Micah Challenge

inquisitor_11

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G'day all,
As you can see below, the Micah Challenge is an opportunity for christians and the church at large to be prophetic, and call our governments to maintain their commitment to the Millenium Development Goals.

I really want to encourage as many people as possible to support the Micah Challenge, as it is a positive and constructive way for christians to make this aspect of the good news an issue (you don't even have to do anything difficult!).

http://www.micahchallenge.org/home/intro.asp

"...what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God" - Micah 6:8

The Micah Call
This is a moment in history of unique potential,
when the stated intentions of world leaders
echo something of the mind of the Biblical prophets
and the teachings of Jesus concerning the poor, and
when we have the means to dramatically reduce poverty.

We commit ourselves, as followers of Jesus,
to work together for the holistic transformation of our communities, to pursue justice, be passionate about kindness and to walk humbly with God.

We call on international and national decision-makers
of both rich and poor nations, to fulfil their public promise
to achieve the Millennium Development Goals
and so halve absolute global poverty by 2015.

We call on Christians everywhere to be agents of hope
for and with the poor, and to work with others
to hold our national and global leaders accountable
in securing a more just and merciful world.
 

Sharp

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Rush Limbaugh said the problem with third world poverty is not a lack of food, but a lack of captialism. You know what the best way to help the third world poor is? To help them start their own capitalistic businesses and to overthrow dictatorial governments that confiscate and sell the aid that good, well-meaning people send them. Sad but true.

In India and other parts of Asia we born-again Christians are loaning money to very small one or two person family businesses to start up. They become self-sufficient that way. The little businesses may be just making rugs or grilling food in an open air market, but the result is life changing.

On the other hand in some corrupt African nations without democracy our gifts are intercepted and sold for the use of the dictator and police. Some groups like Samaritan's Purse actually deliver the goods to the poor themselves and avoid the government middleman.

I don't believe any government programs will eradicate poverty. Only businesses can do that, and only capitalism and freedom allow businesses to grow and help people to the maximum.

Do the Millenium Goals include captialism? And democracy? Would they work in Afghanistan or Iraq? We can help those countries now.
 
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inquisitor_11

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Rush Limbaugh said the problem with third world poverty is not a lack of food, but a lack of captialism. You know what the best way to help the third world poor is? To help them start their own capitalistic businesses and to overthrow dictatorial governments that confiscate and sell the aid that good, well-meaning people send them. Sad but true.

Unfortunately, the issues behind 3rd world poverty are alot more complex than that. You are correct in saying that the issue is not a lack of food- the global economy produces more than enough to feed everyone. The problem is distribution. One of the main reasons that distribution (not just of food, but also income and wealth) is a problem is because of the monopolistic captialism that is driving the world's economy.

Free-market capitalism has its advantages, but in terms of development, especially within today's global economy, it often results in quite unfair situations. In a nutshell, capitalism has more often than not, encouraged corrupt governments and
caused 3rd world countries to simply become sources of land , labour and capital for trans-national corporations to expliot, with minimal benefits from the use of these productive resources staying in the country. i.e. stealing from the poor to help make the rich richer.

The issue of dictatorial and corrupt governments is fairly well known by us in the west, the only problem is, that we are often not made aware of the goepolitical context that led to those governments being in power. We in the west often have a lot to answer for.

n India and other parts of Asia we born-again Christians are loaning money to very small one or two person family businesses to start up. They become self-sufficient that way. The little businesses may be just making rugs or grilling food in an open air market, but the result is life changing.

As you have said, microfinance has been an excellent means of stimulating small-scale economic growth in a way that is quite often very appropriate, and allows people to develop some economic independence.

I don't believe any government programs will eradicate poverty. Only businesses can do that, and only capitalism and freedom allow businesses to grow and help people to the maximum.

No, business generally operates to make a profit. The profit motive is contrary to dealing with poverty (and dare I say, christianity). Increased business activity CAN provide a means to improve the economic prosperity of a community/natio. However if left to their own devices, business will look after their own interests, often (as history shows us) regardless of how that effects other people.

Do the Millenium Goals include captialism? And democracy? Would they work in Afghanistan or Iraq? We can help those countries now.

http://www.micahchallenge.org/home/intro.asp
http://www.developmentgoals.org/

see for yourself...
 
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Treasure the Questions

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Great posts, inquisitor_11! :cool:

You are quite right in saying the reasons for poverty in the developing world are complex.

I heard about a village in Ghana who were doing OK growing and selling rice, when all of a sudden they could only get a low price for it, too low to live on. Why? Because cheap Amnercan rice suddenly flooded the market - I understand it was Uncle Ben's.

Is it right for Americans to dump their surplus rice and ruin local economies?

The trade rules are also weighted against developing countries.

There's a lot of information on this website http://www.tjm.org.uk/about.shtml

Karin
 
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artybloke

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Rush Limbaugh said the problem with third world poverty is not a lack of food, but a lack of captialism.

Rush Limbaugh is a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
 
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Sharp

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Treasure the Questions said:
Great posts, inquisitor_11! :cool:

You are quite right in saying the reasons for poverty in the developing world are complex.

I heard about a village in Ghana who were doing OK growing and selling rice, when all of a sudden they could only get a low price for it, too low to live on. Why? Because cheap Amnercan rice suddenly flooded the market - I understand it was Uncle Ben's.

Is it right for Americans to dump their surplus rice and ruin local economies?

The trade rules are also weighted against developing countries.

There's a lot of information on this website http://www.tjm.org.uk/about.shtml

Karin
Capitalism works! So what if the Ghanan failures at diversification? Let them diversify their crops like the rest of us. I'd expect such failures from a liberal socialist nation, not from a free captialist nation.

Trade rules are not weighted in a free market. You seem to have been spoon fed a lot of socialist nonsense. Did you go to a government owned school?
 
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Treasure the Questions

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Sharp, the problem is that in the USA the majority of your media is controlled by the right, politically speaking, so you get a very baised view of reality.

All the major Christian charities here in the UK support Fair Trade and Trade Justice, including the Evangelical Alliance, acknowledging that to follow Christ means to support such intiatives to reduce poverty. No Christian worthy of that name, or anyone with a conscience can continue to support the current trade situation. We must all do whatever we can to improve things.

These issues are also reported in quality British newspapers and on serious programmes on the BBC. There is no disputing that this is the reality of the situation.

Here is an extract from what the Trade Justice Movement's website has to say about the need for change in the trade rules:
There is an increasing gap between many of the stated objectives of the world trading regime and the global reality of growing inequalities and environmental degradation. The benefits of the international trade system have gone to those who already have the most, while many of the poorest have failed to benefit fully and some have even been made poorer. The environment has also suffered. Increasing consumption and transport related to increased volumes of international trade, particularly in the industrialised world, have contributed to increasing pressure on the world's natural resources and habitats. The growing importance of trade and competitiveness to national economic decision-making has also had a 'chilling' effect on the development of environmental and social policy in some countries.

The WTO trade agreements are seriously flawed because they largely prioritise liberalisation and deregulation in the private interest over national (and potentially international) regulation in the public interest. Ironically, in areas where certain 'liberalisation' policies could potentially have a range of social and environmental benefits (e.g. in policy areas such as export support, fisheries subsidies, market access for textiles and the flexible use of intellectual property rights), exceptions have been made in practice and the trade system has again been used to benefit the few, rather than the many.

The challenge facing the international community is to make the trade system reflect the concerns of civil society and work for poverty eradication and sustainable development. It is essential that governments adopt a new approach in the trade negotiations launched in Doha and that this marks the beginning of a new era in trade policy-making, which puts the needs of people and the environment at its heart.
Please take the trouble to read the rest of the article, here: http://www.tjm.org.uk/about/statement.shtml - it's not very long, and it will help you form a more balanced and more realistic opinion of the world trade situaition.

Karin
 
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Sharp

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Treasure the Questions said:
Sharp, the problem is that in the USA the majority of your media is controlled by the right, politically speaking, so you get a very baised view of reality.
No, in the USA the media is controlled mostly by liberals. We fair and independent minded people have to create our own alternative sources and have done so with success (talk radio, FOX News, the internet), but the libs dominate the media, education, and entertainment. It is a miracle of God's grace that we've been so successful politically despite the avalanche of liberal bias. We conservatives are equal time, fighting against brainwashing by liberals. In Brittain it is just as bad.

All the major Christian charities here in the UK support Fair Trade and Trade Justice, including the Evangelical Alliance, acknowledging that to follow Christ means to support such intiatives to reduce poverty. No Christian worthy of that name, or anyone with a conscience can continue to support the current trade situation. We must all do whatever we can to improve things.
I looked up you link and read it and looked up a few links on that link. The Evangelical Alliance (whatever that is) is not listed as a member. See your own link http://www.tjm.org.uk/members.shtml

The other members on that list are like a rogues gallery of leftwing extremists to be avoided. Greenpeace is there and so are other liberal churches and some ad hoc catholic groups. I urge Christians not to support them.

Having said that, I agree that we should treat people fairly with trade deals. Some of the prioirties sound nice, (sugar hides the taste of poison). The devil is in the details. For example the credits for carbon emissions is a scam and unworthy of Christian support. No other industrial nation has signed that deal, yet people want the US to do so. It will only undermine our economy and all will suffer. It is just another redistributinist scheme. The poor nations would be better off developing their own factories when profitable or by producing what they do best and trading... not by demanding money from nations that have factories. And the whole Global Warming business is a scam anyway. It is junk science. Don't fall for it.

These issues are also reported in quality British newspapers and on serious programmes on the BBC.
The BBC and the British press! Well that means it is untrue on the face of it. You suffer from a biased media and cannot get the truth. Your gov't censors other opinions. Sorry but the logic of your comment is as follows: "It must be true because everybody says so... and if anybody disagrees, the gov't censors him!"


Here is an extract from what the Trade Justice Movement's website has to say about the need for change in the trade rules:
Yes, I invested the time to read it and look up links on the site. (Sharp sighs, "That's twenty minutes of my life I'll never get back.:eek: )

Thank you, Karin, for posting this and dialoging with us. I will read what you post and consider it. I respect your opinions and sincerity. Perhaps the differences are in methods. I will post positive examples of how we as believers are affecting the world for good in positive Biblical ways. Work with me on this. Thanks.
 
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Interesting, we are continually told that the media in the US has a right-wing bias.

Our media is pretty balanced - if you heard some of the internal debate you might relise that too.

Cafod, the Catholic relief charity supports the Trade Justice movement, as does Christian Aid, a charity respected and supported across the board by many churches in England as does TEARFund - the Evangelical Alliance Relief Fund http://www.tearfund.org/homepage/index.asp. There's a double page about Trade Justice in their new magazine, along with a card to send off and tell our govt we "vote for Trade Justice".

Karin
 
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IMF sounds death knell for Ghanaian farmers /09.03.04

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In March 2003 the Ghanaian government announced much needed measures to protect its local farmers from unfair competition caused by cheap imports. Within days of this announcement - under pressure from the International Monetary Fund - the Ghanaian government was forced to shelve their plans.[/font]

more info here http://www.christian-aid.org/campaign/trade/0312_imf_wb_brief.htm
 
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Sharp

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Treasure the Questions said:
Interesting, we are continually told that the media in the US has a right-wing bias.

Our media is pretty balanced - if you heard some of the internal debate you might relise that too.

Cafod, the Catholic relief charity supports the Trade Justice movement, as does Christian Aid, a charity respected and supported across the board by many churches in England as does TEARFund - the Evangelical Alliance Relief Fund http://www.tearfund.org/homepage/index.asp. There's a double page about Trade Justice in their new magazine, along with a card to send off and tell our govt we "vote for Trade Justice".

Karin
Thanks, Karin. I see that the TEARFund does support this. Now all we need to do is figure out who the TEARFund people are. What is their statement of faith? Espeically what do they say about the Bible? I thank you.

As to balanced media, I am not surprised that your media tells you it is balanced. Do you get FOX News? Or listen to Rush Limbaugh, or Dennis Prager, or Michael Medved, Laura Ingraham, Pat Robertson and The 700 Club?

I know you do get Focus on the Family but is it censored? Can your English speakers discuss homosexuality or spanking without fear?

In America the main networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, and CNN) are biased for liberals. Fox is more balanced, but going more liberal in its line ups. The independent talk shows, however, are decidedly conservative and capitalist. Perhaps they are that to which your media refer when they say American media are conservative.

===
If I we a farmer in Ghana, I'd do as my ancestors did before the Europeans arrived. I'd grow my own veggies and cattle and do very little trade. I don't need to buy western goods if I can make my own. If I make something for export, I do so for my advantage and because they want my produce. Otherwise forget it. I have heard of African gov'ts wanting to clone factories and western styly infrastructure for ego sake. That is the crisis they cause to their own nations.

There is one limit I can see on capitalism. The Bible tells us that people are sinful and desparately wicked. Laws are needed to protect captialism from illegal collusion and conspiracies. People can subvert any system, including a good one like free trade. I am no fan of the World Bank. Most conservatives oppose it and the World Trade agencies but for different reasons. They subvert free trade and we in the USA end up paying for it! We undergird debts to third world nations that default, and the US taxpayers suffer.

===
Karin, don't be taken in by any group that plans to end poverty. That is an unbiblical goal. Jesus promised we'd always have the poor. A better solution is to provide opportunities to work and to lesson the pain and to let people work their way out. Success in fighting poverty is a matter of gradual degrees - not all or nothing anyway.
 
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inquisitor_11

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Listen, my dear brothers and sisters! Did not God choose the poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor!

Sharp, I'd appreciate it if you didn't hijack this thread to promote american pseudo-christianity and your conservative political views.
 
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Treasure the Questions

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Sharp said:
Thanks, Karin. I see that the TEARFund does support this. Now all we need to do is figure out who the TEARFund people are. What is their statement of faith? Especially what do they say about the Bible? I thank you.
You can download what they have to say about that here http://www.tearfund.org/homepage/index.asp?main=redirect&url=http://www.tearfund.org/aboutus/ It's an 8 page document, so not suitable for reproduction here.

Sharp said:
As to balanced media, I am not surprised that your media tells you it is balanced. Do you get FOX News? Or listen to Rush Limbaugh, or Dennis Prager, or Michael Medved, Laura Ingraham, Pat Robertson and The 700 Club?
I think Fox News may be available, but the BBC is good enough for me, thank you. They are respected world-wide.

Sharp said:
I know you do get Focus on the Family but is it censored? Can your English speakers discuss homosexuality or spanking without fear?
I have heard discussions on spanking. Premier Radio, a Christian Radio station used to broadcast Focus on the Family, and may well still do so. I'm not aware that they censor the programmes, but if they are edited in anyway that would be the decision of the braodcaster, not something imposed by government. Not sure why Focus on the Family would need to discuss homosexuality, but the subject is certainly discussed on the BBC, and usually with sensitivity and understanding. The smacking of children is discouraged, especially when it can become violent and abusive. Good parents may occasionally need to give a young child a light smack to dissuade them from dangerous behaviour, but so often it is misused to force children to do what best suits the parents. There are far better ways to discipline children most of the time.

=
Sharp said:
If I we a farmer in Ghana, I'd do as my ancestors did before the Europeans arrived. I'd grow my own veggies and cattle and do very little trade. I don't need to buy western goods if I can make my own. If I make something for export, I do so for my advantage and because they want my produce. Otherwise forget it. I have heard of African gov'ts wanting to clone factories and western styly infrastructure for ego sake. That is the crisis they cause to their own nations.

I think you missed my previous post.

IMF sounds death knell for Ghanaian farmers /09.03.04

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In March 2003 the Ghanaian government announced much needed measures to protect its local farmers from unfair competition caused by cheap imports. Within days of this announcement - under pressure from the International Monetary Fund - the Ghanaian government was forced to shelve their plans.[/font]

more info here
http://www.christian-aid.org/campai...mf_wb_brief.htm

The problem is that farmers in Ghana cannot sell their goods at local markets because of cheap imports, where Uncle Ben dumps unwanted rice on Ghanaian markets, and suchlike. The government is prevented from helping it's own farmers by the International Monetary Fund, of which the US is a powerful member.

These people would be fine if we left them alone, but we are so greedy we cannot allow them even modest prosperity! :mad:

Sharp said:
There is one limit I can see on capitalism. The Bible tells us that people are sinful and desparately wicked. Laws are needed to protect captialism from illegal collusion and conspiracies. People can subvert any system, including a good one like free trade. I am no fan of the World Bank. Most conservatives oppose it and the World Trade agencies but for different reasons. They subvert free trade and we in the USA end up paying for it! We undergird debts to third world nations that default, and the US taxpayers suffer.

Free Trade is not the answer. Free Trade favours the rich and powerful. We should not be undergirding these debts, but wiping the slate clean in most cases.
===
Sharp said:
Karin, don't be taken in by any group that plans to end poverty. That is an unbiblical goal. Jesus promised we'd always have the poor. A better solution is to provide opportunities to work and to lesson the pain and to let people work their way out. Success in fighting poverty is a matter of gradual degrees - not all or nothing anyway.
Have no fear that I am under any illusions. We live in a world of selfish, greedy people and there will always be poor people and people oppressed and exploited by those who are more powerful, but as Christians we should not be part of any system that does this.

Some things we cannot change, but we can put pressure on our governments to remember God's hatred of oppression and injustive, and his bias for the poor, and make the rules that govern world trade a whole lot fairer. We can urge our governments to give aid without political strings attached.

We can put our faith into practice and buy as many fairly traded products as we can afford. We can change our lifestyles so we don't consume excessive amounts of the worlds resources. If we call ourselves Christians we should live by Christian principles, and they don't start and end in the bedroom!
 
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