Might the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory be the same thing?

[Basil the Great]

I suspect that most all of you here will disagree with the implication in my thread, but it seems to me that there is not all that much difference between the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory. Both provide some form of testing or trial before entrance into Heaven is possible, with perhaps the exception of some saints. Now, one difference appears to be that all of those in the Catholic Purgatory are assured of eventually getting to Heaven, while there seems to be some doubt for those who are tested by the Orthodox Toll Houses. Nevertheless, the two concepts seem to have much in common. Might they be different ways of describing the same intermediate state?

 

[JM]

I sent a pm instead of posting.

Peace

 

[HTacianas]

I suspect that most all of you here will disagree with the implication in my thread, but it seems to me that there is not all that much difference between the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory. Both provide some form of testing or trial before entrance into Heaven is possible, with perhaps the exception of some saints. Now, one difference appears to be that all of those in the Catholic Purgatory are assured of eventually getting to Heaven, while there seems to be some doubt for those who are tested by the Orthodox Toll Houses. Nevertheless, the two concepts seem to have much in common. Might they be different ways of describing the same intermediate state?

To answer your question, yes. They are "variations on a theme". I personally do not hold to the belief in toll houses but I hope for a purgatory. An intermediate state created by the mercy of God to further instruct us on the proper behavior in heaven.

 

[Basil the Great]

I sent a pm instead of posting.

Peace

Many thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, the toll houses teaching is nothing like purgatory. toll houses are an occurrence, not a third condition of the soul. you can't get time reduced in the toll houses, since you are past the temporal timeframe. the toll houses are for everyone, not just the saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

To answer your question, yes. They are "variations on a theme". I personally do not hold to the belief in toll houses but I hope for a purgatory. An intermediate state created by the mercy of God to further instruct us on the proper behavior in heaven.

there is no purgatory, our saints have attested it's heresy.

 

[Basil the Great]

Thanks for the clarification. I did not know that toll houses are for everyone.

 

[Not David]

I suspect that most all of you here will disagree with the implication in my thread, but it seems to me that there is not all that much difference between the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory. Both provide some form of testing or trial before entrance into Heaven is possible, with perhaps the exception of some saints. Now, one difference appears to be that all of those in the Catholic Purgatory are assured of eventually getting to Heaven, while there seems to be some doubt for those who are tested by the Orthodox Toll Houses. Nevertheless, the two concepts seem to have much in common. Might they be different ways of describing the same intermediate state?

Careful with those people who say Toll-houses are a "Neo gnostic concept".

 

[Not David]

there is no purgatory, our saints have attested it's heresy.

How do people get purged from sins, Father?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How do people get purged from sins, Father?

the Presence of God, and He is a consuming fire.

 

[Not David]

the Presence of God, and He is a consuming fire.

So Orthodox don't believe in mortal/venial sins?

 

[ArmyMatt]

and I will add the toll houses are the demons flattering, threatening, and deceiving the soul, unlike Purgatory.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So Orthodox don't believe in mortal/venial sins?

people have and can, it just depends on what you mean.

 

[Not David]

people have and can, it just depends on what you mean.

The Roman definition?

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Roman definition?

that would be an erroneous understanding.

 

[Not David]

that would be an erroneous understanding.

Why?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why?

because the only mortal sin is the one not repented of, whatever it might be.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What strikes me (and not to step on toes Father - of course you'd know better) ...

But what strikes me is that if we closely observe souls and how they are affected, is the realization that there is a dynamic between a person, and sin, and I'm not sure what all else.

What I mean is that at a certain point, a person can commit a particular sin. I'll use what many would consider a mild example. Say they take home a pen from work - a very "venial" sin from a Catholic definition. It might be that such a sin barely deserves remembering, so is not really repented of, and is not mentioned in confession or even in personal prayers. And the person is not seriously damaged by that sin.

(In fact, we might easily commit a number of sins of this degree and not be truly affected by them as individual sins - though I think a pattern of such "minor" sins and accepting them as minor could potentially lead to hardening oneself and potentially moving away from repentance.)

But ... my point is that the same person at a different point spiritually could commit the same sin - purposely and willingly choosing to steal a small item - and this can represent a HUGE disobedience against God and a rejection of Him - at least temporarily. It can be a very damaging sin, one that has an effect on the souls of "mortal sin" proportions. The actual sin might be the same, but because of differences in the person they are affected differently, and they desperately need to repent.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough. My point is that while I admire the intention behind the effort of Catholicism to make a distinction between serious and lesser sins, in fact it CAN depend on the person.

Some of the Saints who enjoy the ongoing grace of God fear even allowing the first dart of the enemy in a suggestion of sin to the thoughts, because they know how likely they might lose that experience of Grace simply for allowing that thought to reach the point of being recognized, which of course happens continually to almost all people and isn't even truly sin for them.

And between the extremes we can be at various points. So I think there can be errors made if we assume this sin or that always has a given magnitude.

Just thinking through this a bit.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What strikes me (and not to step on toes Father - of course you'd know better) ...

But what strikes me is that if we closely observe souls and how they are affected, is the realization that there is a dynamic between a person, and sin, and I'm not sure what all else.

What I mean is that at a certain point, a person can commit a particular sin. I'll use what many would consider a mild example. Say they take home a pen from work - a very "venial" sin from a Catholic definition. It might be that such a sin barely deserves remembering, so is not really repented of, and is not mentioned in confession or even in personal prayers. And the person is not seriously damaged by that sin.

(In fact, we might easily commit a number of sins of this degree and not be truly affected by them as individual sins - though I think a pattern of such "minor" sins and accepting them as minor could potentially lead to hardening oneself and potentially moving away from repentance.)

But ... my point is that the same person at a different point spiritually could commit the same sin - purposely and willingly choosing to steal a small item - and this can represent a HUGE disobedience against God and a rejection of Him - at least temporarily. It can be a very damaging sin, one that has an effect on the souls of "mortal sin" proportions. The actual sin might be the same, but because of differences in the person they are affected differently, and they desperately need to repent.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough. My point is that while I admire the intention behind the effort of Catholicism to make a distinction between serious and lesser sins, in fact it CAN depend on the person.

Some of the Saints who enjoy the ongoing grace of God fear even allowing the first dart of the enemy in a suggestion of sin to the thoughts, because they know how likely they might lose that experience of Grace simply for allowing that thought to reach the point of being recognized, which of course happens continually to almost all people and isn't even truly sin for them.

And between the extremes we can be at various points. So I think there can be errors made if we assume this sin or that always has a given magnitude.

Just thinking through this a bit.

no toes were stepped on, I don't see anything I disagree with here.

 

[~Anastasia~]

no toes were stepped on, I don't see anything I disagree with here.

Thank you Father. I just don't like to push into a conversation with someone asking a priest a question. It's a little different on discussion boards maybe, but still.