

But if you're going to accept the miracles surrounding Christ, then you have to accept the ones that happened before and after in scripture. Even a preterist who chops miracles off at 70 AD, you still have the issue that miracles happened in scripture prior to that time and so using intelligent design evolution doesn't make much sense in the face of the miraculous.

From my viewpoint evolutionary viewpoints are just a high degree of unbelief. I would wager most people who believe this mindset have not received many miracles in their life.

Keep in mind, I believed in Darwin's evolution for a good 15 years. When I became a Christian I studied evolution some, and began to reject it because I trusted God's word more than the world's lies they invent. "Lie to me once, lie to me twice," was the crystal clear accurate reasoning I applied. God doesn't lie however, despite the people who teach he does (the ignorant). And yet, knowing it from scripture was insufficient to explain to the world for apologetics. They didn't believe the Bible.

So I prayed to God to show me why Darwin's evolution is false from logical reasoning, and proven false by what we already know.

God led me to information theory and rules of logic in computerized information systems. These rules, combined with all attempts at computer modeling of the evolutionary process have disproved Darwin's version of evolution. Random mutation + natural selection is an insufficient mechanism for mathematical reasons. I learned this from information theory and explanations I found online which correlated to my knowledge in programming I had learned previously.

The simplest explanation is found on page 194 of the "Devil's Delusion" written by David Berlinski. So what I had learned had been scientific fact since the 60's and 70's when a mathematical biologist had proven some of these rules concerning DNA.

The intellectual coherency of evolution died then some 40+ years ago. Society itself now believes a religion called evolution. Their priests are professors who abandon proven fact, in place of superstition and ignorance. They can certainly believe in evolution if they blind themselves to all the facts which prove it to be a 100% untenable position.

But since it was false all along, why bother to dilute creationism into intelligent design evolution? If evolution were the lie from Day 1, and it's been a false thing all the time since then, and is 100% false now, ... why even bother to dilute creationism into something besides the miraculous?

I don't personally. I believe it isn't true for one, and then to try and mix doctrines with the world is just to try and placate it so they like you more... winning the praise of men, rather than the praise of God.
The question of miracles is beside the point here. That is not the issue at all. The issue is what is the natural order and how does God work in and through it. Supernatural or paranormal events are a whole other issue. Also, many biblical accounts of events do not resort to miracles to explain them. The rest of your post seemed largely inflammatory rhetoric rather than a carefully reasoned argument. Apparently your goal is to cast aspersion on the character of any fellow Christians who do not share your views. That is a big no-no here.
 
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Razare

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Apparently your goal is to cast aspersion on the character of any fellow Christians who do not share your views. That is a big no-no here.

If a Christian doctrine rejects God's word, then yes, yes, I do not agree.

Miracles was one way to approach the issue of the integrity of God's word.

My beef is not with Christians. I love Christians. When I argue and debate, I argue against thoughts, reasonings, and beliefs which oppose God.

And if a person thinks this argues against them, then that just means they've wrapped themselves so much up in the belief that they take it personally.

For example, when I said, "the ignorant".

I too was ignorant. I have been ignorant many times about many things. Thankfully, I didn't remain ignorant about some things and God's word was able to get through to me and bless me.

But if I held as an ideal and belief, that "I can't ever believe someone who slaps me up side the face with what they're saying, because it might offend me or I might disagree!" Then what am I glorifying?

I'm glorifying, "Let's all get along, let's not care about what the truth is, because appeasing ourselves among ourselves is our god."

Now if someone wants to come in here, debate me and put me in my place on scripture, I'm more than receptive.

But you're quite right, I hate evolutionary mindsets. I hate them with a passion. It blasphemes God, and since I love God, those thoughts from the devil, don't give me endearing warm fuzzy feelings. But it's not about the person, it's about the concept.

PS - Also, don't think my harshness accuses anyone of "not being Christian". Nah, I believed in evolution for the first few months of my Christianity. I was saved, born again and everything. God doesn't require science majors, just a heart which receives the holy spirit by covenant in Christ.
 
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joshua 1 9

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After you have seen miracles of God in your life and others, miraculous creationism makes a lot more sense.
I have seen lots of miracles in my life and none of them violate the natural laws. In fact miracles restore everything to the way God intended for them to be. Theistic Evolution is an attempt to understand the natural laws and how God Creates the world we live in. People get confused by the word: Deterministic but it means that God has a plan and an objective. Atheistic evolution says that everything is random and unpredictable and that simply is not supported by any sort of evidence at all. In fact the scientific evidence testifies against atheistic evolution. All of Science is a witness and a testimony for God.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom1:19

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1
 
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7trees

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The question of miracles is beside the point here. That is not the issue at all. The issue is what is the natural order and how does God work in and through it. Supernatural or paranormal events are a whole other issue. Also, many biblical accounts of events do not resort to miracles to explain them. The rest of your post seemed largely inflammatory rhetoric rather than a carefully reasoned argument. Apparently your goal is to cast aspersion on the character of any fellow Christians who do not share your views. That is a big no-no here.
The simple point that a miracle is an act of 'special creation' is exactly the point- especially since Genesis is largely a collection of miracles. If you believe Jesus turned water to wine you believe God did an act of special creation. If you have been healed materially today- as many Christians have you have received an act of special creation. These modern miracles testify to the special creation 'reported' in Genesis...
 
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Papias

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If God can heal a blind man instantly, it's no more difficult to do that impossible thing than to create the universe which is likewise impossible.

Of course it's not hard for God to create the Universe - whether that is by poofing it into existence or using evolution, or any other means. If if you really think that the main objection Christians have to creationism is that miracles are "impossible", then I don't think you understand theistic evolution (or even the nature of this Christians-only subforum).

No. Most of us fully agree that God was (is!) able to create that way. The question is how God created - was it by breaking his own natural laws, or by using them?

It's similar to the question of how the Jews got out of Egypt. Did they get out by flying on the backs of giant eagles (as it literally says in Exodus 19:4)? Or was it some other way? In any question like that, we need to remember that other passages of scripture are important, as is all of God's word - which also includes God's revelation in the natural world itself. We all agree that God did the creating, just as we all agree that it was God who acted for the Jews.

Genesis is clearly elevated prose - not just a descriptive history and the natural world shows a clear record of evolution, affirmed by many different fields of study, by Christians the world over. For God to make that - if it's not how he created, he'd be lying to us. That doesn't seem likely to me - though of course Christians can each make their own decisions. That's probably a lot of the reason that most Christians are in churches that either actively teach evolution or point out that evolution is in agreement with the scripture.

In Jesus' name-

Papias
 
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pat34lee

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the natural world shows a clear record of evolution, affirmed by many different fields of study, by Christians the world over.

On the contrary, evolution and old-earth beliefs are contradicted
by most natural laws.

The big bang is impossible, getting everything from nothing.
Stellar formation from gases is impossible.
Planetary formation from dust is impossible.
Life from non-life is impossible.
Complexity from chaos without design is impossible
And -
if you believe in the gap theory:
Anything that could destroy the earth so thoroughly
to make God reform it would wipe out all the fossils.
 
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Papias

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Hmm..... Not sure where to start.

First - this is getting off topic. The thread is about the fact that God can perform miracles and how that is related to evolution.

Second - All of that is could be seen as places where God assisted the process, without contradicting the overall history of common descent and evolution with modification.

Third-
Just to get this out of the way:

if you believe in the gap theory:
Anything that could destroy the earth so thoroughly
to make God reform it would wipe out all the fossils.

Right. I agree that gap theory (depending on which one you mean) is meritless.

Fourth- Nearly all of these are simply a statement of the fallacious argument from incredulity. It goes like this: "Because I don't understand X, it must be impossible!"

X= The big bang, stellar formation, planetary formation, abiogenesis, etc.

Fifth- wow, what a bunch of demonstrably false statements. Maybe this is getting off topic, but these are so obvious that it's worth mentioning.

On the contrary, evolution and old-earth beliefs are contradicted
by most natural laws.
..... which is why practically all scientists (including millions who are Christians) affirm both evolution and an old earth, right? OK, which "natural laws" are you thinking of?

Stellar formation from gases is impossible.

wrong. Stellar formation from gases is well understood based on simple math. Gravitational calculations have long shown how it works. Here is some history of that subject: http://www.teachastronomy.com/astropedia/article/Star-Formation

Planetary formation from dust is impossible.

Wrong. As before, this is simple math using the gravity equation and computer models. Here are some learning resources: http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/discovering_planets_beyond/how-do-planets-form
and a video of recent confirmation:

Life from non-life is impossible.

Of the many routes investigated, very few are "impossible". Many do contain areas where we don't know what processes happened, but that's not in any way to say that they are "impossible". That again shows your textbook example of the argument from incredulity fallacy.

If you prefer, I think a reasonable Christian position is that God poofed the first cell into existence, letting evolution take it from there. Reasonable - yes, but good, no. After all, that's just the same god of the gaps argument that gives a continually shrinking god and stifles our investigation of His creation.

Complexity from chaos without design is impossible

False. Complexity from chaos happens all the time. Take a look at the highly complex circulation patterns of a hurricane, for instance. Design? Of course not. Or do you think God is poofing each hurricane into existence?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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pat34lee

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Hmm..... Not sure where to start.

Gravity. Strong or weak force? How could
such a pitifully weak force gather together
gases in space which are moving apart at
nearly the speed of light? Much less, how
does it cause enough gravity with only
hydrogen and some helium to cause a star
to form? Remember, pressure causes heat
which makes the atoms more actively push
apart from each other. No mathematics
magic can fix this in the physical universe.
http://www.ldolphin.org/stars.html

Just to let you know I didn't ignore your
star formation link:

"Gravity pulls all the atoms in a cloud inward. "

Toward what? There is no heavy center, just
other atoms in all directions. Again, see above.
 
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pat34lee

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False. Complexity from chaos happens all the time. Take a look at the highly complex circulation patterns of a hurricane, for instance. Design? Of course not. Or do you think God is poofing each hurricane into existence?

In Christ-

Papias

Actually, like gems and snowflakes, a hurricane
seeks the path of least resistance. From low to
high entropy. Following patterns is not the same
as increasing complexity.
 
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-57

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Theistic Evolution is an attempt to understand the natural laws and how God Creates the world we live in.

Genesis tells us how God reated the world inwhich we live in. Thiestic Evolutionism tells us Genesis is wrong. It didn't happen that way. God didn't form Eve from Adams rib....God used evolutionism instead to bring about women.
The fall in Genesis didn't happen the was it is written.....

BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM...

The Theo-Evos still can't explain where original sin came from. The bible can, but they can't.
 
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-57

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False. Complexity from chaos happens all the time. Take a look at the highly complex circulation patterns of a hurricane, for instance. Design? Of course not. Or do you think God is poofing each hurricane into existence?

A hurricane is a long way in complexity from this:
motorprotein.jpg
 
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-57

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Of course it's not hard for God to create the Universe - whether that is by poofing it into existence or using evolution, or any other means.

That would be a true statement.


BUT...the bible says God didn't use evolutionism. Read the opening chapters of Genesis.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Genesis tells us how God reated the world in which we live in. Thiestic Evolutionism tells us Genesis is wrong.
I do not see any conflict between Science and the Bible. I have said that may times here on this forum. If people see a conflict then they either do not understand science or they do not understand the Bible.
90f8897ff96dc253cb67c9b73303dc20.jpg
 
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-57

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I do not see any conflict between Science and the Bible. I have said that may times here on this forum. If people see a conflict then they either do not understand science or they do not understand the Bible.
90f8897ff96dc253cb67c9b73303dc20.jpg

Tell us....how is making the first female from a males side...evolutionism? How is that not a conflict?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Tell us....how is making the first female from a males side...evolutionism? How is that not a conflict?
When you see the word "Therefore" you need to ask yourself the question of what is that word there for? We read in verse 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." We see that Eve was the first "wife" this was the beginning of marriage and monogamy. "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." Matthew 19:8 Mark then goes onto say: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” Mark 10:8 It would take a whole book to explain this. Many books have been written about marriage that do not even come close to talking about what marriage is really all about. If people understood the institute of marriage they would know that you can not have a same sex marriage, that is impossible.
 
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SkyWriting

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But since it was false all along, why bother to dilute creationism into intelligent design evolution? If evolution were the lie from Day 1, and it's been a false thing all the time since then, and is 100% false now, ... why even bother to dilute creationism into something besides the miraculous?I don't personally. I believe it isn't true for one, and then to try and mix doctrines with the world is just to try and placate it so they like you more... winning the praise of men, rather than the praise of God.

I "dilute" some Creationism with no intention to
win praise from anyone. I find that some Creationist
claims are not scripturally supported. Some are
well supported, but then amended by Creationist
radicals who blindly accept any Creationist as a
source of well researched commentary. Some of
it is very poorly researched, either scripturally
or scientifically.

For example most all Christian tenets are
well supported and documented.
10 Tenets of Biblical Christianity

"Young Earth" is not on the list because it has
no similar scriptural support from multiple
authors, written in multiple books, from various
points of view, spread over both testaments.
 
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SkyWriting

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Tell us....how is making the first female from a males side...evolutionism? How is that not a conflict?

Women are not offspring from males. They are a "side" or equal to the male sex.
 
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Jamsie

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That would be a true statement.
BUT...the bible says God didn't use evolutionism. Read the opening chapters of Genesis.

How, for instance, does "And God said, Let the land produce living creatures..." not cause one to approach Genesis with some critical delicacy? One would clearly notice that the command was to the land, not directly to creating living creatures...pointedly mediate creation.

As noted by Papias above it is not question of God's ability but of how he chose to create. As Chesterton wrote "for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially if, like the Christian God, he were outside time."
 
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