Mid Tribulation Rapture vs. Post Tribulation Rapture

[MarkRohfrietsch]

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Stipulations:

1. ) Title:
Mid vs. Post Tribulation Raptrue

2.) Participants;

• mark kennedy: Mid Tribulation Rapture

• zeke37: Post Tribulation Rapture
  

3.)Number of rounds:
Three Rounds; each party makes three alternating posts, that would equal a debate with three rounds. Upon discussion in the thread Mid Trib vs Post Trib, and by mutual agreement of the participants, a specified number of additional rounds may be added.

4) Posts will be made alternating and the Mid Tribulation Rapture position goes first.

5) Time limit between posts:
One week; that means within one week of initial post, the opposing position needs to reply. The post can be made earlier, of course.

6)Length of posts:
Posts will be limited to the maximum length that CF's software allows for a single post; only one post per round

7) Quotes and References are allowed; Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.

9) The start date of the debate:Monday Jan. 16,2012.

Link to Peanut Gallery here: PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Mid vs Post Tribulation Rapture

 

[mark kennedy]

I'd like to start by thanking zeke37 for agreeing to this debate. Before we get started it's important to realize that there is no doctrinal difference between the resurrection happening before, during or after the Tribulation. Our blessed hope is in the last enemy being defeated (I Cor. 20-26), at the last trump (I Cor. 15:52), in the twinkling of the eye (I Thess. 4:17), that is, the redemption of the purchase price (Eph. 1:13,14). What is more I don't believe that the positions on when the Rapture happens are mutually exclusive but that they are complimentary views. I have grown spiritually and benefited greatly from the study of the great body of work known as Dispensationalism, the writings of Hal Linsey and Dwight Pentecost come to mind. Early in my studies many years ago I remember reading 'Latest Word on the Last Days' by C.S. Lovett, a book that left a lasting impression, so Covenant theology has been a great influence on my thinking as well.

For the opening post I have decided that Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse is the best place to start. I will be brief since I do not regard this topic as being especially complicated, the problem is that the exact time of the Rapture is remarkably ambiguous. Jesus warns against false Messiahs in the discussion of Matt 24:1-14, a period I believe to be events surrounding the opening of the seals. With Matt 14:9 the Lord tells us that the climax of this troubled time is 'the abomination that causes desolation', (Danial 9:27; 11:31; 12:11) where the Antichrist (AKA the Beast from the Land) erects an idol made in his image. His advice to believers living in that time is to flee Jerusalem just as fast as they can go. This happens in the chronological center of the 7 year tribulation beginning the what has come to be known as the 'Great Tribulation' that will culminate in the pouring out of the Vials of Wrath.

When Jesus describes the 'abomination that causes desolation', aka the Great Tribulation. Notice that the last trumpet is right in the middle of the Tribulation, at the same time the Two Witnesses are raised and this coincides with the trampling of Jerusalem effectively ending the times of the Gentiles. Then Jesus has this to say, now mind you, we are right in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation:

Immediately after the distress of those days... (Matt. 24:29a)​

The heavens are struck at this point because of the judgments of the 7 Trumpets. I will elaborate more on this later but there are things that overlap here. The 4 angels that are bound in the Euphrates (sixth trumpet), the heavens struck (4th trumpet), the sounding of the last trumpet which account for Jesus' description of cataclysms, the reign of Christ proclaimed (seventh trumpet) and then:

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matt. 24:31)​

In this discourse Jesus is describing the Rapture, Parosia and the event that marks the middle of the Tribulation are all in the immediate context. At this point I'm going to cut it short since the subject matter and proof texts are not extensive.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zeke37]

I'd like to start by thanking zeke37 for agreeing to this debate.

thank you mod-Mark for setting it up,
thank you too Mark kennedy.
I will be referencing from the KJV.

Before we get started it's important to realize that there is no doctrinal difference between the resurrection happening before, during or after the Tribulation.

not sure what you mean there.
the difference is in the timing of His Coming.
for me, it is important to teach the "church" that we are all going to be here for everything.

Our blessed hope is in the last enemy being defeated (I Cor. 20-26),

you left out a reference 1Cor ? :20-26
did you mean this?

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
​

but i found this about the blessed hope.

Tit2:10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
​

at the last trump (I Cor. 15:52),

I contend that the trump of Mat24/Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15 and Rev11 are one in the same.
the dead are raised in all of them.

now, maybe you do too, but u just think that it occurs mid trib.
i don't understand how tho.

in the twinkling of the eye (I Thess. 4:17),

the twinkling of an eye is not mentioned in 1Thes4.
that much is evident from the scripture.

I use Dr. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
for definitions of Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic words in the bible.
i do not rely on the english translations, because many of them (most) are incorrect.

but we can see here in 1Thes4 that the dead in Christ come from heaven with God
and are rasied here before any gathering occurs.

then after they are raised, we who are alive and which remain unto the COMING of the Lord, shall be seized (harpazo'd) by the Lord.
not "caught up". up is not even mentioned at all.

and shall be changed (aer=synonmy for pneuma)

and gathered together with them in the clouds of heaven
(mass multitudes as Paul describes in Heb12:1, see Mat24 and Rev1's clouds of heaven)

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

the change that occurs from flesh to spirit, at His Coming,
happens in the twinkling of an eye.

flesh and blood cannot inherrit the Kingdom of God,
hence the change from flesh to spirit that occurs at His Coming
described both above in 1Thes4, and below in 1Cor15

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
​

that is, the redemption of the purchase price (Eph. 1:13,14).

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
​

What is more I don't believe that the positions on when the Rapture happens are mutually exclusive but that they are complimentary views.

how is that Mark?
to a post tribber, it's easy...
Either He comes before, during or after the trib.
we see after, not before or during.

I have grown spiritually and benefited greatly from the study of the great body of work known as Dispensationalism, the writings of Hal Linsey and Dwight Pentecost come to mind. Early in my studies many years ago I remember reading 'Latest Word on the Last Days' by C.S. Lovett, a book that left a lasting impression, so Covenant theology has been a great influence on my thinking as well.

i disagree wholey with the thought that God is going to deal with the Jews seperately, at seperate times,
from us who believe in Christ.

For the opening post I have decided that Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse is the best place to start. I will be brief since I do not regard this topic as being especially complicated, the problem is that the exact time of the Rapture is remarkably ambiguous.

I disagree, the dead are raised.

Jesus warns against false Messiahs in the discussion of Matt 24:1-14, a period I believe to be events surrounding the opening of the seals. With Matt 14:9 the Lord tells us that the climax of this troubled time is 'the abomination that causes desolation', (Danial 9:27; 11:31; 12:11) where the Antichrist (AKA the Beast from the Land) erects an idol made in his image. His advice to believers living in that time is to flee Jerusalem just as fast as they can go. This happens in the chronological center of the 7 year tribulation beginning the what has come to be known as the 'Great Tribulation' that will culminate in the pouring out of the Vials of Wrath.

Rev is not chronological. sure it has chronological sections...but it is not wholey.

there are, from what I can see, 7 "scenes"...criss-crossing each other..
i think the 5th trump is the entire length of the trib.

When Jesus describes the 'abomination that causes desolation', aka the Great Tribulation.

the A of D is not the great tribulation itself, but it is during it.

Notice that the last trumpet is right in the middle of the Tribulation,

you lost me.

at the same time the Two Witnesses are raised and this coincides with the trampling of Jerusalem effectively ending the times of the Gentiles.

-they are raised at His Coming. so this raising is Post trib.
-as we can see, at the 7th trump that is immidiately explained, it is the time of the dead.
-Rev is not linear.
-the only reference in Rev is 42 months (time/times/half a time)
not 7 years.

do you think the time of the dead is mid trib?
because from John's gospel we know that the dead are raised on the last day.

Then Jesus has this to say, now mind you, we are right in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation:

Immediately after the distress of those days... (Matt. 24:29a)
​

you only assume it is in the middle Brother.
I say it is at the end, after the tribulation.
Jesus just described the tribulation before.
that is when the false Christ comes...to deceive if it were possible, the very elect.

The heavens are struck at this point because of the judgments of the 7 Trumpets. I will elaborate more on this later but there are things that overlap here. The 4 angels that are bound in the Euphrates (sixth trumpet), the heavens struck (4th trumpet), the sounding of the last trumpet which account for Jesus' description of cataclysms, the reign of Christ proclaimed (seventh trumpet) and then:

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matt. 24:31)
​

In this discourse Jesus is describing the Rapture, Parosia and the event that marks the middle of the Tribulation are all in the immediate context. At this point I'm going to cut it short since the subject matter and proof texts are not extensive.

Grace and peace,
Mark

i couldn't disagree with you more Mark.
this is the end of the trib, not the middle of it.
the dead are gathered from both heaven and earth.

and since we are in Mat24,

13Buthe that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.




21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.




37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



​

 

[mark kennedy]

not sure what you mean there....the difference is in the timing of His Coming...for me, it is important to teach the "church" that we are all going to be here for everything.

Whether it is before, during or after the 7 year Tribulation the Gospel teaches the resurrection (translation, rapture) of believers whether it's pre, mid or a post trib. rapture, that's what I mean.

I contend that the trump of Mat24/Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15 and Rev11 are one in the same.

I would agree that Matthew 24:30,31, Mark 13:26,27, I Thess. 4:15-17, I Cor. 15:52 are the Parosia and the rapture of the Church. However, they are 'immediately' after the 'abomination that causes desolation'.

Immediately - εὐθέως eutheo's means, properly, "straightway, immediately Matthew 8:3; Matthew 13:5; Mark 1:31; Acts 12:10 (Barnes)​

This occurs at the sounding of the last trumpet:

With a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:31)​

the dead are raised in all of them...now, maybe you do too, but u just think that it occurs mid trib...i don't understand how tho.

You just cited the primary proof texts.

but we can see here in 1Thes4 that the dead in Christ come from heaven with God and are rasied here before any gathering occurs.

The resurrection (translation, rapture) of the Church happens at the Parosia and it is the gathering.

then after they are raised, we who are alive and which remain unto the COMING of the Lord, shall be seized (harpazo'd) by the Lord.
not "caught up". up is not even mentioned at all.

This just says that those who died physically 'in Christ', will be raised first, then those who have not died physically will undergo the same transformation.

and gathered together with them in the clouds of heaven
(mass multitudes as Paul describes in Heb12:1, see Mat24 and Rev1's clouds of heaven)

Yes, this is the same event.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I kept Eph. 1:13,14 quote because it's one of the most concise expressions of the Gospel and the hope of salvation in Scripture and there's a point to be made here.

how is that Mark?
to a post tribber, it's easy...
Either He comes before, during or after the trib.
we see after, not before or during.

How is what exactly? We all believe in the translation of the Church and disagree only as to when it actually occurs. We do not need to, nor to we have the means to know exactly when in occurs and the Lord is clear on this point. Also, we see 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation', which is 1260 days into the Tribulation, the rapture by an exposition of the texts you alluded to earlier. Those passages refer to the Parosia and Rapture 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation'. It's important to realize here, the Antichrist (Beast from the Land) knows exactly what is going on here and intends to win the final battle.

i disagree wholey with the thought that God is going to deal with the Jews seperately, at seperate times,
from us who believe in Christ.

As believers or unbelievers Jews are treated exactly the same as Gentiles, in fact, there is no difference. However, with regards to the the Tribulation they are distinctive with regards to God's prophetic revelation both in Danial and in the Revelation.

For the opening post I have decided that Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse is the best place to start. I will be brief since I do not regard this topic as being especially complicated, the problem is that the exact time of the Rapture is remarkably ambiguous.

I disagree, the dead are raised.

I never said they were not, your response doesn't make any sense. We are not debated whether or not the dead are raised, only when.

]Rev is not chronological. sure it has chronological sections...but it is not wholey.

We can get into that in the final round, clearly, we have a major difference of opinion on that one.

there are, from what I can see, 7 "scenes"...criss-crossing each other..
i think the 5th trump is the entire length of the trib.

Nothing in the Revelation indicates an overlapping description. At the end of the seals the Trumpets start, at the end Trumpets the Vials of Wrath start. It even gives a specific amount of days:

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3)​

They prophecy for 3 1/2 years, then they are killed and then they are raised from the dead. This is right at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the 'last trumpet' and 'immediately' after the abomination that causes desolation'. That is clearly chronological to me, especially given the character of the prophecies in Danial 12 that were literally fulfilled, in chronological order, right up till the final 7 years.

the A of D is not the great tribulation itself, but it is during it.

It's the end of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) and starts the Great Tribulation (as it has come to be called) which is the second 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation.

you lost me.

The 'last trumpet' and the rapture happen at the same time, thought it was pretty straight forward.

-they are raised at His Coming. so this raising is Post trib.
-as we can see, at the 7th trump that is immidiately explained, it is the time of the dead.
-Rev is not linear.
-the only reference in Rev is 42 months (time/times/half a time)
not 7 years.

do you think the time of the dead is mid trib?
because from John's gospel we know that the dead are raised on the last day.

I'll give you a clear sequence of events in my closing post, Revelations is both linear and clearly a seven year period for reasons I will explain in my exposition.

you only assume it is in the middle Brother.
I say it is at the end, after the tribulation.
Jesus just described the tribulation before.
that is when the false Christ comes...to deceive if it were possible, the very elect.

This is the 'Antichrist', aka the False Prophet or the Beast from the Earth:

Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. (Rev. 13:11, 12)​

and since we are in Mat24,

13Buthe that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ​

None of that is inconsistent with a mid-tribulation rapture.

For my final post I will give you the best exposition of the Revelation I can in the space allowed. The Rapture happening right in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation fits perfectly into the description as written, while the Rapture before or after the Tribulation doesn't. I will expand and explain further in my final post and you can respond as you see fit. If, after that you feel further rounds are required then feel free to contact me through a PM.

Grace and peace,
Mark​

 

[zeke37]

Whether it is before, during or after the 7 year Tribulation the Gospel teaches the resurrection (translation, rapture) of believers whether it's pre, mid or a post trib. rapture, that's what I mean.

I would agree that Matthew 24:30,31, Mark 13:26,27, I Thess. 4:15-17, I Cor. 15:52 are the Parosia and the rapture of the Church. However, they are 'immediately' after the 'abomination that causes desolation'.

Mat24:15-28 covers "time"...
it is not "immidiate"
but immidiately after the tribulation of those days, then He shall come.

in Rev11 it is also the "time of the dead",
so if the dead are raised and a trump is mentioned,
it is the same event

dead raised on the last day first, and then the rapture.

This occurs at the sounding of the last trumpet:

With a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

yep. that's the same one in Rev11.
..and it is post trib, after the tribulation of those days,
not immidiately after the A of D.

You just cited the primary proof texts.

and there is no mid trib in them.
the dead are brought from heaven and are raised.
how does that occur mid trib?
John teaches that it is on the "last day" (John 6)

The resurrection (translation, rapture) of the Church happens at the Parosia and it is the gathering.

the dead are brought from heaven by Christ at His Coming, 1Thes4:13-16
and raised here, as promised to them in scripture.
they are raised on the last day, as John 6,11,12 teach

the last day is not ,mid trib
therefore the gathering to Christ is not mid trib
because it occurs on the last day after the dead are raised.

even Dan12

9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
​

so there is a difference in when the A of D is set up
and when folks are "blessed" for waiting past that point.
if we were raptured just when it is set up, we would not have to wait.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
​

even Daniel is told that he will rise at the end of the days.

This just says that those who died physically 'in Christ', will be raised first, then those who have not died physically will undergo the same transformation.

Yes, and the change to those who are alive and remain (when gathered to Christ)
happens after the dead are raised on the last day.

How is what exactly?

how do you think that post trib and mid trib not mutually exclusive
but rather complimentary?

We all believe in the translation of the Church and disagree only as to when it actually occurs. We do not need to, nor to we have the means to know exactly when in occurs and the Lord is clear on this point.

some folks disagree with that, and believe that
we shall know the signs/season of His Coming
but we shall never know the time that the heavens and earth pass away.

we don't know the year of Christ's Coming...
but we should be able to read the signs and realize it when it is here.

Also, we see 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation', which is 1260 days into the Tribulation, the rapture by an exposition of the texts you alluded to earlier. Those passages refer to the Parosia and Rapture 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation'. It's important to realize here, the Antichrist (Beast from the Land) knows exactly what is going on here and intends to win the final battle.

it is not immidiately after the A of D.
Mat24:15-28 covers some "time"
Dan12 proves a blessing in store for some, some time after it is set up.

As believers or unbelievers Jews are treated exactly the same as Gentiles, in fact, there is no difference. However, with regards to the the Tribulation they are distinctive with regards to God's prophetic revelation both in Danial and in the Revelation.

they will not be "dealt with" any differently...Jesus is the only way.
IOW, God will not reinstate an acceptible sacrificial system for them.
i totally reject that line of thought,
as well as the thought of any "third temple" needed to fulfill scrpiture.
Paul teaches that God does not reside in building made of bricks in Acts12
and that "we" are the temple of God 4 times in a row in Corinthians,
and then he, Paul, says what he does in 2Thes2.
so why would it mean a literal temple and not "us"?

I never said they were not, your response doesn't make any sense. We are not debated whether or not the dead are raised, only when.

I am trying to drive home the point of "when" the dead are raised.
we know that the "rapture" is after that time.
and the dead are rasied on the last day.
John6/11/12.

Rev is not chronological. sure it has chronological sections...but it is not wholey.
​

We can get into that in the final round, clearly, we have a major difference of opinion on that one.
Nothing in the Revelation indicates an overlapping description.

sure there is. but as you said, next post.

At the end of the seals the Trumpets start, at the end Trumpets the Vials of Wrath start. It even gives a specific amount of days:

seals are not actions...they are information, like in the OT
trumpets are the call to action, like in the OT

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3)
​

They prophecy for 3 1/2 years, then they are killed and then they are raised from the dead. This is right at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the 'last trumpet' and 'immediately' after the abomination that causes desolation'. That is clearly chronological to me, especially given the character of the prophecies in Danial 12 that were literally fulfilled, in chronological order, right up till the final 7 years.

7 years is not mentioned in Rev at all, although some assume it.
Rev11 is chronological.
i never said it wasn't.
but other parts of Rev that come after Rev11,
cover details of the same 42 month trib,
like found in both Rev12 and 13.


the gathering to Christ is not immidiately after the A of D.
it is immidiately after the tribulation of "those days" (Mat24:29-31)

It's the end of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) and starts the Great Tribulation (as it has come to be called) which is the second 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation.

fiction.

we agree that the A of D starts the last 42 months before the Coming of the Lord.
and His Coming is after the dead are raised on the last day.

you lost me.
​

The 'last trumpet' and the rapture happen at the same time, thought it was pretty straight forward.

ya, but you said it was in the middle of the (7 year) tribulation.
so you lost me.

it is not in the middle.
it is after the dead are brought from heaven and raised here
and that is on the last day.

I'll give you a clear sequence of events in my closing post, Revelations is both linear and clearly a seven year period for reasons I will explain in my exposition.

the dead are raised on the last day,
and the rapture has to be after that raising.
that has to "thwart" mid trib right there....doesn't it?

This is the 'Antichrist', aka the False Prophet or the Beast from the Earth:

Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. (Rev. 13:11, 12)
​

yep. the mouthpiece of the (political) first beast.
this is during the 42 months...

so, in Rev11, the beast....42 months
in Rev12 we learn who the "beast" is and what he generally is going to do in that same time/times/half a time.

he will persecute the ones who hold the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
thereis no other group that does that but Christians.

in Rev13 we see specifics of what the beast does, and that includes
looking like a lamb,
overcoming "saints",
doing supposed miracles
being worshiped as God

the NT teaches us who the "saints" of God are today.
it is a simple bible search to see that "Christians" are the saints of the NT.

None of that is inconsistent with a mid-tribulation rapture.

how is being evacuated "mid", enduring to the end?

Jesus is Coming here...forever.
He is staying here....forever
we stay here with Him, here....forever
we do not leave for heaven.

For my final post I will give you the best exposition of the Revelation I can in the space allowed. The Rapture happening right in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation fits perfectly into the description as written, while the Rapture before or after the Tribulation doesn't. I will expand and explain further in my final post and you can respond as you see fit. If, after that you feel further rounds are required then feel free to contact me through a PM.

Grace and peace,
Mark

ok Mark.
but coming out the gate, you know i don't buy that.

Rev5:13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
​

has verse 13 happened yet?
if not then Rev is NOT totally chronological.

Rev11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
​

so wrath time...
and yet Rev12 is Satan's wrath, not God's.
infact the wrath of God is not detailed until Rev16.

but either way, if Rev was chronological then the wrath is poured out
the plagues have come right?

then, what do you make of Rev18?

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
​

Babylon falls first, and then receives the plagues...
the "great" trib is NOT the wrath of God.
Rev is obviously NOT totally chronological.

 

[mark kennedy]

There is a recurring theme in the Revelation, God's wrath on the powers and principalities that are destroying the earth. Jesus opens the Revelation with a message to Ephesus et al because these churches in Asian minor were the hub of the mission to the Gentiles. Paul had spent three and a half years there during his second missionary journey and from these 'seed' churches to the uttermost parts of the world. This is a rough idea of the imagery used to identify the church in the opening pages of the Revelation, not 7 churches but a sevenfold church.

The Revelation was not just to these churches but to all believers throughout redemptive history before and since. One of the things I believe the Revelation is telling us in no uncertain terms is that the Church will face the wrath of the Antichrist. Jesus warns that his servants will suffer persecution for their testimony regarding the Word of God. We are told to jump and shout and leap for joy since they persecuted the prophets, who were before us, in the very same way. It is for this reason that I do not believe that the Rapture happens before the tribulation starts.

Now the other mainstream option of course is that it happens after the 7 year tribulation. The main reason I have a problem with a post-tribuation Rapture is this verse:

Immediately after the distress of those days:

'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give it's light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken'

The time 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation' (AD)is 1260 days or 3 1/2 years (Rev. 11:3). Following the death of the Two Witnesses (which is before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet) the 'Woman who bore the Child' flees the wrath of the Antichrist for another 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years (Rev. 12:6). During this time following the AD the Antichrist is empowered for his infamous, blasphemous, bloody rampage (Rev. 13:5). My problem is simply this, I really don't see how 'immediately' means 42 months later, after the rampage of the Antichrist and the outpouring of the vials of wrath.

Immediately after the distress of those days (Matt. 24:29)...then will appear the sign of the Son of Man (Matt 24:30)...and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will father his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matt 24:31).​

This 'trumpet', in my admittedly unconventional opinion, is the 7th Trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15-19). This occurs almost exactly in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation and I have yet to encounter an exposition of the requisite texts indicating otherwise. This concludes the heart of my argument for a mid-tribulation Rapture. I have no axe to grind and certainly bear no animosity against those holding the opposing views, I honestly just disagree with no qualms or resentment attached.

My opponent has raised some interesting but unconvincing arguments, I will use the balance of my space left addressing as many as I can:

Mat24:15-28 covers "time"...
it is not "immidiate" but immidiately after the tribulation of those days, in Rev11 it is also the "time of the dead",
so if the dead are raised and a trump is mentioned, it is the same event dead raised on the last day first, and then the rapture.

The word 'tribulation' in Matt. 24:21 and Matt. 24:29 are the same word, 'thilipsis' and is used a number of different ways. Easton give us the most concise definition I can find but there are others:

Tribulation: trouble or affiction of any kind (Deu 4:30; Mat 13:21; 2Cr 7:4). In Rom 2:9 "tribulation and anguish" are the penal sufferings that shall overtake the wicked. In Mat 24:21, 29, the word denotes the calamities that were to attend the destruction of Jerusalem. (Easton's Bible Dictionary, see BLB entry in the link)​

To put it clearly, 'immediately' is in reference to the days 'immediately' following the AD. The 'tribulation' mentioned is a reference to 'affliction', not really indicating the end of the 7 year tribulation period:

The word is used generally of the hardships which Christ’s followers would suffer (Mt 13:21; 24:9,21,29; Mr 4:17; 13:19,24; Joh 16:33; 1Co 7:28); or which they are now passing through (Ro 5:3; 12:12; 2Co 4:17; Php 4:14); or through which they have already come (Ac 11:19; 2Co 2:4; Re 7:14). (Vine's Dictionary, linked above)​

yep. that's the same one in Rev11...and it is post trib, after the tribulation of those days, not immidiately after the A of D.

Revelations 11 is exactly half way through the 7 year tribulation, so is the AD. The 'days' being referred to are not the 1,260 days following the AD but the days of affliction 'immediately' following the AD. The context is sufficiently clear to warrant when taken in context. This 'day' you keep talking about is the day that the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of Christ (Rev. 11:15), which is the 'day' the seventh trumpet is sounded, which is exactly 3 1/2 years into the 7 year tribulation.

I'm going to have to leave it there, just got too busy to do the complete exposition I had planned. The truth is that I am working on a far more elaborate exposition of the Revelation and I'm just so busy right now. I would like to explore the subject further with you if your interested in expanding the exposition later. As far as the debate, I'm pretty sure we have covered the bulk of the proof texts involved.

Thank you for the exchange and I hope to have the chance to discuss these things and develop the exposition more fully.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zeke37]

There is a recurring theme in the Revelation, God's wrath on the powers and principalities that are destroying the earth.

-well, the trumpets and seals are not the wrath of God.
-the wrath begins at the last day, not during the trib.
the plagues of God only come after babylon has fallen

and yet before the plagues come, but after Babylon has fallen,
God calls His people out of Babylon.
Rev18:4

-the 7 golden candlesticks is defined by Jesus in Rev1 as the 7 churches...
that's us.
He is in the midst

in Rev2-3, the 7 are individually defined.
2 are not chastized as the other 5 are.
those same 2 also share the same doctrine,
that the others do not have.
Smyrna and Philadelphia.

so in the Minorah pic you have above,
i would move Smyrna and Philadelphia, one to each end, for a reason.

Zec4 has something to add to the Minorah understanding
as we learn that the olive trees/branches feed the oil into the 2 ends of the minorah,
and the oil moves from the two end candles, towards the middle

but in Rev11, we see that there are only 2 candlesticks of 7.
5 of the 7 receive no oil...they are not lit...
i link that with the apostasy of 2Thes2/1Tim4

what this does show is that the "church"
already defined by God as "candlesticks"
is here against the beast in Rev11

"candlesticks" is used only one other time.
so the mentioning of "candlesticks" in Rev11
has to be relevant to the definition in Rev1-3, right?

The main reason I have a problem with a post-tribuation Rapture is this verse:

Immediately after the distress of those days:

'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give it's light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken'

The time 'immediately' following the 'abomination that causes desolation' (AD)is 1260 days or 3 1/2 years (Rev. 11:3).

there is a political movement first, lasting possibly 3.5 years
and then the religious part

Following the death of the Two Witnesses (which is before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet) the 'Woman who bore the Child' flees the wrath of the Antichrist for another 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years (Rev. 12:6).

no.
Rev12:6 doesn't say another

During this time following the AD the Antichrist is empowered for his infamous, blasphemous, bloody rampage (Rev. 13:5). My problem is simply this, I really don't see how 'immediately' means 42 months later, after the rampage of the Antichrist and the outpouring of the vials of wrath.

Immediately after the distress of those days (Matt. 24:29)...then will appear the sign of the Son of Man (Matt 24:30)...and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will father his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matt 24:31).
​

according to some,
the A of D happens at the mid point of the 7 years.
i have no problem with that.

but nothing suggests that the A of D happens
and then immidiately after the A of D is set up, Jesus comes.
no.
the time inbetween the A of D being set up
and the Coming of the Lord taught in Mat24:15-28...
and it is not immidiate, as in the same day.

it is a bunch of days, not one day
so when i read that, i note that the A of D happens
and clearly there is "time" inbetween the A of D and the Coming of the Lord.
Mat24:15-28
and then folks have to flee to the mountains...
persecution hits....
and a shortened time...(IMO from 3.5 years to 5 months)

but the unshortened time in Rev is only ever 3.5 years...not 7

Rev11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

​

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.​

all through scripture, prophesy that is given in months and moons
are about the bad guys
prophesy given in days and years are about the good guys

and remember that candlesticks is defined by God as churches

Rev12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
​

all these time references speak of the same time...
either about the good guys in years or days,
or the bad guys in months

This 'trumpet', in my admittedly unconventional opinion, is the 7th Trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15-19).

i agree...it is the time of the dead in both...
gathered from heaven AND earth. Mar13
that's the last day (John 6/11)

This occurs almost exactly in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation

it happens immidiately after the dead are raised back here
so it has to be the last day.

and I have yet to encounter an exposition of the requisite texts indicating otherwise.

ok, if the "rapture" happens after the dead in Christ
are brought from heaven with the Lord at His Coming,
and raised here. 1Thes4
and the dead are raised on the last day, John6/11
then how is that mid trib?
it just cannot be.

if it were as you say, then according to 1Thes4
there will the the righteous dead walking the earth
during your supposed 2nd half.

i hope i explained that well properly

This concludes the heart of my argument for a mid-tribulation Rapture. I have no axe to grind and certainly bear no animosity against those holding the opposing views, I honestly just disagree with no qualms or resentment attached.

cool. great attitude.

as long as we are both clear on our positions, no problems with me either

My opponent has raised some interesting but unconvincing arguments, I will use the balance of my space left addressing as many as I can:

The word 'tribulation' in Matt. 24:21 and Matt. 24:29 are the same word, 'thilipsis' and is used a number of different ways. Easton give us the most concise definition I can find but there are others:

Tribulation: trouble or affiction of any kind (Deu 4:30; Mat 13:21; 2Cr 7:4). In Rom 2:9 "tribulation and anguish" are the penal sufferings that shall overtake the wicked. In Mat 24:21, 29, the word denotes the calamities that were to attend the destruction of Jerusalem. (Easton's Bible Dictionary, see BLB entry in the link)
​

i do not believe that Mat 24 refers to any time in the past.

To put it clearly, 'immediately' is in reference to the days 'immediately' following the AD. The 'tribulation' mentioned is a reference to 'affliction', not really indicating the end of the 7 year tribulation period:

the "days" are defined...15-28...
they are not IMMIDIATELY after the A of D

the A of D is day one...
the Lord returns a time/times/half a time after that.
shortened for the elect's sake to less.

but still not immmidiately after the A of D is set up.
the A of D stays "up" for a length of time first,
and then the Lord returns

Revelations 11 is exactly half way through the 7 year tribulation, so is the AD.

ok, the way i see it is thus;
there are 2 stages to the end times.

the first half is purely political...Satan is not here yet
but his spirit is getting things ready for "his" coming.
that is the first half of the 7 years
although 7 years is not defined as such in Rev.
most get it from Daniel,
but I see the rise of the political beast (first beast in Rev13)_
as covering this time

at the middle of the 7 years, the A of D happens.
that marks what the Mat24 and Rev11 passages are defining time wise...
they cover the last half...not the first.

Rev13 covers both (two beasts/mouth)

The 'days' being referred to are not the 1,260 days following the AD but the days of affliction 'immediately' following the AD.

same thing...

The context is sufficiently clear to warrant when taken in context. This 'day' you keep talking about is the day that the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of Christ (Rev. 11:15), which is the 'day' the seventh trumpet is sounded,

so far we agree...

which is exactly 3 1/2 years into the 7 year tribulation.

no..it is the end of the time period
call the trib 3.5 or 7 years...what ever...
ex. if you understand that the tribulation is 2 x 3.5 years,
then this is at the 2nd half, the end, that Christ comes
not at the end of the first half (which would be in the middle of the 7)
why? because the dead in Christ are raised...here
it's the time of the dead.
so it has to be the last day...not mid trib.

I'm going to have to leave it there, just got too busy to do the complete exposition I had planned. The truth is that I am working on a far more elaborate exposition of the Revelation and I'm just so busy right now. I would like to explore the subject further with you if your interested in expanding the exposition later. As far as the debate, I'm pretty sure we have covered the bulk of the proof texts involved.

Thank you for the exchange and I hope to have the chance to discuss these things and develop the exposition more fully.

Grace and peace,
Mark

well, i still have not received an adequate answer IMO
in regards to the dead in Christ being raised here on the last day...
Mat24/Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Rev11...John6/11
that has to thwart your mid trib understanding right there, doesn't it?
because we are gathered after the dead are raised back here as promised

anyway, thank you too Mark.
you are very respectfull debator

any time Bro.

look for a new thread that i am going to start
on this subject of what happens on the last day.

may we all who seek, find the truth.