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Messianics who preach circumcision

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by 31gH9N.9., May 25, 2018.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Covenant of Circumcision was a means for other people from other nations to enter that covenant with God.
    The Covenant of Circumcision was conditional, and because it was continually broken, it was revoked by God.
     
  2. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Circulation, just like the rest of the law, would be adhered to, as the Gentiles coming into the faith of Messiah would come to the synagogues and hear the Torah being read

    The Jerusalem council commanded them to adhere to 4 main principles, because they would learn the rest on Shabbat when they would gather to hear the Torah

    It says so in Acts 15

    Expecting them to learn the Torah and obey it all at once would be too big of a burden.

    We have to remember. Gentiles don’t grow up learning and living the Torah. They have to change their lifestyle, whereas an Israelite grows up having the Torah.

    The Gentiles would learn about things such as circumcision, clean and unclean foods, holy days, and other aspects of the Torah as they heard it being read every Shabbat.

    You will overload someone coming into the faith of you try to put too much expectation on them to know and do everything in the Torah right away
     
  3. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    You are making another false allegation. The Sabbath and moral commands remain. It was the priesthood that was changed and the festivals done away with. To say it is not so is Anti-Christ.
     
  4. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    You are teaching against the rules, again. I cannot respond to your teaching.
     
  5. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    The covenant of circumcision was given to Abraham.

    it wasn’t conditional and it was never revoked.

    Circumcision is a sign of the covenant between God & Abraham

    The covenant that was conditional
    Was the covenant made at Mount Sinai.

    The Sinai covenant was broken and revoked, hence a new covenant being made. Abraham’s covenant was not conditional.
     
  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Irrevocable Covenant

    This is the irrevocable covenant. It is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


    Genesis 17 NIV

    17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty"; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

    3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram"; your name will be Abraham," for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

    "The Covenant of Circumcision" is with Abraham and the nations, because Abraham was to be the father of many nations.

    Romans 9:8
    In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Judges 2:1

    [ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

    (In regards to the land of Israel)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Chronicles 17:13

    I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.

    (In regards to Christ)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Jeremiah 32:40

    I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

    (In regards to the New Covenant)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Leviticus 26:44

    Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 29:21
    The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 11:8
    But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.’”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  8. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Circumcision wasn’t conditional. It was to be a sign of the covenant made with abraham & God. There was no “If” associated with circumcision

    A conditional covenant is based on conditions. Meaning, if person A does something, then person B will do something. Like the Israelites & God at Sinai.

    The Israelites entered into a covenant which blessed them if they did their part, and cursed them if they did not.

    Abraham’s covenants were not like this.

    The covenants of Abraham are before and superior to the Sinai covenant.
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Circumcised


    Jeremiah 9:25

    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh—


    Romans 2:26

    26. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

    27. The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.


    Romans 4:9

    9. Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

    10. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!


    1 Corinthians 7:18

    Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.


    Galatians 5:2

    Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

    Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.


    Colossians 2:11

    In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Which of the covenants were other people able to enter?


    Zechariah 11:10
    Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  11. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    circumcision seems like it is only problem if you decide it is. how often has circumcision, whether a person is or is not circumcised, been an issue in your real life?

    how would you even know if a friend of yours is circumcised or not, like what kind of relationship would you even have in order to possess that knowledge?
     
  12. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    You should attempt at reading the whole of Jeremiah. Better yet, the whole Torah. The command to circumcise is an everlasting commandment given to Abraham and reconfirmed in Leviticus. To say that it was revoked makes a liar out of Gd. If you don't want to follow it, that's a ok as it was not given to you. But, if anyone thinks that one can be "grafted" into Israel without it, well, it's a fool's errand. The question, of course, regards the Messianics. And the rejection of the most basic of commandments is, in the nutshell, what's wrong with MJ(not all). The Torah is not a buffet, you don't get to pick which commandments you wish to follow. Even if one wishes to dismiss those dastardly Rabbis and their rules, there still is no way around certain rules like dietary laws, purity, shabbat and holy days, and.... circumcision. There is zero chance of belonging to any form of Judaism or claim any connection with Abraham without it.
     
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  13. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    That concerned clean sacrifices, not human food.
    Simply because Moses did not abolish prior law, does not make it Moses law. Rather he retained law which was prior. Such as
    Le 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

    Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
    28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
    29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  14. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This thread has had a clean up. Please note what thread you are posting in and what forum it is in.
     
  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    The covenant of circumcision is distinct from the Sinai covenant. God swore to Abraham an oath, and will not repent.

    Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

    Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

    I think you have your covenants confused. The Sabbath concerns Sinai. Circumcision concerns the fathers.

    Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
     
  16. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Irrevocable Covenant

    This is the irrevocable covenant. It is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


    Genesis 17 NIV

    17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty"; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

    3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram"; your name will be Abraham," for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

    "The Covenant of Circumcision" is with Abraham and the nations, because Abraham was to be the father of many nations.

    Romans 9:8
    In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Judges 2:1

    [ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

    (In regards to the land of Israel)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Chronicles 17:13

    I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.

    (In regards to Christ)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Jeremiah 32:40

    I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

    (In regards to the New Covenant)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Leviticus 26:44

    Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  17. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I see everyone dodged my question and ignored the scriptures I posted.
     
  18. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I didn't say it was food.
     
  19. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    As I told you before, we are not allowed to debate the revocation of any part of Torah (I even copied the rule to you). Why, therefore, do you ask why you are getting no responses?
     
  20. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    My friend, there are strict limits on what can be said in here because of the SOP, thus I cannot share all of my thoughts. May I suggest that you PM me?

    Most Messianics, Jew and Gentile, do not follow Torah out of the belief that this is obligatory for salvation, but rather out of love and for sanctification, and that would include the rite of circumcision. Now that is not true of all in here, as I'm sure you are aware that some are fully convinced that we are required to observe the law fully. This is something we debate among ourselves in a spirit of charity.

    You will find that there is little unity among Messianics except love for Torah and Yeshua.
     
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