miaphisite theology

[FireDragon76]

I found this article talking about problems in western theology and the Roman Catholic encounter with miaphysite theology in the Oriental Orthodox, as well as Pope Benedict's critique of the Nestorian tendency in western Christianity:

http://www.academia.edu/12828239/Af..._Dialogue_with_the_Oriental_Orthodox_Churches

There's some excellent points. I was unaware that the later Ecumenical Councils were not fully received.

It does seem many non-Lutheran Protestant churches have a Nestorian tendency, particularly in the early Eucharistic theology.

The then Cardinal Ratzinger makes a good case by pointing out there is a moralistic tendency in western Christendom because of the lack of full reception of later ecumenical councils. There's a tendency to focus on humanity apart from the divinity of Christ , to psychologize Christ. He connects this with a tendency to view worship as entertainment or the celebration of being human, and I think that analysis is correct. This is why there are "worship wars" in western churches, but there is no confusion over worship in eastern churches to this degree. The concept of worship has been weakened or lost and been replaced with moralism as a dominant ethos.

I have been studying history moreso in the past weeks and it's clear to me that in terms of religion and culture, the separation from the east happened much earlier than I previously imagined, esp. due to the rise of Frankish culture in the late ancient period. A culture that was less interested in philosophy or mysticism and more interested in practical matters of creating a civilization with clear rule of law, and I believe this tendency is what defines western Christianity to this day.

I don't think these issues are particularly relevant to our day because our civilization has reached a limit on what law can do to bring social harmony. If anything, what is happening is that politics is becoming a way for various groups to express resentment and individual identity rather than develop practical solutions. We do not have the tools to create social harmony due to the decline of Christian symbolism, because the symbols themselves have been degraded through centuries of rationalism.

 

[Philip_B]

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/relationships/ecumenical-dialogues/oriental-orthodox.aspx

The Anglican Communion has been in discussions with the OO and this page on the communion website contains access to the material. I believe both sides of the discussion have much to learn by listening to one another.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

I found this article talking about problems in western theology and the Roman Catholic encounter with miaphysite theology in the Oriental Orthodox, as well as Pope Benedict's critique of the Nestorian tendency in western Christianity:

http://www.academia.edu/12828239/Af..._Dialogue_with_the_Oriental_Orthodox_Churches

There's some excellent points. I was unaware that the later Ecumenical Councils were not fully received.

It does seem many non-Lutheran Protestant churches have a Nestorian tendency, particularly in the early Eucharistic theology.

The then Cardinal Ratzinger makes a good case by pointing out there is a moralistic tendency in western Christendom because of the lack of full reception of later ecumenical councils. There's a tendency to focus on humanity apart from the divinity of Christ , to psychologize Christ. He connects this with a tendency to view worship as entertainment or the celebration of being human, and I think that analysis is correct. This is why there are "worship wars" in western churches, but there is no confusion over worship in eastern churches to this degree. The concept of worship has been weakened or lost and been replaced with moralism as a dominant ethos.

I have been studying history moreso in the past weeks and it's clear to me that in terms of religion and culture, the separation from the east happened much earlier than I previously imagined, esp. due to the rise of Frankish culture in the late ancient period. A culture that was less interested in philosophy or mysticism and more interested in practical matters of creating a civilization with clear rule of law, and I believe this tendency is what defines western Christianity to this day.

I don't think these issues are particularly relevant to our day because our civilization has reached a limit on what law can do to bring social harmony. If anything, what is happening is that politics is becoming a way for various groups to express resentment and individual identity rather than develop practical solutions. We do not have the tools to create social harmony due to the decline of Christian symbolism, because the symbols themselves have been degraded through centuries of rationalism.

Generalizations are the closest thing to Monstrous size lies, Pope Benedict comes from The Germanic Countries where Secularization and "enlightenment" had replaced Christianity as the main fabric of societies, his beloved country has moved from Catholicism to Protestantism to Practical Atheism, Netherlads, Scandinavia, England and France had become foul images of their past fervor.

Societies of the Latin-Romance Europe are less cold than the Germanic countries in matters of faith. In Latin America Processions and Festivals in honor of The Lord Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints and Archangels are still part of the daily life of this societies.

For example in San Juan del Río, were I currently live the City makes a very big party on June 24th the day of Saint John the Baptist. and Every Parish celebrates the day to their saint patron. In Guadalajara, were I was born, The processions with the venerated image of the virgin Mary left by the Missionary who evangelized this lands is still the Greatest Celebration of The city, a City with 5 million inhabitants who closes its main avenue to bow to the pass of the Image of Mary.

What to say of December 12th, The feast of the Empress of America, the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe, Mother of the True God for whom we live. Mexico City, 20 million inhabitants celebrates in ever parish and in every chapel the feast of Our Lady. and the Celebration is bigger than the celebration of our Independence Day.

Guadalajara's Ceebration of Our Lady of Zapopan:

So yes, Europe is in big troubles, for hearing and endorsing religious relativism and indifferentism. We Pray we can stop that from coming to Mexico.

Peru is another Predominantly Catholic country who has his Strong Catholic traditions:

Lima (10 million People City) Our Lord of the Miracles:

And of course Our Mother Land, Spain:

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

So my point is that The opening Post accusing Western Christianity of some warming, Must be more accurate on what parts of Christianity are getting warmer.

 

[Philip_B]

Am I the only one who finds the image of the Soldiers Marching the Crucifix moderately disturbing?

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Yes, That is what I was talking about. "Enlightenment" implied that State and Religion Should be separated.... and Northern Europe followed and all countries where freemasons were able to reach power enforced secularization and made Religion Strange to State Issues.

 

[FireDragon76]

I believe the Pope was writing about the tendencies of academic theologians and the consequent liturgical trends in Europe and the US.

I actually live in a heavily Hispanic area in Orlando, and folk Catholicism is never far away. Latin American Catholicism is different than European or American Catholicism, for sure. I think its due to the basically spiritual worldview that the native peoples had that was not lost. But even in South America you can find priests and theologians influenced by European intellectual currents.

I don't think the issue is strictly separation of church and state. Eastern Christians have had that more or less for centuries. In medieval Europe, the issue is that Christianity became something it was never intended to be (a civilization-builder), and consequently it became enmeshed in worldly politics to an unhealthy degree. And it's still very much about that, it's very evident in the US in particular even though we are many centuries removed and we had a Reformation in the process. It's still in the Protestant DNA- what Cappadocious has called a "disciplining consciousness". The anti-clericalism of Europe, including the involvement of freemasons, was partly a reaction to that all that.

The eastern and oriental churches have a much more mystical approach to religion, and it worked for centuries until Communism attacked it at its heart through materialism and totalitarianism. And I believe there is something purer in the theology there. I can read Athanasius and still see the same emphasis going on there, whereas if I were to pick up a bit of Protestant or Catholic theology from the US, chances are I will find a much more moralistic view of the world, a crisis to be solved by theology.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

The Church Of Christ Is indeed intended to Establish the Kingdom Of God on Earth.

The 12 apostles were just the Seed of Mostard which is growing into a Massive Tree to say the Catholic Church, Being the Catholic Church the Mystical body of Christ and the Salt of the World. The Messianic Kingdom will not be established by the Sword but by the Evangelization.

We are the Lent which ferments the whole dough, We are ment to change the World. Including rulers and rules
,

Jesus Christ Sent us to Preach the Gospel to all nations and The Father wants all men to be saved. And that is why Christ Sent the Church to do the Job.

Matthew 13:31-33

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see western Christianity really turning around in terms of the decline until there is more engagement with eastern Christianity. The tendencies of 19th and 20th century Protestant theologians such as Von Harnack to try to contrast a philosophical "Hellenistic" vs. a supposedly "ethical", "Jewish" Christianity have really muddied the issue, having a firm grip on the theological imagination for decades. The Social Gospel movement is another example of this tendency as well.

Roman Catholics seem to be continuing to attempt a resourcement, as do a minority of Anglicans, but the wider Protestant world seems very self-satisfied in their essentially moralistic take on Christianity. I don't think it surprising that Pentecostalism is growing as a result, because Pentecostalism directly taps into this void of spirituality. Unfortunately, divorced from patristic roots of Incarnation and Christology, the spirituality presented is sometimes only vaguely Christian.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

sorry, but Eastern Christianity is Far more weakened than the presumptious you show. ¿Do you know that while Latin AMerica, issues of Abortion, and Fast divorse are strong debate matters, in Eastern Europe, Abortions are a matter of old?

It was among Eastern Orthodox where Atheistic Communism grew the most and where the attendance to Church is lower than in Latin América and even perhaps than in United States. Russia, Romania, and other eastern countries are sometimes more atheistic than Western christian countries

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Spain

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Monks, Frairs, Nuns, Men, Women, Kids and Youngs Knights of the Sacre Sepulcre, Knights of Colombus, Dancers, Etc. All in the Same Party Praying the Rosary and singing to God and Mary. Tell me When We can see this among Eastern Orthodox and then we can talk:

 

[FireDragon76]

sorry, but Eastern Christianity is Far more weakened than the presumptious you show. ¿Do you know that while Latin AMerica, issues of Abortion, and Fast divorse are strong debate matters, in Eastern Europe, Abortions are a matter of old?

There is a difference in the application of moral theology between the Orthodox and Latins. I'm don't believe that makes the historic Latin approach the best. Roman Catholics tend to take a legalistic rather than personalist approach to ethics. Orthodox Christians do not traditionally speak in personalist terms but they do speak of the application of moral theology in more therapeutic terms than legal categories.

That is why abortion and divorce are treated differently in culturally Orthodox lands. It doesn't automatically make that distinction wrong, either. In fact, your objection basically speaks to my point, that western Christians at heart are often tainted by a moralistic or legalistic view of God.

It was among Eastern Orthodox where Atheistic Communism grew the most and where the attendance to Church is lower than in Latin América and even perhaps than in United States. Russia, Romania, and other eastern countries are sometimes more atheistic than Western christian countries

There's a lot of atheists in historically Catholic countries too, now. Spain, France, and Italy.

Orthodoxy did not create Leninism, it was a movement in response to a devastating world war, one that Russia only partly contributed to, and economic problems.

As was pointed out days ago to me in a discussion with a Finnish poster here, it's easy to assume that because people don't go to church, the Church is not important to them. But I think this forces a western view of religiosity onto a culture that has its own ideas of what religion is about. In most Orthodox countries, religion is heavily intertwined with culture, the family is a kind of little church.

A group of Christians suffering does not invalidate their theology, in fact it might strengthen the case that churches that have survived so much hardship have something to teach us. I don't think my point is that western Christians must ape the forms of eastern Christians uncritically, merely that eastern theology at its core has a "DNA" conducive to survival in changing circumstances, whereas western theology has a tendency to be wed to the spirit of the age far too much.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

your point was that Eastern Orthodoxy may save Weastern Christianity.... Why don't they save their own first?

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

And I know that there among Protestants there is Desperation for the Gay marriages, abortion and divorse aproved by the Protestant churches... ¿What are you left to believe in if you swallowed the full tale that Catholicism was the harlot of Babylon?.... Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[FireDragon76]

And I know that there among Protestants there is Desperation for the Gay marriages, abortion and divorse aproved by the Protestant churches...

Actually, among mainline Protestants those aren't the things killing it. In fact, mainline Protestants lost their dominance a long time ago in the late 19th and early 20th century. The post-World War II resurgence of "churchgoing" was not reflective of an essential change in American or European religiosity, despite the spin that conservative religious commentators tried to put on it. So you can't pin the problems of Protestantism on more lax attitudes to morals. The moral laxity happened long after the decline.

Most of the growing charismatic churches in the US actually have relatively lax morals too (in decidedly different ways of course from the mainline, but it's still there). In fact that's one thing that separates Neo-Charismatics from Pentecostals.

What are you left to believe in if you swallowed the full tale that Catholicism was the harlot of Babylon?.... Eastern Orthodoxy.

Or Oriental Orthodoxy or the half dozen other eastern churches. But actually I think you are being uncharitable in peoples religious quests. It's not automatically obvious that Roman Catholicism is the "one, true Church".

 

[Philip_B]

And I know that there among Protestants there is Desperation for the Gay marriages, abortion and divorse aproved by the Protestant churches... ¿What are you left to believe in if you swallowed the full tale that Catholicism was the harlot of Babylon?.... Eastern Orthodoxy.

I am not sure where the anger is coming from. You may not, for whatever reason, agree with a protestant position, (and, by the way, I don't see myself as a protestant) but the struggle faced in much of the 1st world to make Jesus known in the midst of an extremely secular environment is complex. The questions about how high is the fence, what is the minimum standard at the core of our faith, how will a generation yet unborn hear of the good news of Christ are all questions that all Churches in the first world wrestle with. And, surprise surprise, so the answers are a bit different to what we thought they were going to be. That you don't agree with those answers is entirely valid, that you stand to the side and mock and jeer is probably less helpful.

I believe associating the harlot of Babylon from Revelation with the Church who expresses their focus of unity with the Patriarch of the West is unfounded, a weak exegesis, and entirely unhelpful, and basically flat our wrong. I am really not sure what your beef is with eastern orthodoxy, with whom we share scriptures, creed (for the most part), catholic order and apostolic ministry.

The Kingdom of God is not a new world order, it is not a new King, it is an entire new understanding of what Kingship means.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

If non Christian groups can take the streets and promote an antichristian philosophy, we should take them too:

We should oppose to this:

And propose in exchange this, while we can:

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Our Lady of Walsingham in England is recovering followers

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/thirteen_thousand_people_attend_tamil_pilgrimage_at_walsingham_1_4610944

People from Sri Lanka and southern India, living Britain, attended the annual Tamil Two pilgrimage at the Catholic National Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham, at Little Walsingham, near Fakenham.

This followed a Tamil pilgrimage to Walsingham, in May, attended by about 8,000.

The majority of pilgrims were Catholic, but there were some Hindus, who also revere the Virgin Mary.

Pilgrimage coordinator Julian Foord said: “It is the most well-attended event of the year here at Walsingham and, in terms of numbers, it must be the third or fourth biggest one-day event all year in Norfolk.

“We have people here from Middlesbrough, Cardiff, London, Birmingham as well as some more local Tamils.


Unfortunatelly England Anglicans destroyed the Sanctuary of Our Lady.

 

[Philip_B]

http://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk/welcome/index.htm