Military service as a prerequisite for the Presidency?

[DieHappy]

Well, I think it is important for the chief executive to be a good administrator. I don't really look for "leadership" from a President. I would be happy if a President would just effectively enforce the law. Charisma, the ability to motivate people, the ability to unite people, the ability to get people to work together, etc. are nice, but what good do they do if one doesn't have the knowledge and organizational skills needed to turn the laws that Congress makes into forces in people's lives? Charisma won't get identity theft under control. However, picking a good Attorney General might get indentity theft under control.

It seems to me that the knowledge and skills needed to effectively enforce the law can be learned outside of the military.

Maybe a candidate with a military background better understands the nature of combat, the physical and mental demands of military service, the harsh realities of war, etc. But a military background makes a man or a woman a better "leader"?!

I haven't read this thread yet, but the first thing that comes to mind is that someone who isn't a good leader would never get elected. I agree that administration skills are more important, but leaders motivate people to do what they envision, like vote for them.

I also agree that leadership skills can be learned outside of the military, if the person is willing to exhibit the utmost integrity and learn the process.

 

[Nathan Poe]

If your ideals were held steadfast in 1939, you'd be speaking German right now, and it wouldn't be by your own choice. If your ideals hold steadfast today, you'll be praying to Allah 5 times a day to keep your head attached.

Heck, you can look at the French, Polish, US, and English leaders of 1944 and see what pacifism caused(WW2). Aggression knows no bounds when its embraced with pacifism. Unfortunately the pacifism found in today left and US-Democratic parties also knows no bounds, and its extremely dangerous to all of us because of the fact that Islam is not capable of being pacified.

Aggression knows no bounds, even when it should. It should be noted that one of the reasons we're not all speaking German right now is the exact opposite of your claim: too much warmongering by the Axis during WWII. Both Germany and Japan committed the same worst possible strategic blunder: attacking too many enemies at once.

Germany had the most powerful army with the best possible training and weaponry -- they could have easily swallowed up Europe had Adolf not decided to go after Russia at the same time. And even then, the Russian winter stopped the Nazis at least as much as the Russian troops did. Simultaneously advancing into Africa was sheer foolishness.

Germany's overextention was probably the second-biggest blunder of WWII, but it pales in comparison with the biggest blunder: Pearl Harbor.

Did the Japanese really need a pre-emptive strike to try to keep the US out of the war? Wasn't the country already ambivilent enough on the subject before PH?

Japanese ultranationalism and feelings of invulnerability (centuries of martial tradition will do that) led them to see the US navy as a potential threat, and PH was seen as the solution. Instead, PH galvanized America into "battle mode" as surely as 9/11 would do decades later.

Without that, the US would not have gotten as involved in the war as they did for years, if at all. and by then, it might have been too late.

Funny, If Germany and Japan had just stuck with their original gameplans, and kept their eyes on the prize, the maps of Europe and Asia would look a lot different now. And we would probably be speaking German and/or Japanese now -- but not because of our own pacifism.

 

[MachZer0]

I haven't read this thread yet, but the first thing that comes to mind is that someone who isn't a good leader would never get elected. I agree that administration skills are more important, but leaders motivate people to do what they envision, like vote for them.

I also agree that leadership skills can be learned outside of the military, if the person is willing to exhibit the utmost integrity and learn the process.

Do you suppose it was his military service that made G.W. Bush the great leader he is?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Do you suppose it was his military service that made G.W. Bush the great leader he is?

G. W. Bush is a great leader?

 

[Alabaster]

Actually, Lincoln did serve though it was brief.
http://www.angelfire.com/my/abrahamlincoln/Military.html

Yes, I pointed that out roughly four hours earlier.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Yes, I pointed that out roughly four hours earlier.

Silly me, I forgot that you require us to read all the posts before we respond to yours. Please forgive me

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

...someone who isn't a good leader would never get elected.

Yeah, leadership can make one an effective politician. I just don't think that it necessarily makes an effective statesman. And I don't think that it has much use in filling the Constitutional role of the President: enforcing the laws that Congress makes. To be sure, it has some use. But it is only a small percentage of the knowledge and skills utilized in turning the laws that Congress makes into forces in people's lives.

But, yeah, leadership skills are important--and maybe indispensable--in gaining and holding power.

 

[Alabaster]

Silly me, I forgot that you require us to read all the posts before we respond to yours. Please forgive me

That's OK, you were at work, and juggling lurking and posting on multiple threads, I’m assuming you did your job somewhere in there too, etc... you were probably busy. I'm just happy you took time out of your busy workday to respond!!!

 

[DieHappy]

Do you suppose it was his military service that made G.W. Bush the great leader he is?

G. W. Bush is a great leader?

I'm not sure we need to debate the semantics of "great", but he is certainly a strong leader. I don't know if he learned it in the military, but I would guess he learned most of it from his dad's boss. He has the ability to motivate, inspire, and share his dream with the masses. Just because you disagree with him doesn't make him less of a leader.

I also think too many people confuse administration with leadership. They are often lumped together (like on spiritual gift tests) but they are really quite different.

 

[DieHappy]

Yeah, leadership can make one an effective politician. I just don't think that it necessarily makes an effective statesman. And I don't think that it has much use in filling the Constitutional role of the President: enforcing the laws that Congress makes. To be sure, it has some use. But it is only a small percentage of the knowledge and skills utilized in turning the laws that Congress makes into forces in people's lives.

But, yeah, leadership skills are important--and maybe indispensable--in gaining and holding power.

I agree. The question, then, is how do we elect good statesmen when the leaders, by definition, attract followers?

 

[jgarden]

I think GW actually said it best, before 2000, he was asked what his experience was on certain things. I don't remember his exact words, but he basically said he would have experts on these topics, people with plenty of experience to guide him making decisions about things, including military actions, and he would use his conscience. I'm not saying GW actually did this all the time, but it's how it should be done.

The problem is that with the exception of Colin Powell, his "experts" have no more experience than he does.

GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years.

VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)

Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor but never saw combat.

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)

Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2)

Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)

Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition

Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve.

Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

."B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)

Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)

Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.

Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2),

Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)but played quarterback at Oklahoma

Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically
continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)

Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity

Rudy Giuliani, did not serve (1, 2)

Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)

George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

 

[DieHappy]

Boy, that is some great list. Too bad it has nothing to do anything, unless you are trying to argue that combat experience should be a prerequisite for all elected positions and appointed positions. Bush surrounded himself by the people he felt would best help him do his job. Guess what? That's a sign of a great leader. Maybe you can explain why his cabinet appointees should have served or would be doing a better job if they had.

 

[MachZer0]

Boy, that is some great list. Too bad it has nothing to do anything, unless you are trying to argue that combat experience should be a prerequisite for all elected positions and appointed positions. Bush surrounded himself by the people he felt would best help him do his job. Guess what? That's a sign of a great leader. Maybe you can explain why his cabinet appointees should have served or would be doing a better job if they had.

It should also be noted that the actual war planning and execution were carried out by Tommy Franks who, guess what, served!

 

[momalle1]

The problem is that with the exception of Colin Powell, his "experts" have no more experience than he does.

GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years.

VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)

Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor but never saw combat.

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)

Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2)

Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)

Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition

Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve.

Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

."B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)

Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)

Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.

Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2),

Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)but played quarterback at Oklahoma

Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically
continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)

Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity

Rudy Giuliani, did not serve (1, 2)

Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)

George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Like I said, he didn't exactly follow it, he did however, have active generals he chose to ignore in the case of Iraq.

 

[jgarden]

Boy, that is some great list. Too bad it has nothing to do anything, unless you are trying to argue that combat experience should be a prerequisite for all elected positions and appointed positions. Bush surrounded himself by the people he felt would best help him do his job. Guess what? That's a sign of a great leader. Maybe you can explain why his cabinet appointees should have served or would be doing a better job if they had.

"Retired General Wesley Clark, a Democratic candidate for president in 2004, on Saturday joined six other former generals in urging Rumsfeld to resign. Army Major General Charles Swannack, Army Major General John Riggs, Army Major General John Batiste, Marine Corps Lieutenant General Greg Newbold, Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni and Army Major General Paul Eaton, all retired, also have called for Rumsfeld to be replaced.

They contend Rumsfeld mismanaged the military's post- invasion operations and ignored the advice of field commanders. Swannack, Batiste and Eaton all served in the Iraq war."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aMvb7x6E9Ehg&refer=us

1. A "hawkish" Republican Administration whose ranks from top to bottom are filled with "patriots" who were conspicuous by their abscence during the Vietnam War.

2. Ultimately, a "great" leader should know that one's credibility is based on example and not words.

3. The one and only man (Colin Powell) with the experience and prestige to conduct the war is marginalized and eventually resigns.

4. Only retired generals are allowed to criticize, so they represent just the tip of the "iceberg" within the military itself.

5. Rumsfeld only appoints those who agree with him to the highest positions in the military. Thus he is surrounded by "yes men" and the nation loses unbiased input.

 

[MikeMcK]

President Bush has military experience but I don't believe would get anymore than a "C" on any military report card.

Clinton had no military experience and it showed. He had a bad habit of inserting our military into inappropriate situations for personal reasons and, in the case of Somalia, bungling the mission and running away.

Bush41 was a war hero and did pretty well with the military.

Reagan was an officer during WWII, but his service was strictly non-combat. He turned out to be a tremendous military leader. Not only a great CiC, but also the man responsible for putting the military back together after years of neglect during the Carter debacle and following Vietnam. Twenty yeard later, we're still reaping the benefits.

JFK not only had military experience, but was a war hero. He was terrible, when it came to the military.

Carter was a Naval officer, but was an incompetent who bungled the military like no other president.

Eisenhower was...well, Eisenhower, but was not very good when it came to the military under his watch. It's ironic to think that the man who masterminded D-Day and so much of the success in the European Theatre of WWII would be such an ineffective CiC.

Nixon was a Naval officer and might have been a good CiC, except that he was far too prone to cave in to public opinion and, in an unpopular war like Vietnam, that was just a disaster waiting to happen.

Now, neither FDR or Abe Lincoln as military experience (although Lincoln did train for a couple of weeks with a local militia) and, for their parts, executed WWII and the War of Northern Aggression pretty well.

Of course, they did it by simply unleashing the military, rather than micromanaging it, which is the mistake LBJ, Nixon and Bush43 all made.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

JFK not only had military experience, but was a war hero. He was terrible, when it came to the military.

A conversation with someone who said that military service makes one a better leader and who said that military service ought to be a prerequisite for the Presidency led to this thread. Do you know which President that person repeatedly brings up as an example of the leadership that he admires and that he thinks military service develops? President Kennedy.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about the relationship between having served in the military and being an effective manager of the military. We are talking about the relationship between having served in the military and being an effective "leader"--particularly an effective "leader" in crisis situations.

If there is a causal relationship between military service and effective leadership, why do we assume that the military service causes the leadership? Is it not possible that the leadership causes the military service? You know...maybe people who are good leaders are inclined to serve in the military.

Where is the evidence that military service turns an ineffective leader into an effective leader?

 

[MikeMcK]

A conversation with someone who said that military service makes one a better leader and who said that military service ought to be a prerequisite for the Presidency led to this thread. Do you know which President that person repeatedly brings up as an example of the leadership that he admires and that he thinks military service develops? President Kennedy.

So, which example of Kennedy's military leadership do you think he respects more: the Bay of Pigs or getting us into Vietnam?

Kennedy was charismatic, there's no doubt about that, but being charismatic doesn't mean that one is a good leader.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Kennedy. I think his supply side economic policies were a breath of fresh air and they were tremendously successful. I wonder why the libs who hold Kennedy up as a hero never want to talk about his economic policies? Had he lived and had I been born, I very likely would have voted for him in '64.

That doesn't change the fact that morally and militarily, he wasn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Bush41 was a war hero and did pretty well with the military.

The book "Flyboys" is a great book to read, as it deals with the former President and a certain mission during WWII. He was the only pilot to be rescued off the coast of the Japanese Island of Chichi Jima. He was the only one of 9 pilots and he was picked up by a U.S. Navy sub.