Messianics who preach circumcision

[AbbaLove]

So, how would it be thought an addition by the Apostles? Rather it seems to be things retained which were prior to the law, and universal in that they were maintained in the law, and beyond

It was Randy777 (see his post #162) that you should be asking that question to as i agree with you and not any of the RCCs versions over hundreds of years.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

He added his above quote at the bottom of his list of ten (see #162). Evidently Randy777 has decided that the original 4th Commandment was no longer applicable for him. Depending on which version of the RCC rendering the most updated list removes the 2nd Commandment and original 4th commandment is now their 3rd commandment that the Lord's Day to keep Holy is (implied) Sunday not Saturday.

Here is that version in which the RCC removed the 2nd Commandment about not worshiping idols and in order to still end up with Ten Commandments they give the following reason ... "The Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to Ten Commandments." ...

Whereas the Catechism’s traditional presentation of the commandments for memorization are:
1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

​

 

[Randy777]

Just because Jesus said several but did not mention the others does not mean that he did not believe them to be valid. On the contrary, the Apostles kept them as well. Also, adding "follow me" would not really be adding another commandment from a Trinitatiran perspective as it would be telling us to follow God. Not God the father, but taken in context with what Jesus says in reply to Matthew 22:36 ""Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?", referencing Deuteronomy 6:4-5: 4“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. " we see Jesus telling us to love the LORD with all our heart, which would be to follow Him.

Lastly, the extent of keeping the Sabbath is variable for gentile believers. If you are not Jewish it is far more lax, and always has been. The Law for gentiles in Israel was different from the Law for them outside of it. So, you would not necessarily have to abstain from all work, but there are ways to keep the sabbath generally agreed (but still not overall in agreement) by MJ thinkers for gentiles.

The law would be as written or given by God in regard to the sabbath if still required for righteousness sake.To remain in Gods love. The fact is Jesus didn't mention even 9 and He is the judge doesn't make your argument stronger but weakens it. I listed 9.
Paul stated do not let anyone judge you by a sabbath day. Jesus stated the sabbath was made for man. That man wasn't made for the sabbath.

 

[Randy777]

Acts 15
The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Acts 15
The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

Yeah, but Acts was a transitional book according to antinomians.

 

[AbbaLove]

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

Care to share the name of the church that believes the 4th Commandment should be removed and that the addition of the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" OR is it just your own opinion?

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

​

 

[Randy777]

Yeah, but Acts was a transitional book according to antinomians.

I think its clear while saved by grace through faith in Jesus,(not the law), we are not free to sin.

And in regard to the sabbath for righteousness sake that is to remain in Jesus's love. Tradition sake or if one wants to keep the sabbath what is that to me? To them that day is holy. After all these years i am not going to set aside all work and observe the sabbath unless Jesus tells me and so far He hasn't and I have heard from Him on occasion through the decades in response to prayers.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Regardless circumcision runs in my family line through my fathers side of the family. So I am circumcised. But if I wasn't I wouldn't see a need to seek it as its the Spirit of Christ on our hearts that I sought long ago and it was freely given to me by Jesus.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Where do we get the idea the the Law ever saved a person? It is a straw horse!

 

[Randy777]

​

Care to share the name of the church that believes the 4th Commandment should be removed and that the addition of the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" OR is it just your own opinion?

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

​

​

There is a difference between going to church then a absence of all work as the law requires in keeping the sabbath. I am not aware (maybe SDA's?), of any denomination that requires its members to abstane from all chores and all work on any given day. Going to church is encouraged.

 

[Randy777]

Where do we get the idea the the Law ever saved a person? It is a straw horse!

I don't have that idea. I do have the idea we are not free to sin.
As Jesus emphasized.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”

Paul covered false Gods and the one true God in His sermon about the unknown God to the pagans.

 

[ralliann]

​

It was Randy777 (see his post #162) that you should be asking that question to as i agree with you and not any of the RCCs versions over hundreds of years.

​

He added his above quote at the bottom of his list of ten (see #162). Evidently Randy777 has decided that the original 4th Commandment was no longer applicable for him. Depending on which version of the RCC rendering the most updated list removes the 2nd Commandment and original 4th commandment is now their 3rd commandment that the Lord's Day to keep Holy is (implied) Sunday not Saturday.

Here is that version in which the RCC removed the 2nd Commandment about not worshiping idols and in order to still end up with Ten Commandments they give the following reason ... "The Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to Ten Commandments." ...

Whereas the Catechism’s traditional presentation of the commandments for memorization are:
1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

​

Oops sorry Abbalove
Hey randy care to respond?

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeah, but Acts was a transitional book according to antinomians.

Transitional as from a previous covenant to its amended covenant? Are you saying that according to your MJ understanding that Messianic Judaism in its truest form should be void of antinomianism, and that Acts isn't really as transitional a book as some would make it out to be?

You can answer "YES" or "MAYBE" or "HAVEN'T MADE UP MY MIND YET" or defer if you're not sure what you believe.

 

[ralliann]

​

Transitional as from a previous covenant to its amended covenant? Are you saying that according to your MJ understanding that Messianic Judaism in its truest form should be void of antinomianism, and that Acts isn't really as transitional a book as some would make it out to be?

You can answer "YES" or "MAYBE" or "HAVEN'T MADE UP MY MIND YET" or defer if you're not sure what you believe.

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

What do you mean by an amended covenant?

 

[Steve Petersen]

​

Transitional as from a previous covenant to its amended covenant? Are you saying that according to your MJ understanding that Messianic Judaism in its truest form should be void of antinomianism, and that Acts isn't really as transitional a book as some would make it out to be?

You can answer "YES" or "MAYBE" or "HAVEN'T MADE UP MY MIND YET" or defer if you're not sure what you believe.

Yes to the first, but with caveat: the New Covenant was initiated by Jesus, but has not reached its fullness.

Yes to the second.

Yes to the third.

 

[danny ski]

Where do we get the idea the the Law ever saved a person? It is a straw horse!

The "law" was never about salvation (as framed by the early Christianity). As a matter of fact, the concept of salvation from sin is absent and, quite frankly, alien to the Torah. The contrasting of the "law" with the salvation is the very definition of a straw man argument. This is one of the reasons for Judaism's wholesale dismissal of Paul. The polite ones just scratch their heads in puzzlement.

 

[Steve Petersen]

his is one of the reasons for Judaism's wholesale dismissal of Paul. The polite ones just scratch their heads in puzzlement.

So do many Messianics. In fact, even E.P. Sanders seems to have difficulty understanding Paul. He actually diagrammed Paul's soteriology: it looks like a pile of string. LOL

 

[AbbaLove]

Oops sorry Abbalove
Hey randy care to respond?

Randy777 may not want to divulge the name of this church's version (see his #162 post). So will post again as possibly someone else may know where Randy777 got this version. The Moron's (LDS) hierarchy with their twelve Apostles have the final word concerning their church's doctrines. So, it's possible the following is taken from Moron doctrine being that Randy777 mentions "Added by the Apostles"

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality​

Randy777, care to share the name of the church that believes the 4th Commandment should be removed and that the addition of the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" ?

 

[AbbaLove]

The polite ones just scratch their heads in puzzlement.

The polite ones may be born again Jewish and non-Jewish Believers that with the help of the indwelling presence of Ruach HaKodesh understand Paul's writings as G-d inspired.

Perhaps you've heard the expression "G-ds Truth (Yeshua) may seem stranger than pulp fiction to a non-Believer" and "Messiah Yeshua is no stranger to born again Believers".

 

[pat34lee]

Circumcision might be a personal issue among the MJ, but it is a community rule among us Jews. Why? The commandment applies to individuals who are unable to make a choice--children.

True. The difference is that most messianics are
not born to people who practice ritual circumcision.
Many of us were circumcised as a health matter in
the hospitals where we were born, though.

 

[CherubRam]

I think its clear while saved by grace through faith in Jesus,(not the law), we are not free to sin.

And in regard to the sabbath for righteousness sake that is to remain in Jesus's love. Tradition sake or if one wants to keep the sabbath what is that to me? To them that day is holy. After all these years i am not going to set aside all work and observe the sabbath unless Jesus tells me and so far He hasn't and I have heard from Him on occasion through the decades in response to prayers.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Regardless circumcision runs in my family line through my fathers side of the family. So I am circumcised. But if I wasn't I wouldn't see a need to seek it as its the Spirit of Christ on our hearts that I sought long ago and it was freely given to me by Jesus.

Other Sabbath Rest

Colossians 2:16 Commentary


Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

The Sabbath days spoken of here in Colossians, has to do with letting the land rest, mentioned in the scriptures below. It has nothing to do with God’s Seventh Day Sabbath; otherwise there would be a contradiction in the scriptures. The Seventh Day Sabbath is to be kept by all of mankind continually. It is also a sign of who God’s people are.




Exodus 23:10

[ Sabbath Laws ] “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops…


Leviticus 23:39

“‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of Sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of Sabbath rest.


Leviticus 25:1-2

[ The Sabbath Year ] The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a Sabbath to the Lord.


Leviticus 25:4

But in the seventh year the land is to have a year of Sabbath rest, a Sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards.


Leviticus 25:6

Whatever the land yields during the Sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your male and female servants, and


Leviticus 25:8

[ The Year of Jubilee ] “‘Count off seven Sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven Sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years.


Leviticus 26:34

Then the land will enjoy its Sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its Sabbaths.


Leviticus 26:35

All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the Sabbaths you lived in it.


Leviticus 26:43

For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees.


2 Chronicles 36:21

The land enjoyed its Sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah.

 

[visionary]

Romans 7:12... Law is holy.. commandment holy, good, and just...

Yeshua did not change God’s Sabbath day. On the contrary, throughout His ministry He showed the true purpose and intent of the Sabbath. Yeshua often showed that the Sabbath, and particularly His teachings and actions on that day, prefigured the coming messianic age. How so you might ask? Because on that day, just like the time of the Kingdom of God cometh, it will be one of healing, freedom and restoration for all humanity.

Yeshua is a Sabbath-keeper even today. At the time of His death, His closest followers clearly observed the Sabbath, waiting until it was past to prepare His body for burial. Fifty days from Christ’s resurrection, many gathered for the Day of Pentecost, one of God’s seven annual Sabbaths or feasts observed in addition to the weekly Sabbath and it was on that day that the Holy Spirit came.

The Bible shows no evidence of any change at Yeshua’s death and resurrection concerning God’s Sabbaths. We see only a continuation of Yeshua’s followers observing them just as He had done, despite the assertions of some to the contrary.

Revelation states that we are to Worship God.... I would say that would require us to worship Him according to His Commandments. Now I ask you which commandment closely resembles this...
Revelation 14:7
And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

In case you didn't know..
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”