Minneapolis Denied Federal Aid

Ana the Ist

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Minneapolis apparently tried to ask the rest of the nation to foot the bill for the destruction of its city.

George Floyd: Feds deny Minnesota request for aid to rebuild

The federal government has denied a request from Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz for federal funds to rebuild and repair fire damage from the unrest that followed George Floyd’s death.

How much damage was done?

A preliminary assessment of damage found more than $15 million of damages directly related to the fires. Around 1,500 businesses were damaged. Among the public structures destroyed was a Minneapolis police station that was a focus of the protests.

Current estimates of the total damage exceed $500 million, the governor wrote in his disaster aid request.

If I recall correctly, aid was offered during the riots....in the form of the National Guard.

I'm sure I correctly recall Minneapolis leaders agreeing to defund the police. They can use that money to try to repair their devastated city. It's pretty ridiculous to support this kind of destruction when it happens, blame the police who were trying to stop or contain it, and then turn around and ask the rest of the nation to foot the bill for the destruction they allowed. This isn't some earthquake or hurricane or drought....the people of Minneapolis did this. All the while they made excuses about how "businesses can be rebuilt but lives are lost forever". They should be the ones to pay for it.

You reap what you sow.

Thoughts?
 

bekkilyn

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While I don't at all have issues with people protesting and standing up for justice issues, when it comes to destruction, I'm in the "you break it, you buy it" category.
 
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chevyontheriver

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If I recall correctly, aid was offered during the riots....in the form of the National Guard.
Actually the Minnesota National Guard was fully deployed. Not sure what day that was or what the rules of engagement were. But they were called up by governor Walz.

Trump had offered I think military police, maybe from the National Guard of other states or maybe from the military. That offer was not accepted by governor Walz. In hindsight it may have been wise to accept some of that aid.

My impression was that it was mostly the Minneapolis police that held back while the city burned, either out of fear or by orders. I know the fire department held back until they had National Guard escorts.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Actually the Minnesota National Guard was fully deployed. Not sure what day that was or what the rules of engagement were. But they were called up by governor Walz.

This is important. The Minn. Nat. Guard is *under the control* of the governor of Minnesota. The president *can't* offer the Minn. Nat. Guard to the governor of Minn. since the governor is already in control of them.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Minneapolis apparently tried to ask the rest of the nation to foot the bill for the destruction of its city.

George Floyd: Feds deny Minnesota request for aid to rebuild

How much damage was done?



If I recall correctly, aid was offered during the riots....in the form of the National Guard.

I'm sure I correctly recall Minneapolis leaders agreeing to defund the police. They can use that money to try to repair their devastated city. It's pretty ridiculous to support this kind of destruction when it happens, blame the police who were trying to stop or contain it, and then turn around and ask the rest of the nation to foot the bill for the destruction they allowed. This isn't some earthquake or hurricane or drought....the people of Minneapolis did this. All the while they made excuses about how "businesses can be rebuilt but lives are lost forever". They should be the ones to pay for it.

You reap what you sow.

Thoughts?

I wonder if such attitudes will be taken when deciding on whether or not to dole out covid aid to red states that refused to implement stringent safety protocols.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Actually the Minnesota National Guard was fully deployed. Not sure what day that was or what the rules of engagement were. But they were called up by governor Walz.

Fully deployed? I remember reading that about 500 members were deployed in Minneapolis....I could be wrong though. I also remember reading a long breakdown of their activities that made it sound like they were given almost no plan of action. I don't know if that's deliberate or just a result of poor leadership by the city/mayor/governor.


Trump had offered I think military police, maybe from the National Guard of other states or maybe from the military. That offer was not accepted by governor Walz. In hindsight it may have been wise to accept some of that aid.

It might have. It really depends. I think Walz understands he messed up...I don't think he understands how though. The earliest thing I remember him saying was his finger pointing at "out of state" agitators, white supremacists, foreign disruptors....basically an attempt to deflect from the reality that the people of Minneapolis were to blame.

My impression was that it was mostly the Minneapolis police that held back while the city burned, either out of fear or by orders. I know the fire department held back until they had National Guard escorts.

Well....

I'm sure fear played a part of it....not just the fear of being hurt or killed but the fear of losing your job for using force. It's pretty hard to stop a riot without any use of force...and basically everything the police did do was heavily criticized. It didn't matter if the means were non-lethal, tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray or whatever.....police were being scapegoated.

I think the biggest factors were the media portrayal and covid economic insecurity. People are struggling right now...and frustrations boiled over. Looting probably looked like a good idea to a lot of people without jobs or incomes.

The media portrayal was downright disgusting though. Early on...the rioting and looting and protests were portrayed as the same group of people righteously taking out their anger on an abusive state. When people started dying and black owned businesses burned...the media shifted stances to make it sound like there were a few bad actors who were taking advantage of the peaceful protests.

In reality, if you're throwing bottles at police....that's a riot. If you're surrounding a police station and impeding emergency services....that's a riot. If you're marching with a crowd of hundreds or thousands on one street....and the next street over they're looting a Target, that's a riot. If your "protest" is enabling the widespread destruction of your city....you're to blame.

1500 businesses and over half a billion dollars in damage isn't small. Minneapolis simply didn't have enough police or firefighters or national guards on the ground to contain it....and the police were basically the targets of the people in the streets all the way up to the politicians.

Like I said, they intend to defund the police and invest in the community...they can use that money. There's a non-profit called the Minnesota Freedom Fund that has about 30 million dollars that they don't know what to do with. It was donated by people across the nation to bail out these looters and rioters...they can spend that money rebuilding the businesses that got looted and burned. You have all these celebrities willing to donate their money to the people who did the damage...they can donate to repair the damage. I'm fine with all of that.

What I find ridiculous is that they are willing to ransack their own city....blame it all on the police and the government and the "system"....and when it's all over, ask that same "system" to fix everything they broke.

It's like a spoiled child breaking his Nintendo because he really wanted a fancy new PS4....then when he calms down he begs his parents to buy him a new Nintendo. That's just gonna send the wrong message....that you can get whatever you want by throwing a tantrum, and you don't have to live with the consequences.

They broke it, they can buy it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I wonder if such attitudes will be taken when deciding on whether or not to dole out covid aid to red states that refused to implement stringent safety protocols.

Implement how? With the police?

I don't know if you know this....but the left doesn't want to see the police enforcing laws anymore. They actually make racial exemptions to wearing masks and gathering in large groups. I don't see how you can blame the red states for what the blue states won't do.

Besides....we aren't talking about a natural disaster....these people did the damage to themselves.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This is important. The Minn. Nat. Guard is *under the control* of the governor of Minnesota. The president *can't* offer the Minn. Nat. Guard to the governor of Minn. since the governor is already in control of them.
Yes. However the president offered ADDITIONAL soldiers beyond the fully deployed Minnesota National Guard.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Fully deployed? I remember reading that about 500 members were deployed in Minneapolis....I could be wrong though. I also remember reading a long breakdown of their activities that made it sound like they were given almost no plan of action. I don't know if that's deliberate or just a result of poor leadership by the city/mayor/governor.
They were deployed at about 1500. Some of that would have been deployed around the capitol and in other cities in the state, which had their own protests that were tending to riotous. And they had to deploy in shifts, the afternoon shift and the night shift. So 500 at any time in Minneapolis may have been right.

I have no idea what the rules of engagement were.

As to the political failures I can only speculate ... but I won't right now.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Implement how? With the police?

I don't know if you know this....but the left doesn't want to see the police enforcing laws anymore. They actually make racial exemptions to wearing masks and gathering in large groups. I don't see how you can blame the red states for what the blue states won't do.

Besides....we aren't talking about a natural disaster....these people did the damage to themselves.

Most large scale tragedies, even ones triggered by natural causes, have at least some human factors aggravating the impact.

To be clear, I don’t particularly care that MN isn’t getting federal aid - in fact, since it’s arguably the local and state governments causing the problems that led to the riots, I’m more than happy to see the taxpayers who elected those governments foot the bill for everything. However, unless there are some clear guidelines and requirements for federal disaster aid that MN just failed to meet (and that weren’t described by the article), it wouldn’t surprise me to see a different, more generous approach taken towards riots in a red state with a more “law and order” leadership.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Most large scale tragedies, even ones triggered by natural causes, have at least some human factors aggravating the impact.

I'm not sure what you're saying here....

People can run from a hurricane...but they can't magically keep it from destroying their house. That's not a choice they get to make.

The people of Minneapolis chose to loot, riot, and burn down businesses. This is damage they could have avoided entirely .

Surely you're aware that many cities and towns saw no widespread destruction or damage during the exact same period?

To be clear, I don’t particularly care that MN isn’t getting federal aid - in fact, since it’s arguably the local and state governments causing the problems that led to the riots, I’m more than happy to see the taxpayers who elected those governments foot the bill for everything. However, unless there are some clear guidelines and requirements for federal disaster aid that MN just failed to meet (and that weren’t described by the article), it wouldn’t surprise me to see a different, more generous approach taken towards riots in a red state with a more “law and order” leadership.

That's awfully cynical. I don't know who approves these things...whether it's a appointment or committee of senators or something. I certainly don't know of any reason to suspect that aid gets withheld by political bias.

I'm not even really mad at the politicians either. The mayor is barely 2 years old, right? Didn't he run on a progressive "reform the police" agenda? I don't think the guy even held office before...so it's probably expecting too much of him to think he'd do what was necessary or tell the people what they needed to hear.

It's more the principle of the thing. There's a video that captured the sentiment of it all titled "How can we win" by a Kimberly Jones. I can't link it, there's a little language, and there's a lot to unpack...but the tone and sentiment echoed a lot of what I was hearing at the time. The idea that there's some moral righteousness to all the damage done. It was even echoed by posters here.

It's both hypocritical and ironic to ask for everyone else to foot the bill....to try and tear down the system and then come begging for a handout from the same system. It's not unlike the Ayn Rand group getting that government loan. In this case though, it's a bit like being pro-nuclear warfare but anti-radioactive fallout lol.

I don't just feel this way about Minneapolis either...any of these places where the people saw it fit to pillage should get the same response.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I'm not sure what you're saying here....

People can run from a hurricane...but they can't magically keep it from destroying their house. That's not a choice they get to make.

The people of Minneapolis chose to loot, riot, and burn down businesses. This is damage they could have avoided entirely .

Surely you're aware that many cities and towns saw no widespread destruction or damage during the exact same period?

People build in flood plains. They build on unstable shorelines or slopes. They build on fault lines or in areas prone to wildfires. They eschew maintenance of dams. Bad things happen; human activity makes them worse and the federal government often swoops in with big checks to pay for it. Federal taxes pay for superfund cleanup and for restoration of beach erosion, both of which are entirely driven by human activity. Covering the bill for a civil rights riot doesn’t strike me as being substantially different from paying for new sand to protect an overbuilt beach.

That's awfully cynical. I don't know who approves these things...whether it's a appointment or committee of senators or something.

Sounds like it’s a unilateral decision by the president:
https://www.fema.gov/pdf/media/factsheets/dad_disaster_declaration.pdf

I certainly don't know of any reason to suspect that aid gets withheld by political bias.

Other than the fact that Trump has threatened to do just that on numerous occasions?
 
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Radagast

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Covering the bill for a civil rights riot doesn’t strike me as being substantially different from paying for new sand to protect an overbuilt beach

It worries me that you call $500,000,00 of wanton destruction a "civil rights riot."
 
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Ana the Ist

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People build in flood plains. They build on unstable shorelines or slopes. They build on fault lines or in areas prone to wildfires.

These are all acts of nature...nobody chooses to have a flood. If the risk is there though, insurance is typically available.

That said, I've actually argued that if climate change has significantly altered the likelihood of a hurricane (for example) annihilating one's home...there should be a limit to the number of times one can receive benefits.

They eschew maintenance of dams.

That sounds like cause for a lawsuit.

Bad things happen; human activity makes them worse and the federal government often swoops in with big checks to pay for it.

This isn't an act of nature though. If I burn down my house....how entitled would I have to be to expect my neighbors to pay for a new house for me?

Federal taxes pay for superfund cleanup and for restoration of beach erosion, both of which are entirely driven by human activity.

I can't say I know enough about beach erosion to comment.

Covering the bill for a civil rights riot doesn’t strike me as being substantially different from paying for new sand to protect an overbuilt beach.

A civil rights riot?

The first amendment guarantees the right to peaceably assemble. It doesn't give anyone a right to riot. In fact, the damage done to those 1500 businesses was entirely illegal. I'm not even sure what civil rights you're referring to. We actually have equality under the law (well...California recently opted out of that) but just like everything else in life....it's never going to be perfect.

What the people responsible are entitled to is a fair trial....and I suspect that in a great many of those cases, the responsible parties are being let off the hook.

I think not throwing a bunch of guilty people in jail for arson, looting, and destruction of property is rather generous given the circumstances.


Sounds like it’s a unilateral decision by the president:
https://www.fema.gov/pdf/media/factsheets/dad_disaster_declaration.pdf

Well....if that's the correct information....it seems there's 2 types of emergencies which can be considered. There's a natural disaster (hurricanes and the like) which, like you said, only seems to require the president's approval. The other type of emergency listed this requirement at the bottom...

The total amount of assistance provided for a single emergency may not exceed $5 million. If this amount is exceeded, the President shall report to Congress.

So it seems that if we're talking about a man made disaster which exceeds 5 million in damages....Congress has some say in the matter. This makes sense...I recall the president trying to declare the crisis at the border an emergency and getting denied by Congress for about 6 months or so. I still don't know if it's a full vote or committee or what though.

Given that FEMAs budget is only 18 billion and we already have covid to deal with...it's really no surprise that Congress isn't jumping at the opportunity to pay for this. Besides, there seems to be a requirement for a plan to deal with the disaster....and frankly, I don't think most of the local administrations are willing to stand up to the public.
 
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