Millennial New Heavens and New Earth ?

[Bobgf]

Is the Millennial Kingdom of Rev 20:4-6 the same as the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 ??

It seems to me that Rev 20:4-6 is speaking of a different era than Isa 65:17-25.



Since a "new earth" seems to imply that the "old earth" has ended with an end-of-age event.

Then is there an end-of-age event (eg, burning up of earth) preceeding either Rev 20:4-6 or Isa 65:17-25 ?



BTW It seems obvious that the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is not the NH&E of Revelation 21.

While the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is physical, the NH&E of Revelation 21 is spiritual.

And in Isaiah 65, sin and death still reign, while in Revelation 21, there is no sin and death.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Is the Millennial Kingdom of Rev 20:4-6 the same as the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 ??

It seems to me that Rev 20:4-6 is speaking of a different era than Isa 65:17-25.



Since a "new earth" seems to imply that the "old earth" has ended with an end-of-age event.

Then is there an end-of-age event (eg, burning up of earth) preceeding either Rev 20:4-6 or Isa 65:17-25 ?



BTW It seems obvious that the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is not the NH&E of Revelation 21.

While the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is physical, the NH&E of Revelation 21 is spiritual.

And in Isaiah 65, sin and death still reign, while in Revelation 21, there is no sin and death.

I lean towards agreeing with you.

But I don't know if I'd define Isaiah 65 as physical and Rev 21 as spiritual....because Rev 21 is both. It isn't until Christ has reigned, putting everything under His feet, including death, that all will be made new.


So, it appears that there is judgment and wrath at both the beginning and end of the millenium. One produces
a world-wide returning to the ways of God while the other produces an end to this world (way of doing things - sin, death) and eternal life with God.

I don't know why God doesn't just say, "Ok, that's enough!" and end this order, start the new one immediately. Why is there a millenial reign of Christ? Is it just giving people more time to choose under better circumstances and many (like the sand on the seashore) still end up choosing the devil's way?

That could be it. "Someone" may have challenged God and said, "they (humans) only love you because of what you do for them" or "given more perfect circumstances (hedge of protection that Job had) under the reign of Christ, they still won't love you".


Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satanalso came with them.
Job 1:7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Job 1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
Job 1:10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
Job 1:12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.


I don't know...just speculation on my part.

 

[Bobgf]

Thanks for your response, HisdaughterJen, I appreciate your feedback.

We agree then that the NH&E of Isa 65 and the NH&E of Rev 21 are two separate time spans.
That's because Isa 65 alone embraces sin and death, and also procreation btw (per Luke 20:35)

So we are left with the consideration of the comparison between the NH&E time span of Isa 65 and the Millennial time span of Rev 20. The question is, are these two time spans equivalent? Are Isaiah 65 and Rev 20 the same time span?



Now Isaiah 11 tells us that after the Messanic reign of our Lord, Jesus, the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and there shall be no harm or ruin on God's holy mountain for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD as water covers the sea.

That situation is clearly not the case immediately after the Millennium where Satan and all the world's nations, numbering as the sand of the seas, invade God's people.

So the Isaiah 11 prophecy of a Messanic reign of peace, cannot apply to the Millennium, but must apply to the NH&E time span of Isaiah 65.



So it appears we have coming, three very distinct time spans:

1) Rev 20 Millennium where sin and death reign and ends with massive rebellion.

2) Isaiah 65 NH&E where again sin and death reign but ends with pervasive righteousness.

3) Rev 21 NH&E where sin and death is eradicated and replaced with eternal life.


The only conclusion that I can reach Jen, is that the Isaiah 65 NH&E, must follow the Millennium of Rev 20, and precede the Rev 21 NH&E.

What say you, HisdaughterJen ?

 

[GW]

Saint2:
The only conclusion that I can reach Jen, is that the Isaiah 65 NH&E, must follow the Millennium of Rev 20, and precede the Rev 21 NH&E.

GW:
Good work noticing that the Isaiah 65 NH&E is not the one at the end of time. What most premillennialists do is trick their followers into believing that Isaiah 65 is actually a millennial period, even though the passage explicitly says it is a NH&E.

Here is the truth of the matter: People who spend time reading the OT prophets note that the prophets call the end of any civilization a "destruction of heavens and earth," such as when the Babylonians conquered Israel in the 500s BC (read Jeremiah 4:13-5:6, and pay extra close attention to 4:23-29). Quite naturally, the new civilization that follows is called a NEW heavens and earth. For example, St. Peter calls the pre-flood and post-flood civilizations an old "heavens and earth" and a new "heavens and earth" (2 Peter 3:5-7). Likewise, the creation of the Israelites as a nation in their land under Moses and Joshua is called the creation of a new heavens and earth (see Isaiah 51:15-16). Simply put, the rise and fall and rise again of civilizations are called the ends and beginnings of heavens and earths. That's how the prophets spoke of these things.


Saint2:
Now Isaiah 11 tells us that after the Messanic reign of our Lord, Jesus, the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb


GW:
The Isaiah 11:6-9 passage, which says the "lion" and "wolf" and the "snake" won't hurt and destroy on God's holy mountain (Mt. Zion), is speaking of the end of divinely decreed wars against Jerusalem from the jews' national enemies. Note that when Nebuchadnezzer attacks Israel in the 500s BC, he is called "A lion coming up from his thicket to make the land desolate" (Jer 4:5-7). The Babylonian conquest is described as follows: "a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities" (Jeremiah 5:6). The wild, dangerous animals are metaphors for the natural enemies of the Hebrew tribes during wartime.


Saint 2:
So the Isaiah 11 prophecy of a Messanic reign of peace, cannot apply to the Millennium, but must apply to the NH&E time span of Isaiah 65.

GW:
They probably do speak of the same thing, and they may speak of Israel's return from the Babylonian exile (500s BC) or a reunion after the Assyrian conquests of the 700s BC. They could also speak of the peace God made in Christ between the jews and gentiles, as described by St. Paul (Eph 2:11-19), where the jews and gentiles actually have become one family and co-citizens united together under King Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

BTW It seems obvious that the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is not the NH&E of Revelation 21.

While the NH&E of Isaiah 65 is physical, the NH&E of Revelation 21 is spiritual.

And in Isaiah 65, sin and death still reign, while in Revelation 21, there is no sin and death.

My Scriptural view is ALL things are FINISHED upon the last bowl being poured out in Revelation and why I disagree with the Roman church on being in the Millenium now. The 1000yr period could just be another way of symbolizing Daniel's time, times and half-time.
Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out voice, great, out of the sanctuary from the throne saying :it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42771526#post42771526
quote Catholic Page 2 Post # 203

Chapter 20 Verse 1-3 deals with Christ's death and ressurection and his victory over Satan.

Chapter 20 Verse 4-5 Deals with Christ's Established Church that refussed to follow the beast. This was all done when Rome converted to Christianity and the 1000 years began.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

..............This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled. This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage the doctrine of 'Biblical inerrancy.'.........

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Thanks for your response, HisdaughterJen, I appreciate your feedback.

We agree then that the NH&E of Isa 65 and the NH&E of Rev 21 are two separate time spans.
That's because Isa 65 alone embraces sin and death, and also procreation btw (per Luke 20:35)

So we are left with the consideration of the comparison between the NH&E time span of Isa 65 and the Millennial time span of Rev 20. The question is, are these two time spans equivalent? Are Isaiah 65 and Rev 20 the same time span?



Now Isaiah 11 tells us that after the Messanic reign of our Lord, Jesus, the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and there shall be no harm or ruin on God's holy mountain for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD as water covers the sea.

That situation is clearly not the case immediately after the Millennium where Satan and all the world's nations, numbering as the sand of the seas, invade God's people.

So the Isaiah 11 prophecy of a Messanic reign of peace, cannot apply to the Millennium, but must apply to the NH&E time span of Isaiah 65.



So it appears we have coming, three very distinct time spans:

1) Rev 20 Millennium where sin and death reign and ends with massive rebellion.

2) Isaiah 65 NH&E where again sin and death reign but ends with pervasive righteousness.

3) Rev 21 NH&E where sin and death is eradicated and replaced with eternal life.


The only conclusion that I can reach Jen, is that the Isaiah 65 NH&E, must follow the Millennium of Rev 20, and precede the Rev 21 NH&E.

What say you, HisdaughterJen ?

Well, it's a possibility.

But it looks like the time or (times) when sin and death reign must be before the Great White Throne Judgment when there is a massive resurrection and people are separated (sheep and goats) and then death is destroyed.

It has always bothered me that people would spend 1000 years under Christ and yet still rebell against Him.

However, Zech 14 shows that there is still disobedience after Christ returns (if nations don't do what they are supposed to do, they have no rain). So, in speculation, maybe those nations that refuse to obey and are punished, harbor resentment, which is acted upon when the devil is released.

So, that leads me to believe that while nations might not be learning war anymore during the millenium, they are still obstinate in their acceptance of Christ's authority and his reigning from Jerusalem, Israel with the Jewish people in "control" or at the very least, "raised up". (Hosea 6)

Zech 14 also gives a glimpse into what most people are doing after Christ puts his foot on the Mount of Olives. It does describe some disobedience but also relative righteousness, and allegedly in the millenium since it is after Christ's return:

Zec 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
Zec 14:18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 On that day HOLY TO THE Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
Zec 14:21Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.




So, I'm still thinking that while the millenium will be better because the devil bound, it's still not perfect. Jesus reigns until everything is put under his feet...including disobedience, sin, and death.

 

[Bobgf]

Hi GW, thanks for your comments.

Good work noticing that the Isaiah 65 NH&E is not the one at the end of time. What most premillennialists do is trick their followers into believing that Isaiah 65 is actually a millennial period, even though the passage explicitly says it is a NH&E.

Here is the truth of the matter: People who spend time reading the OT prophets note that the prophets call the end of any civilization a "destruction of heavens and earth," such as when the Babylonians conquered Israel in the 500s BC (read Jeremiah 4:13-5:6, and pay extra close attention to 4:23-29).

GW, I think we may have a difficult time communicating together because of our different approaches to scripture. I've only read a few of your posts, so I'm not sure, but you seem to see scripture either in a purely metaphorically sense, or as mostly fulfilled in the past. On the other hand, I see scripture both metaphorically and literally. But I take the plain literal sense first and then apply the metaphorical sense to my literal understanding. Also, I see prophecy as often being cyclic, repeating over and over again, each time coming to a grandeur more complete fulfillment.

For example, in your reference to Jeremiah 4:13-5:6, you see that prophecy as having been fulfilled when the Babylonians conquered Israel in the 500s BC. While I agree that this prophecy was fulfilled then, I see an even greater fulfillment of that prophecy soon coming again as prophesized by Luke 21:21-23 and Matt 24:15-21.

Quite naturally, the new civilization that follows is called a NEW heavens and earth. For example, St. Peter calls the pre-flood and post-flood civilizations an old "heavens and earth" and a new "heavens and earth" (2 Peter 3:5-7).

Yes, 2 Peter 3:7 says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. I think perhaps this is another prophecy which can be applied twice in a literal sense. First application at the end of the Millennium to destroy ungodly men of this present evil age when the earth will then be renewed by fire. Then applied again at the end of the Isaiah 65 NH&E when the earth will be completely consumed to inaugurate the Rev 21 NH&E.

The Isaiah 11:6-9 passage, which says the "lion" and "wolf" and the "snake" won't hurt and destroy on God's holy mountain (Mt. Zion), is speaking of the end of divinely decreed wars against Jerusalem from the jews' national enemies. Note that when Nebuchadnezzer attacks Israel in the 500s BC, he is called "A lion coming up from his thicket to make the land desolate" (Jer 4:5-7). The Babylonian conquest is described as follows: "a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities" (Jeremiah 5:6). The wild, dangerous animals are metaphors for the natural enemies of the Hebrew tribes during wartime.

Yes I see this has that metaphorical sense you've indicated, but the Isaiah 11 prophecy also has a plain literal sense which will be fulfilled in the coming Messianic Age.

 

[Bobgf]

My Scriptural view is ALL things are FINISHED upon the last bowl being poured out in Revelation and why I disagree with the Roman church on being in the Millenium now. The 1000yr period could just be another way of symbolizing Daniel's time, times and half-time.
Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out voice, great, out of the sanctuary from the throne saying :it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42771526#post42771526
quote Catholic Page 2 Post # 203

Chapter 20 Verse 1-3 deals with Christ's death and ressurection and his victory over Satan.

Chapter 20 Verse 4-5 Deals with Christ's Established Church that refussed to follow the beast. This was all done when Rome converted to Christianity and the 1000 years began.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

..............This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled. This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage the doctrine of 'Biblical inerrancy.'.........

Hi LittleLambofJesus, thanks for your comments.

My Scriptural view is ALL things are FINISHED upon the last bowl being poured out in Revelation and why I disagree with the Roman church on being in the Millenium now. The 1000yr period could just be another way of symbolizing Daniel's time, times and half-time.
Thoughts?

Well, scripture says:
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accompllished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7)

As for Daniel, I'm sorry LittleLambofJesus, but I don't have many thoughts to share on that, because it's still pretty much of a closed book to me.


But thanks for your links. The link to "scripture4all" will probably be a big help to me. And the link to "daniel" looks pretty lengthy, so I'll have to postpone that for later this evening.

 

[ross3421]

My Scriptural view is ALL things are FINISHED upon the last bowl being poured out in Revelation and why I disagree with the Roman church on being in the Millenium now. The 1000yr period could just be another way of symbolizing Daniel's time, times and half-time.
Thoughts?

LL,

Hopefully you have read my replies on the 1000 years.....I agree that when the last trumpet/Bowl is completed all thing will be finished upon the old earth and a new will be usered in.

Now concerning the 1000 years? Is Peter not really telling us that "with the Lord" in heaven time really does not matter??? In fact is there really measured time at all?

2pe 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I see that the 1000 years represent "time" outside of this relm heaven / hell where there is no measured time (timelessness). The words "thousand years" are used to encompass any time in this location as a catch all metaphor. Note we ourselves have all useda "thousand years" to describe a event...

Mark

 

[GW]

Saint 2:
I see scripture both metaphorically and literally. But I take the plain literal sense first and then apply the metaphorical sense to my literal understanding.


GW:
But when it can be shown in scripture that the prophets are using phrases that are consistently metaphoric, it is incorrect to literalize. Such is the case with old and new heavens and earth language, which the prophets consistently used metaphorically to describe the literal rise and fall of civilizations.


Saint 2:
in your reference to Jeremiah 4:13-5:6, you see that prophecy as having been fulfilled when the Babylonians conquered Israel in the 500s BC. ...I agree that this prophecy was fulfilled then

GW:
I'm glad you see that the Jeremiah 4:13-5:6 passage uses the destruction-of-heavens-and-earth as a metaphor for the destruction of Israel by the conquest of the Babylonians in the 500s BC. It's important to note this, for literalizing the passage is impossible, since the prophet expects the reader to understand that he is using a metaphor.


Saint 2:
Yes, 2 Peter 3:7 says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire

GW:
You may have missed my point. I cited 2 Peter 3:5-7 because it is another example of a prophet using the "heavens and earth" language metaphorically to mean the rise and fall and rise again of a civilization. St. Peter calls the pre-flood era an "old heavens and earth" and then calls the post-flood era a new heavens and earth. Then he proceeds to look ahead for some other application of this metaphor. The point to understand is this: the prophets use "old/new heavens and earth" as a metaphor for the rise and fall of civilizations.


Saint 2:
Yes I see this has that metaphorical sense you've indicated, but the Isaiah 11 prophecy also has a plain literal sense which will be fulfilled

GW:
But again, if it is common for the prophets to use animals attacking Mt. Zion as a metaphor, then it is wrong to literalize that situation, for it results in an error in scripture reading.

 

[Bobgf]

But it looks like the time or (times) when sin and death reign must be before the Great White Throne Judgment when there is a massive resurrection and people are separated (sheep and goats) and then death is destroyed.

Jen, your right, neither sin nor death can reign after the GWT Judgment.

Therefore, I believe that the NH&E of Isaiah 65 must come BETWEEN Revelation verses Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:11.

That is, the NH&E era of Isaiah 65 comes after the devil is thrown into the lake of burning sulfur (Rev 20:10), and before the GWT Judgment (Rev 20:11) where the earth and sky flee from God's presence since there will be no place for them.




But I don't think the sheep and goats judgment is coincident with the GWT Judgment. Rather I believe the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25:31-46 is during the Messianic Age of Isaiah 65:17-25.

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matt 25:31+) ​

Note Christ comes in his glory inaugurating the Messianic Age of Isaiah 65:17-25. And he comes as a shepherd to shepherd the flock with justice. He will bind up the injured and heal the sick, but the sleek and the strong he will destroy. (Ezek 34:11-16)



I think 2 Peter 3:10-12 corroborates this scenario. To wit:

First we have this present evil age including the Millennium of Rev 20
This ends with destructive fire which renews this present earth - see 2 Peter 3:10

Then beginsa new age, NH&E of Isaiah 65, the Messianic Kingdom of Christ.
This too ends with destructive fire consuming the NH&E of Isa 65 - see 2 Peter 3:12

Then another new age, NH&E of Rev 21, with eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen, your right, neither sin nor death can reign after the GWT Judgment.

Therefore, I believe that the NH&E of Isaiah 65 must come BETWEEN Revelation verses Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:11.

That is, the NH&E era of Isaiah 65 comes after the devil is thrown into the lake of burning sulfur (Rev 20:10), and before the GWT Judgment (Rev 20:11) where the earth and sky flee from God's presence since there will be no place for them.




But I don't think the sheep and goats judgment is coincident with the GWT Judgment. Rather I believe the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25:31-46 is during the Messianic Age of Isaiah 65:17-25.

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matt 25:31+) ​

Note Christ comes in his glory inaugurating the Messianic Age of Isaiah 65:17-25. And he comes as a shepherd to shepherd the flock with justice. He will bind up the injured and heal the sick, but the sleek and the strong he will destroy. (Ezek 34:11-16)



I think 2 Peter 3:10-12 corroborates this scenario. To wit:

First we have this present evil age including the Millennium of Rev 20
This ends with destructive fire which renews this present earth - see 2 Peter 3:10

Then beginsa new age, NH&E of Isaiah 65, the Messianic Kingdom of Christ.
This too ends with destructive fire consuming the NH&E of Isa 65 - see 2 Peter 3:12

Then another new age, NH&E of Rev 21, with eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

I don't know...who are the nations Jesus rules with a rod of iron? When does that happen?

Rev 2:27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Rev 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



Couple that with the disobedience upon Jesus' return mentioned in Zech 14, and I'm thinking that the millenium has justice and righteousness as well as sin, disobedience and death.

And, if Jesus must reign until all enemies are under his feet, then that means there are enemies to be put under his feet while he reigns.

I don't know...I'm still leaning toward judgment/wrath, followed by millenial reign, followed by GWT judgment, followed by eternity in new heavens/new earth.

 

[Bobgf]

Saint 2:
I see scripture both metaphorically and literally. But I take the plain literal sense first and then apply the metaphorical sense to my literal understanding.


GW:
But when it can be shown in scripture that the prophets are using phrases that are consistently metaphoric, it is incorrect to literalize. Such is the case with old and new heavens and earth language, which the prophets consistently used metaphorically to describe the literal rise and fall of civilizations.


Saint 2:
in your reference to Jeremiah 4:13-5:6, you see that prophecy as having been fulfilled when the Babylonians conquered Israel in the 500s BC. ...I agree that this prophecy was fulfilled then

GW:
I'm glad you see that the Jeremiah 4:13-5:6 passage uses the destruction-of-heavens-and-earth as a metaphor for the destruction of Israel by the conquest of the Babylonians in the 500s BC. It's important to note this, for literalizing the passage is impossible, since the prophet expects the reader to understand that he is using a metaphor.


Saint 2:
Yes, 2 Peter 3:7 says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire

GW:
You may have missed my point. I cited 2 Peter 3:5-7 because it is another example of a prophet using the "heavens and earth" language metaphorically to mean the rise and fall and rise again of a civilization. St. Peter calls the pre-flood era an "old heavens and earth" and then calls the post-flood era a new heavens and earth. Then he proceeds to look ahead for some other application of this metaphor. The point to understand is this: the prophets use "old/new heavens and earth" as a metaphor for the rise and fall of civilizations.


Saint 2:
Yes I see this has that metaphorical sense you've indicated, but the Isaiah 11 prophecy also has a plain literal sense which will be fulfilled

GW:
But again, if it is common for the prophets to use animals attacking Mt. Zion as a metaphor, then it is wrong to literalize that situation, for it results in an error in scripture reading.

GW, after his resurrection, on the road to Emmaus, Jesus met two of his disciples who were downcast because their hope for a redeemer was shattered when they saw Jesus crucified and killed. Then Jesus admonished them:"Oh how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!"

I don't want to make the same mistake that these two disciples did. Particularly now that I have been warned by the word of truth. So I take every single word of God very seriously. And the signature I usually use at the end of my posts are the very words Jesus spoke to his tempter in the desert: "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

I think these words of Jesus demand that we view scripture in its basic plain literal sense.

 

[GW]

Saint 2:
after his resurrection, on the road to Emmaus, Jesus met two of his disciples...I don't want to make the same mistake that these two disciples did...I think these words of Jesus demand that we view scripture in its basic plain literal sense

GW:
Scripture says Jesus is a vine, a lamb, and a light. Is he??? No, not literally. So, the mistake would be to make a metaphor of something literal or to make literal something that is a metaphor.

So how do we know what things are metaphors in scripture and what things are literal? By comparing scripture with scripture. That's what I did, and you saw the passages too, and you could see that my points were true, and yet you still seem hesitant to accept that the prophets used metaphors. The Hebrews were very colorful and poetic and dramatic in their language---way more than today's English-speaking people are.

For us to interpret scripture correctly, we need to understand ancient Hebrew people and their language patterns. We do this by reading the prophets carefully and in context, and by comparing their words in context with other passages of scripture which they wrote. In essence, we have to learn to adopt their speech patterns, not make them fit ours.

I showed you that the Hebrew prophets used the idea of new & old "heavens and earth" to speak of any rise and fall of civilization. Isaiah did, Jeremiah did, and St. Peter did. That gives us good reason to understand Isaiah 65 in this light, too. I showed you that the prophets regularly called their enemies various wild animals that would attack Mt. Zion. These are metaphors, but they correspond to real events. Metaphors are not less true, they are simply more dramatic and imaginative.

 

[Bobgf]

I don't know...who are the nations Jesus rules with a rod of iron? When does that happen?

That would have to be in this present evil age, including the Millennium and for a period thereafter, don't you think? I can't see any extreme evil occurring during the Messianic Age when even the animals are at peace with mankind (Isaiah 11:6-9).

Daniel 7:11-13 indicates that after the 4th beast is slain [beginning of day of LORD] the other beasts are granted a prolongation of life for a time and a season. This may require some use of that rod of iron for awhile.

But, it's not until afterwards in Daniel 7:14 that the son of man receives kingship. I don't really understand all that, but there it is. BTW, I'm sure you know, the 4th beast crushes and devours the whole earth per Dan 7:23.

Couple that with the disobedience upon Jesus' return mentioned in Zech 14, and I'm thinking that the millenium has justice and righteousness as well as sin, disobedience and death.

In the millennium, I think there will be far more sin, disobedience and death, rather than justice and righteousness.

And, if Jesus must reign until all enemies are under his feet, then that means there are enemies to be put under his feet while he reigns.

Both sin and death exist, even in the Messianic Age, up until the GWT Judgment, so Jesus will have enemies until then.

I don't know...I'm still leaning toward judgment/wrath, followed by millenial reign, followed by GWT judgment, followed by eternity in new heavens/new earth.

OK, Jen, but in that chain of events where do you place such peaceful time spans as Psalm 72 with its "profound peace, till the moon be no more (ie, till end-of-age)" ?

The Psalm 72 time span doesn't leave much room for a Satanic led world wide rebellion (Rev 20:8), does it?

I see Psalm 72, and others such as Isaiah 11:6-9, placed after the millennial reign and before the GWT judgment.

 

[Bobgf]

Scripture says Jesus is a vine, a lamb, and a light. Is he??? No, not literally. So, the mistake would be to make a metaphor of something literal or to make literal something that is a metaphor.

So how do we know what things are metaphors in scripture and what things are literal? By comparing scripture with scripture. That's what I did, and you saw the passages too, and you could see that my points were true, and yet you still seem hesitant to accept that the prophets used metaphors.

GW, you've presented a cogent argument, and I respect your viewpoint. I do agree with much of what you say, but I don't quite agree with everything that you've stated.

Indeed, as scripture says, Jesus is a vine, a lamb, and a light.

Assuredly, this is not in a literal physical sense, but rather it's in a literal spiritual sense. In Paul's words:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. (1Cor 2:13)​

And you are right in saying here, that "vine" is a metaphor for "Jesus", because the ordinary use of the word "vine" is transferred by comparison to "Jesus". And that is what a metaphor is, even though this comparison is in a spiritual sense.


And again, you are correct in saying that the prophets used metaphors, no question about it. For example, the Book of Daniel alone is replete with metaphors, using "beasts" for "kingdoms"


And your biblical approach, comparing scripture with scripture, is indeed commendable.
That's the only sure way to understand God's word, and that leads into the basic hermeneutic principle of biblical interpretation: To wit, let scripture interpret scripture.


So when we encounter a metaphor in scripture, it is prudent to check your concordance, or some equivalent online resource like BlueLetterBible or BibleGateway, and search through all of scripture to see how that metaphoric word is used. Somewhere in the scriptures, the bible will give the literal interpretive meaning of that metaphor.


I give as example the metaphoric words you said scriptures apply to Jesus. The scriptures clearly explain that the metaphors, vine, lamb, and light, can be literally applied to Jesus:

John 15:5I am the vine; you are the branches. ​

John 1:36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"​

John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."​

Other examples of scripture giving the literal meaning of metaphors are:

Psalm 57:4 men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords.​

Daniel 7:17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.​

Revelation 20:14 The lake of fire is the second death.​

So maybe we are more in agreement than might be first apparent, but not totally.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

For those interested I have a poll on the GT board concerning the 1000yr period.
It is not for debate but for clarifying some doctrines held about the 2nd coming. Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/t6813701-question-time-jesus-returns-before-or-after-1000yrs.html

 

[visionary]

What is the purpose of the millinium?

Is it to stop and have a rest from sin, the sabbatical if you will?

Is it so the Jesus can rule with an iron rod as our King?

Is it a time for the wedding supper in heaven?

any other suggestions?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What is the purpose of the millinium?

Is it to stop and have a rest from sin, the sabbatical if you will?

Is it so the Jesus can rule with an iron rod as our King?

Is it a time for the wedding supper in heaven?

any other suggestions?

Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

&#8220;Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.&#8221;
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.




Goes along with ruling with an iron rod, I guess...


It'll be a taste of what God offers mankind...giving people a last chance to choose, I suppose.

 

[visionary]

Many have pointed to

Heb 4: 8 For if Jesus F10 had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

as this scripture is speaking of now the weekly sabbath rest but the millinium rest.