Miracles and Demographics

[mindlight]

34 of miracles of Jesus are recorded in the gospels and there are 15 general events described when Jesus healed a large but unspecified number of people. Given that Jesus healings seemed to be complete and included even genetic disorders did his healing of mainly Jewish people constitute a purifying of the genetic strength of the Jewish people. If so this may well explain their perseverance through the last 2000 years of affliction, their endurance through plagues and famines but also in part of hatred of them by those who lived shorter lives and who were less healthy. The effect of Jesus healings on the global population may well be exponential as the thousands he healed passed that genetic headstart onto future generations also. Many whom he healed like lepers could then rejoin the community, have families and descendants.

Noone ever talks about the physical repercussions of so many healings, but I wonder if these have been a factor in the perseverance pf the Jewish people and also the strength of the core church through the ages which largely originated from physical Jewish people scattered around the world. People who interbred with gentiles and whose genetic inheritance we may well all share in.

What do you think?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

What do you think?

You have no data on subject of any kind. There is no proof that Jesus did heavenly genetic engineering of any sort since miracles by definition need not to be bound by physical laws. Nor is there any reason to suspect that Jews would have better genetics because of undefined healing miracles 2000 years ago.

Just as easy to claim Jews were chosen people so God tweaked their genetics a bit. Which frankly sounds bit silly.

 

[mindlight]

You have no data on subject of any kind. There is no proof that Jesus did heavenly genetic engineering of any sort since miracles by definition need not to be bound by physical laws. Nor is there any reason to suspect that Jews would have better genetics because of undefined healing miracles 2000 years ago.

Just as easy to claim Jews were chosen people so God tweaked their genetics a bit. Which frankly sounds bit silly.

With respect the evidence that Jesus performed miracles is pretty overwhelming from scripture and even from those who opposed him who called him "a magic worker".

Historically the Jews have persevered as a race through the 2000 years since Christ, despite massive affliction, while many other races have disappeared and they have re-established their home land.

During the Black Death Christians estimated that Jews died at half the rate of the surrounding population though this was probably more to do with better sanitary practices

The Black Death « Jewish History

Israeli deaths from covid-19 are only 45 per million which is about a tenth of American statistics for instance.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Ashkenazi Jews are particularly susceptible to certain genetic diseases, like Gaucher's, Tay-Sach's, etc., probably due to the centuries of inbreeding. Also, being a Mediterranean race, Sephardic Jews are susceptible to Thallasaemia as well, while also having more Tay-Sach's, Cystic fibrosis, etc. So Jewish genetic superiority is a bit hard to swallow - if anything, they are a cautionary tale against inbreeding, which limits the gene pool.

 

[mindlight]

Ashkenazi Jews are particularly susceptible to certain genetic diseases, like Gaucher's, Tay-Sach's, etc., probably due to the centuries of inbreeding. Also, being a Mediterranean race, Sephardic Jews are susceptible to Thallasaemia as well, while also having more Tay-Sach's, Cystic fibrosis, etc. So Jewish genetic superiority is a bit hard to swallow - if anything, they are a cautionary tale against inbreeding, which limits the gene pool.

True and I guess in practice we are talking about a matrix of factors.

Positively a genetic inheritance for some Jews cleaned up by Jesus miracles and good sanitary practices and an aversion to eating dangerous animals

versus

A greater tendency to die in various pogroms and persecutions and a genetic inheritance that has been jeopardised by inbreeding.

 

[Saint Steven]

34 of miracles of Jesus are recorded in the gospels and there are 15 general events described when Jesus healed a large but unspecified number of people. ...

Here's a side issue, somewhat off topic. As a reminder.
Jesus didn't heal anyone; (gasp) God did.

Jesus operated in his humanity, not in his deity, when performing the miracles of God. (Philippians 2:6-8)
Otherwise, how could he expect us to operate in miracles if he did them in his deity? (Matthew 10:8)

John 5:19-20
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

With respect the evidence that Jesus performed miracles is pretty overwhelming from scripture and even from those who opposed him who called him "a magic worker".

Scientific evidence if you talk about miracle genetics is flat zero.

And there are plenty of other groups of people that have survived and plenty of others that have not so this line of thought is nonproductive as well.

In no way or form is there a proof that Jews have survived as sociological group because of their divinely modified gene charts.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Scientific evidence if you talk about miracle genetics is flat zero.

OK it's lines like this that remind me I am reading from "The Controversial Theology" section.

 

[mindlight]

Scientific evidence if you talk about miracle genetics is flat zero.

And there are plenty of other groups of people that have survived and plenty of others that have not so this line of thought is nonproductive as well.

In no way or form is there a proof that Jews have survived as sociological group because of their divinely modified gene charts.

This is a theology forum and most of the discussions here are out of scope from scientific method which yields little of any value. Though the covid19 stats are real enough.

The preservation of the Jewish race was theologically essential pre Christ as it was from the genetic line of David that the Messiah would come. Since many of the prophecies of Revelation also refer to end time Jews ( eg 144000 are Jewish male virgins) there is a biblical expectation that the Jews will survive and indeed endure till Christ comes again. Historically despite repeated attempts to wipe them out in pogroms,holocausts and Arab wars they have endured. So why is it so far fetched to suggest that a part of Gods desire to preserve them was expressed in Jesus's healing miracles

 

[Saint Steven]

Though the covid19 stats are real enough.

Seriously?
The doctors are required to falsify records and they are incentivized to false diagnose and treat. The stats are false. There isn't even an accurate way to diagnose the Covid19 virus.

 

[Saint Steven]

Seriously?
The doctors are required to falsify records and they are incentivized to false diagnose and treat. The stats are false. There isn't even an accurate way to diagnose the Covid19 virus.

Londonreal.tv is a real eye-opener.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

This is a theology forum and most of the discussions here are out of scope from scientific method which yields little of any value.

Which is fine. If you had just remarked that God looked after the Jews and they survived because of that tender loving care I am fine with it.

But when you have take science in (like genetics in this instance) then it is no longer just theology.

Usually this goes downhill fast when people try to twist the Bible to fit scientific theories that usually work out unintentionally hilarious.

Like some creationist explained spacing of dinosaur eggs on some fossil find with the fact that dinosaur had been running from the flood so of course the eggs were paced like just so.

/facepalm.

If it is a miracle then it is. Saying it is a miracle that affected genetics is something were the burden of proof is on you and as mentioned that evidence is nowhere to be found.

 

[mindlight]

Which is fine. If you had just remarked that God looked after the Jews and they survived because of that tender loving care I am fine with it.

But when you have take science in (like genetics in this instance) then it is no longer just theology.

Usually this goes downhill fast when people try to twist the Bible to fit scientific theories that usually work out unintentionally hilarious.

Like some creationist explained spacing of dinosaur eggs on some fossil find with the fact that dinosaur had been running from the flood so of course the eggs were paced like just so.

/facepalm.

If it is a miracle then it is. Saying it is a miracle that affected genetics is something were the burden of proof is on you and as mentioned that evidence is nowhere to be found.

Ok you are not being logical and are clearly allowing creation - evolution arguments cloud your logic.

Let me break this down logically and you tell me which of 6 premises below you reject.

Premises you appear to accept or should accept if you are being consistent:

A) Jesus performed miracles including the complete healing of people with genetic disorders

B) Scientifically we know that a great many defects are passed down from generation to generation to generation. Somebody cannot pass down something they do not have

C) We know from scripture that Jesus healed thousands of mainly Jewish sick people.

D) Jesus had no need to heal healthy people

E) The Jewish population in Israel could not have been more than 1-2 million at the time of Jesus.

F) The bible says that Jews will still exist at the end of time and indeed will serve important purposes in Gods end plan.

Given the above why can't Jesus healings be seen as a part of Gods plan to ensure the survival of the Jews as a genetic people.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Given the above why can't Jesus healings be seen as a part of Gods plan to ensure the survival of the Jews as a genetic people.

There are no “genetic” Jews.

Jews are ethnoreligious group.

Which basically just means they are ethnic group

“An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of presumed similarities such as a common language, ancestry, history, society, culture, nation, race or social treatment within their residing area.”

that share a religion.

No religion is defined by their members genetic makeup.

This sounds like something you would read in Mein Kampf.

Anyways for the logic part.

Yes, if Jesus miracle healed someone that had genetic defect and that lucky soul got healthy offspring later then logically some of those descendants could have survived or not.

Since the Bible never mentions this being a motive for healing anyone this is more likely to be just idle conjecture .

 

[mindlight]

There are no “genetic” Jews.

Jews are ethnoreligious group.

Which basically just means they are ethnic group

“An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of presumed similarities such as a common language, ancestry, history, society, culture, nation, race or social treatment within their residing area.”

that share a religion.

No religion is defined by their members genetic makeup.

This sounds like something you would read in Mein Kampf.

Anyways for the logic part.

Yes, if Jesus miracle healed someone that had genetic defect and that lucky soul got healthy offspring later then logically some of those descendants could have survived or not.

Since the Bible never mentions this being a motive for healing anyone this is more likely to be just idle conjecture .

Read the genealogies in the gospels of Matthew and Luke and the tell me that genetic inheritance/ genealogy does not matter. It was Gods purpose that Jesus have David as a human ancestor. We buy into the political correctness of our day relating to race too easily. The scriptures are clear that race / ancestry matters.