Messianic Judaism vs. Conservative Christianity

[Jase]

The problem with Rabbinic Judaism's concept of the afterlife is that if one is actually a Christian, we have more revelation from God now. The NT is clear about the afterlife on many points. If you reject those points, you are taking a more critical/liberal position on scripture. While you are entitled to do so, you should not be critical of those who take such points more seriously and literally by deeming them to be "not Jewish enough" for you. Remember that in Judaism there are many traditions of interpretation too. The same goes for the Church.

You're assuming the new revelation on Hell is accurate as described. Judaism gained strong influence from the Persians in the 200 years prior to Christ. There is no doubt the Persians had an influence on the developing Judeo-Christian religion. Not to mention, if you were to poll most modern day Christians on their views of Satan/Lucifer/Demons/Hell it would sound straight out of Dante and Milton's fictional works, so I certainly think they had a lot more influence than we give credit for.

 

[Lulav]

If you believed that He is Messiah - I don't think you would consider Him as Yeshu - Yemach Shmo u'Zikro" meaning "may his name be blotted out"

That's not always the case, in Modern Hebrew, Jesus is Yeshu.

Yeshu is not written from Jase with abbreviation signs, so it is not regarded as a "Roshei Tevot" word. Like Tenakh it is written with the highlighted abbreviations letters.

TeNaKh

 

[anisavta]

But when we hear it as a believer we don't think Yeshua. And I don't know of many believers who call Him Yeshu - especially in Israel.

 

[Jase]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is YEC? (I'll probably kick myself when you tell me....)

Young Earth Creationism. The view that the Earth and Universe is 6000 years old, there was a literal flood that covered the entire planet, and that God created every lifeform on Earth as is. YEC was an invention that went along with the Fundamentalist Christian movement in the United States in the 19th/20th Century as a counter attack on the spread of Liberalism and science.

It's not a view that has been held for most of Christian history, and most Jews (save Ultra Orthodox) reject it.

 

[Lulav]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is YEC? (I'll probably kick myself when you tell me....)

Young Earth Creation (the 6,000 year belief)

 

[Jase]

But when we hear it as a believer we don't think Yeshua. And I don't know of many believers who call Him Yeshu - especially in Israel.

I'm not sure what the difference is. Yeshua is Hebrew, Yesua is Aramaic, Iesous is Greek, Iesus is Latin, and English took the Latin as Jesus.

 

[Lulav]

But when we hear it as a believer we don't think Yeshua. And I don't know of many believers who call Him Yeshu - especially in Israel.

Yes, if you heard it you might not be able to tell, but as I said he didn't write it with the abbre highlighted as well as he said this:

I basically consider myself a Reform Jew who believes in Yeshu as the messiah.

 

[ChavaK]

So you do see a difference in Christians and Messianics?

No, I don't...

 

[rsduncan]

No, but then I think Haredi are like conservative Christians in that they rely too much on tradition and inerrancy, and reject the world and evidence around them.

I just think their views are a result of being dead-serious about Torah and Law. I won't hold rejecting the world against them, either. I seem to remember someone warning us against loving the world - John, maybe???

 

[yedida]

Young Earth Creationism. The view that the Earth and Universe is 6000 years old, there was a literal flood that covered the entire planet, and that God created every lifeform on Earth as is. YEC was an invention that went along with the Fundamentalist Christian movement in the United States in the 19th/20th Century as a counter attack on the spread of Liberalism and science.

It's not a view that has been held for most of Christian history, and most Jews (save Ultra Orthodox) reject it.

Thanks for the explanation. I should have figured that, as you're speaking of it and the other views. Oh well, sometimes I can be thick.
I think I put that down as my view in my profile just to pick something. But to be honest I thought young would have been more than 6000years. I don't worry too much about it. It's either young or old and whatever I believe won't change the reality.

Just saw your explanation also Lulav, thanks!!

 

[Jase]

I just think their views are a result of being dead-serious about Torah and Law. I won't hold rejecting the world against them, either. I seem to remember someone warning us against loving the world - John, maybe???

Not quite what I meant. Appreciating the universe and the science behind how things work isn't what I call "loving the world" in Johns context.

 

[rsduncan]

Not quite what I meant. Appreciating the universe and the science behind how things work isn't what I call "loving the world" in Johns context.

Science and the universe aside, their conviction regarding Torah and Law goes a very long way towards explaining their conservatism...

 

[Tea]

So you do see a difference in Christians and Messianics?
​

No, I don't...

Comments like this make me want to cry. "We", used in the collective sense, have failed, if after all this time, even Chavak can't see the difference.
No wonder people come in to this area wanting to know if we are really just fundamental christians. sigh...
​

 

[visionary]

I see a lot of differences and when I post in GT, they will tell you that they see it in my postings too... thinking that the Law of God is unchanging, that the feasts are to be still observed, and to keep the shabbat, kosher, and other such archaic practices...

 

[yedida]

I see a lot of differences and when I post in GT, they will tell you that they see it in my postings too... thinking that the Law of God is unchanging, that the feasts are to be still observed, and to keep the shabbat, kosher, and other such archaic practices...

I know. I've also noticed that a Messianic can't even give a simple non-Torah response in GT without certain posters jumping on their posts and trying to get into the "law debate."
I see a definite distinction between mainstream christianity and MJ. If there is truly no difference then I'd just as soon quit cos there's no place for me in traditional christianity. With the way mainstream is, I don't even want a place for me, that's why I walked away so many years ago.

 

[Lulav]

IN GT they tend to react more to your icon than to the content of your post.

 

[ContraMundum]

You're assuming the new revelation on Hell is accurate as described.

Correct. Wailing, knashing of teeth, fire, all of that stuff Jesus said. Plainly.

Judaism gained strong influence from the Persians in the 200 years prior to Christ. There is no doubt the Persians had an influence on the developing Judeo-Christian religion.

So Jesus, the Son of God and Messiah was not speaking as God but as just another fallible Rabbi under the sway of the religious compromise of His day?

Not to mention, if you were to poll most modern day Christians on their views of Satan/Lucifer/Demons/Hell it would sound straight out of Dante and Milton's fictional works, so I certainly think they had a lot more influence than we give credit for.

Perhaps you might consider the notion that Dante and Milton were influenced by the Bible.

 

[Jase]

Correct. Wailing, knashing of teeth, fire, all of that stuff Jesus said. Plainly.

I've heard various interpretations of that verse. Not all of them include the torture version of hell. The verse is talking about the Jews being cast out. Some commentators state it's a reference to them being cast out into the Gentile world, and no longer worthy of being God's chosen ones. Their anguish is metaphorically viewed as weeping and gnashing.

That verse is not referring to everyone - only the Jews.

So Jesus, the Son of God and Messiah was not speaking as God but as just another fallible Rabbi under the sway of the religious compromise of His day?

What makes you think the Hell doctrine was in the originals? The verse "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" doesn't exist in the earliest manuscript. It was a later addition. Who says eternal torment is original?

Perhaps you might consider the notion that Dante and Milton were influenced by the Bible.

Yes they were. But in Milton's case, he incorporated Paganism and classical mythology, as well as using the Book of Enoch (which is where the Fallen Angel story comes from). Dante strays quite far from the Biblical concept of Hell and Satan.

 

[yedida]

Contra
What about these two verses? The main difference between 21:8 and 22:18 is that in verse 8 we're told all these people are fearful and unbelieving murderers, whoremongers, liars, etc. and verse 18 does not say that they are fearful and unbelieving. It sounds like these are people who believed but didn't make it into the city of the New Jerusalem. They are outside the City, good light close to the city, getting darker and darker the further away they get. Outer darkness, crying and gnashing of teeth - torment - so close, but not quite......
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Tim Myers]

What is this "Fundamentalist/Conservative Christianity" thing??

Are you attempting to say that they are virtually the same thing??