Minimal beliefs for Christian

[mkgal1]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my post that you quoted. I didn't talk about hell or penal substitution or anything like that, and I'm not interested in such topics, as there's nothing about hell in the Creed that forms the basic outline of the Christian faith.

I edited my post to point out that I was responding to what was shared from GotQuestions, and not your post. You slipped your post in between my reading that post and when I responded

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I guess I was hoping to get people to actually think for themselves rather than reciting the dogmas of this or that denomination.

For example we know that the early Christians referred to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ". What did they mean by "Christ"/"Messiah"? A lot of modern people talk about "Christ consciousness", and I suppose they would imagine that there have been many people who have acquired this type of enlightenment throughout history.

A documentary I was watching mentioned that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, ..." - not "I am SHOWING you the way, the truth, ...".

Many Christians say "do you believe in Jesus?" In fact, the gospels have Jesus saying "so that all who believe in me will not perish but have everlasting life". Well almost everybody believes that a person named Jesus of Nazareth existed. What does "believe" mean specifically.

That's the discussion I was hoping to have.

Shouldn't it just be enough to pick a New Testament writer and say, "I believe what that guy says is true, so..........I think I'm a Christian and therefore 'saved'"? I mean, I can't imagine that Jesus came to create an army of sophisticated theologians and/or philosophers who can just rattle off answers to every little inquiry about Jesus that the human mind can contrive. It has to be simpler than that.

So, just pick a writer in the New Testament and choose to affirm and live what the guy says.

 

[mkgal1]

Shouldn't it just be enough to pick a New Testament writer and say, "I believe what that guy says is true, so..........I think I'm a Christian and therefore 'saved'"? I mean, I can't imagine that Jesus came to create an army of sophisticated theologians and/or philosophers who can just rattle off answers to every little inquiry about Jesus that the human mind can contrive. It has to be simpler than that.

So, just pick a writer in the New Testament and choose to affirm and live what the guy says.

The trouble with that is that people interpret "what that guys says" in different ways.

 

[dzheremi]

Nothing cute about that.

I added that thinking of if a visiting speaker were to come to, say a mega church in Amerika and preach that.

What would the congregants say, do you think?

I can delete it if you like.

Nah. I'm not the kind of person to ask others to delete things. And you may very well be right about what may be preached in mega churches in America (or not; I wouldn't know, since I'm not in that world), but if we're going to talk about how the early Church understood things and acted, then that's immaterial. It all depends on how you approach these sort of questions, I suppose.

 

[dzheremi]

I edited my post to point out that I was responding to what was shared from GotQuestions, and not your post. You slipped your post in between my reading that post and when I responded

Ah. Sorry about that. No one can control when others are posting, and the same thing happens to me on a semi-regular basis. Oops. No harm, no foul.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The trouble with that is that people interpret "what that guys says" in different ways.

Yes, which is where the fact that 'being' and 'believing' as a Christian involves some interaction with other Christians in community...........most of whom we'll disagree with on some teachings no matter what we do, and I think all of the writers in the New Testament imply various epistemological nuances exist in our individual attempts at having faith, nuances that we all have to contend and wrestle with in various ways.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, which is where the fact that 'being' and 'believing' as a Christian involves some interaction with other Christians in community...........most of whom we'll disagree with on some teachings no matter what we do, and I think all of the writers in the New Testament imply various epistemological nuances exist in our individual attempts at having faith, nuances that we all have to contend and wrestle with in various ways.

I agree - and this brings up what we SHOULD all agree on, that God IS love (not that God is just loving....or demonstrates love....or God is love, but....____[inserting something there that negates love all together]) and - as Christ followers - we need to embody the same quality in our being (which includes being merciful to those that we don't agree with). THAT is the minimal quality that seems to be left in the dust most often (when, I believe, it should be in the forefront).

 

[dzheremi]

But again the question here is "Minimal beliefs for Christian"...someone can be very loving and kind and all this and yet not believe in Christianity at all.

Christianity cannot be reduced to a purely moral system. It's just not possible. That's why pietism is a nice dream, but varies from 'not workable' to 'insanely destructive' in reality.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree - and this brings up what we SHOULD all agree on, that God IS love (not that God is just loving....or demonstrates love....or God is love, but....____[inserting something there that negates love all together]) and - as Christ followers - we need to embody the same quality in our being (which includes being merciful to those that we don't agree with). THAT is the minimal quality that seems to be left in the dust most often (when, I believe, it should be in the forefront).

I can agree with you that we SHOULD all believe that God is love, even if I might not agree with you about the extent to which God's mercy, grace and love will actually extend and be applied through the Final Judgement and into Eternity.

 

[klutedavid]

Question: "What are the essentials of the Christian faith?"

Answer: The Bible itself reveals what is important and essential to the Christian faith. These essentials are the deity of Christ, salvation by God’s grace and not by works, salvation through Jesus Christ alone, the resurrection of Christ, the Gospel, monotheism and the Holy Trinity. These are the main “essentials” that we should understand and believe if we are followers of Jesus Christ. Let’s look at all of these in a little more detail.

The deity of Christ. Quite simply, Jesus is God. While Jesus never directly says, “I am God” in the Scriptures, He makes it very clear to those around Him, especially the Pharisees and Sadducees, that He is God. John 10:30 says, “I and the Father are one.” Jesus was claiming deity, and, interestingly enough, He did not deny that He was God. Another example is John 20:28, when Thomas says, “My Lord and my God!” Again, Jesus does not correct Him by saying that He is not God. There are many other examples one can find in the Scriptures regarding Jesus’ rightful place in heaven.

Salvation by grace. We are all sinners separated from God and deserving of eternal punishment for our sin. Jesus’ death on the cross paid for the sins of mankind, giving us access to heaven and an eternal relationship with God. God did not have to do this for us, but He loves us so much that He sacrificed His only Son. This is grace, and it is most definitely undeserved favor. Scripture tells us, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). There is nothing we can do to earn God’s favor or gain access to heaven apart from His grace.

Salvation through Jesus Christ alone. A truly provocative question to ask someone might be “Do all roads lead to God?” The truth is that all roads do lead to God. Eventually, we are all going to stand before God when we die, no matter what faith we are. It is there that we will be judged for what we have or have not done while we were alive and whether Jesus Christ is Lord of our lives. For the majority of people, this will be a terrible occasion, as most will not know Him or be known by Him. For these people, hell will be the final destination. But God in His mercy has provided all of us the only means for salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 tells us that “salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” This passage speaks of the name of Jesus and His saving power. Another example is found in the book of John. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). No one gets into heaven except by faith in the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ on his or her behalf.

The resurrection of Christ. Perhaps no other event in the Bible, aside from Jesus’ appearance here on earth and subsequent death on the cross, is as significant to the Christian faith as that of the resurrection. Why is this event significant? The answer lies in the fact that Jesus died and then after three days came back to life and rose again to reappear to His followers in bodily form. Jesus had already demonstrated His ability to resurrect others such as His friend Lazarus. But now God the Father had resurrected Him to display His awesome power and glory. This amazing fact is what separates the Christian faith from all others. All other religions are based on works or a powerless deity or person. The leaders of all other religions die and remain dead. The Christian faith is based on Christ crucified and resurrected to life. “And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:14). Lastly, to deny Christ’s bodily resurrection (John 2:19-21) is to deny that Jesus’ work here on earth was a satisfactory offering to God for the sins of mankind.

The gospel. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul spells out what the gospel is and how important it is to embrace it and share it with others. He reminds the Corinthians of the gospel he preached among them: “That Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.” This is the essence of the gospel. Paul also warns us to be wary of the many “false gospels” that are being offered to the unsuspecting: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8-9). The pure gospel of Jesus Christ—His death on the cross for sinners and His resurrection to everlasting life—is central to the Christian faith.

Monotheism. Quite simply, there is only one God. Exodus 20:3 states very powerfully, “You shall have no other gods before me.” Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God to be worshipped and served. “‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me’” (Isaiah 43:10). Here we see that we are to “believe” and “understand” that God lives and is one. A Christian will know that there is only one God, the God of the Bible. All other “gods” are false and are no gods at all. “For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6).

The Holy Trinity. While the concept of a “three-in-one God” is not represented by a single verse or passage, it is described frequently throughout Scripture. If we look at Matthew 28:19, we see the verse calling out the Trinity: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” While this verse mentions all three Persons of the triune God, it does not call them the Trinity. So to understand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, we must look at the “totality” of Scripture and glean from it the definition. In 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, we see how this comes together: “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.” Again, we see all three Persons being represented but not titled the Holy Trinity.

Finally, the essentials of Christianity would not be complete without the ingredient that binds everything together—faith. “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). As Christians we live by this verse with the understanding that we believe in a God we cannot see. But we see His work in our lives and all around us in His creation. We do all of this through faith because we know that faith pleases God. “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).

www.gotquestions.org/essentials-Christian-faith.html

Very good post though I would add and subtract some of what you wrote.

The primary teaching of the apostles was the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus the messiah. ( 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 10:9-10, e.t.c.)

One needs to clarify that the verbal confession of the name of Jesus Christ is also necessary. What you speak about in life is that which you really believe in (Romans 10:9).

The goal of the entire teaching of the apostles can be summarized as follows.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Faith, love, holiness.

I would exclude the concept of the trinity as essential for salvation.

I would also exclude monotheism as not essential for salvation.

Jesus came to baptize with the fire of the Holy Spirit. So at a lesser level a water baptism but more importantly the Spiritual baptism.

God is love, therefore Jesus and love is what it is all really about.

 

[mkgal1]

But again the question here is "Minimal beliefs for Christian"...someone can be very loving and kind and all this and yet not believe in Christianity at all.

Christianity cannot be reduced to a purely moral system. It's just not possible. That's why pietism is a nice dream, but varies from 'not workable' to 'insanely destructive' in reality.

I agree that people can absolutely be very loving and kind, but that on that basis alone, that doesn't qualify them as "Christian". Most atheists I've met on this very site would probably be offended if we used that as the criteria, but most I've "met" here are definitely more loving and kind than a lot of people posting here that self-identify as "Christian".

However.....the other side of that is what disappoints me. Running into people that DO self-profess as Christian, but lack the basic requirement of being loving and kind. Obviously we all fall short of that at times....but I'm referring to those that can be characterized as UNloving and UNkind as a general rule.

 

[mkgal1]

I can agree with you that we SHOULD all believe that God is love, even if I might not agree with you about the extent to which God's mercy, grace and love will actually extend and be applied through the Final Judgement and into Eternity.

But shouldn't that qualify as a basic requirement for self-identifying as "Christian" (to agree that God is love)? If any other doctrine that flows from what's believed is in opposition to that - shouldn't that raise giant red flags? Can it still be called, "Christianity" if it totally diminishes what should be a basic tenet? Or....has it gone off into the realm of extremism?

I just can't buy into, "God is love......BUT...".

 

[klutedavid]

Of course I am aware of CF's use of the Nicene Creed to define the minimal beliefs of a Christian, but I wanted to get everybody's ideas for a set of beliefs where removal of any one of them makes the "Christian" label no longer applicable. Also this set of beliefs should be something that the historical Jesus would approve.

I'm asking because I keep thinking I believe in Christianity until I listen to people define Christianity. I continue to pray and think in Christian ways, but I disbelieve almost everything that most people require for Christians to believe.

What generates so much confusion regarding the primary definition of the gospel. Is that much of the New Testament contains letters written to churches where the recipients are already Christians. So the basis for salvation is blurred to some extent and many cannot isolate the primary gospel.

We need to dig deep into the New Testament to establish what the gospel comprises. This is not an easy process to embark on as there are a multitude, of conflicting formulations of the gospel throughout the Christian world.

Add to that the history of the early church and the creeds and we have an almost impossible task. So many distractions.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But shouldn't that qualify as a basic requirement for self-identifying as "Christian" (to agree that God is love)? If any other doctrine that flows from what's believed is in opposition to that - shouldn't that raise giant red flags? Can it still be called, "Christianity" if it totally diminishes what should be a basic tenet? Or....has it gone off into the realm of extremism?

I just can't buy into, "God is love......BUT...".

You can't buy into it? OK. But the fact that you may or may not 'buy into it' says little to nothing about whether the simplified, UNIVERSALIST view that "God is love" without any 'buts'----meant and applied in just the very way that you would mean and apply it-----is a minimal belief which ALL Christians should believe as well.

Besides, which writer in the Bible actually says, "God is love" without any additional contexts that can modify and mediate the overall meaning of how "God is love"? Does John in 1 John actually say this kind of thing, without conditions or additional nuances that might govern how we actually understand what it means to say that God is Love?

 

[mkgal1]

Besides, which writer in the Bible actually says, "God is love" without any additional contexts that can modify and mediate the overall meaning of how "God is love"? Does John in 1 John actually say this kind of thing, without conditions or additional nuances that might govern how we actually understand what it means to say that God is Love?

I don't see any qualifiers or conditions here - do you? If we don't read the story of God (or the life of Jesus) as being about His love for us....then, I'd say, we've missed the basic tenets of Christianity (but that's just my opinion).

1 John 4:8; 4:16 ~ Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.​

 

[cloudyday2]

I think than that there are two different questions here. The first would be the basic tenet of Christian "beliefs". Which I'm being corrected as to what the OP is asking. And the second is the basics of Christ. My editorial in that is that any more I don't believe they are the same thing and only rarely cross paths.

No, you read the OP correctly. I am NOT interested in the various theologies that have grown over the centuries. I am interested in what might be the minimum. Like if we take one of these theologies that we inherited and started removing features, at what point is it no longer Christianity?

 

[dlamberth]

I don't see any qualifiers or conditions here - do you? If we don't read the story of God (or the life of Jesus) as being about His love for us....then, I'd say, we've missed the basic tenets of Christianity (but that's just my opinion).

1 John 4:8; 4:16 ~ Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.​

I'd agree that Love is basic tenet of Jesus. But I think not necessarily of Christianity. And I think that's the issue here.

I think Marguerite Porete, a medieval woman mystic, had it exactly right when she wrote that there are two churches. The first is the church that preaches Love. The other is the church that preaches rules and law and order. But as happens even today, though not in such an extreme example, she was condemned as a heretic and burned at the stake by the church that preaches rules and law and order.

 

[Radagast]

but I wanted to get everybody's ideas for a set of beliefs where removal of any one of them makes the "Christian" label no longer applicable

The Nicene Creed, as has already been stated. It was formulated to answer exactly that question.

For example we know that the early Christians referred to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ". What did they mean by "Christ"/"Messiah"?

Partly they meant what the Hebrew Scriptures said about the Messiah and partly they meant what Jesus actually was.

 

[cloudyday2]

John 3:8,

Does not sound like following a creed,

Seems more like divine inspiration

That is an interesting observation. In the gospels Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove, and some scholars suspect that this was originally the point in time when the earliest Christians understood Jesus of Nazareth became Jesus the Messiah.

Many modern Charismatic and Pentecostal churches look suspiciously on anybody claiming to be "born again" who doesn't also claim to be "spirit-filled" (typically evidenced by speaking in tongues after baptism).

Also, the Essenes and many early Christians apparently believed that some people were elect and others were not. It was not a choice made by the person. If that person wasn't elected by God then that person couldn't join.

 

[dzheremi]

No, you read the OP correctly. I am NOT interested in the various theologies that have grown over the centuries.

Then it would seem you're not really interested in getting the answer to your question, because that is indeed the answer (the Creed). Maybe you should've started a different thread about "How should Christians behave towards people" or something like that if you wanted something less theological. If you're asking about beliefs, you are by definition asking about theology, since we're not a godless religion like Buddhism or Unitarian Universalism something.

I am interested in what might be the minimum. Like if we take one of these theologies that we inherited and started removing features, at what point is it no longer Christianity?

Nothing can be subtracted from nor added to the Nicene Creed as defined in 381, as this was the last version that was accepted by everyone who was in the Church (and I believe the council forbade any further changes, though it's been a while since I read the acts). You can ask the Romans about that and how well-received their "filioque" clause was in the lands to the east of their territories. As I suspect you already know, it was not well received at all. It would've conceivably gone the same for any who would subtract from it, though from what I can tell it was more common for those who couldn't assent to it to just come up with their own statements instead (e.g., Wulfilas' Creed, the Creed of the Nestorians formulated in 612 under Babai the Great, etc).