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Messianics who preach circumcision

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by 31gH9N.9., May 25, 2018.

  1. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    There was no condition on our part to the
    covenant of circumcision. As long as Yahweh
    is Elohim, circumcision applies to ALL males
    who follow him.

    I hope you didn't intend it, but your arguments
    call everyone from Abram to Moses and all who
    circumcised their children in the bible Judaizers.

    Judaizers actually taught salvation through the
    act of circumcision and obedience to the law.
    They wanted all believers to become Jews and
    follow the law before they understood it.
     
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  2. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    True. And if they are circumcised because that
    is what the law says, it will not get them into
    heaven, but they will be blessed for doing what
    is right, and they will gain honor.
    Corollary of Matthew 5:19

    The one thing I don't want to hear, but so many
    Christians will hear it: Matthew 7:23
     
  3. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    No, they become children of Abraham: Hebrews.
     
  4. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Replacement Theology is where the Catholic Church takes the place of Israel and the Rabbi's.
     
  5. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Abraham did not have Moses law, that came 430 years after Abraham. Those Abraham circumcised were members of his household. They were not all Hebrews.
     
  6. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    What has it to do just Catholics - that ia a mega insult to all Catholics. Many Protestants are more guilty of RT than the Catholics, many, many, many more!

    I know you are anti-Catholic but that is taking things far to far.

    RT is also where someone declares that Gentiles can become the new Israel, effectively replacing the 'lost' Jews.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  7. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    So how did Noah know what G_d meant when he was told to gather together, in the ark, two of every clean animal?
     
  8. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I am not aware of any other denomination preaching RT.
     
  9. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Oh my! You really should read up on the issue! Peakes' Commentary was widely used in theological colleges in the 60's and is still used in some - it says within its covers, quite literally, that the Church is the new Israel and has inherited all of Israel's blessings (but, strangely, it says nothing about accepting Israel's curses!). Some Methodist, Baptist, Reformed, FIEC, Anglican, Catholic, Pentecostal etc etc etc., believe this rubbish, and their theology shows it. One doesn't have to preach on it - it shows in other ways, too. It is little more prevalent in Liberal congregations, but certainly not unknown in many evangelical congregations.

    Suggested reading:

    Horner, B. Future Israel B&H Academic TN 2007

    Jacob, A. The Case For Enlargement Theology Glory to Glory Publications Essex UK 2010

    Kessler, E. & Wenborn N. A Dictionary of Jewish - Christian Relations Cambridge University Press NY 2008 [Pages 375-6]

    Soulen, R.K. The God of Israel and Christian Theology Fortress Press MN 1996 [it is called Supercessionism in this book]

    there are many more books on the subject. The above books have been listed on the sticky of this forum for years!! If the leader is taught it, and his theology is based on it, the congregation will believe it, and tell others.

    RT is not permitted on MJ fora.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Congregations that believe in Replacement Theology

    The Roman Catholic Church – 66,407,105

    Seventh Day Adventist – 19,126,438

    The United Methodist Church – 8,251,042

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – 5,410,544

    Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – 5,038,006

    Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – 3,407,329

    The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod – 2,512,714

    African Methodist Episcopal Church – 2,500,000

    The Episcopal Church – 2,333,628

    Churches of Christ, Corsicana, Texas – 1,500,000

    Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America – 1,500,000

    African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church – 1,430,795

    United Church of Christ – 1,330,985

    Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo. – 1,071,616

    Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1,022,397
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Although Replacement Theology is not correct, there still remains the fact that the Old Covenant has been revoked.
     
  12. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    and 10s of 1000's more around the world!

    Your titlle is incorrect - they are denomination names, not congregation names :)
     
  13. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    That statement is contrary to MJ rules, and it is not true.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  14. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    So Abraham is/is going to be the "father of many nations", so do the men of those nations have to be circumcised?
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The correct translation of the word "CHURCH" is "CONGREGATION."
     
  16. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    The correct word for the administrative entity is Denomination - you listed the Denominations, each of which had oversight over xxxxx number of local CONGREGATIONS or CHURCHES. Congregation and Denomination are not the same.
     
  17. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Hebrews 10:29
    How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

    Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


    Zechariah 11
    7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
    8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
    The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
    10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
    11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

    The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

    Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.
     
  18. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Titles of the Denominations is to identify the Congregations.
     
  19. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It is usually best to read the rules before posting!

    Non-negotiable points:
    • No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
    • No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
    • No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.
    I didn't write the rules so you had best shout at somone else.
     
  20. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    That is what I said - that you listed the denominations, not the local Church or Congregation
     
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