Messiah Ben Joseph & David?

[sickntired771]

I definitely see the argument for Jesus being the suffering servant Messiah Ben Joseph but I am curious what the Messianic argument is for him also fulfilling the role of Messiah Ben David. Surely, we await the fulfillment of all prophecy but how do we know it will be Jesus himself who will be Messiah Ben David?

 

[visionary]

Maybe this thread can give you some insights into this question. http://www.christianforums.com/t7757502/#post63538010

 

[Lulav]

I definitely see the argument for Jesus being the suffering servant Messiah Ben Joseph but I am curious what the Messianic argument is for him also fulfilling the role of Messiah Ben David. Surely, we await the fulfillment of all prophecy but how do we know it will be Jesus himself who will be Messiah Ben David?

Good Question.

He told his disciples that John was Elijah, did he ever say he was David?

 

[pshun2404]

Messiah called "son of David" who is as David in so many prophecies does not indicate that will be His name or that He will be the actual King David. Then there is Zechariah 12:10...


Vehibbiytu elay et asher-daqaru
And they will look unto me whom they pierced

Paul

 

[agua]

Some Pharisees didn't understand this very well, but they should have,

Mat 1:1 KJV The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 22:42-46 KJV Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. (43) He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, (44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (45) If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jacob knew.

Gen 49:10-12 KJV The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (11) Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: (12) His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

David knew

2Sa 7:16-17 KJV And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (17) According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Psa 110:1 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Winesses to His miracles knew.

Mat 12:23 KJV And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

And lastly John knew, and recorded it for us.

Rev 19:11-14 KJV And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 22:16 KJV I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



​

 

[Steve Petersen]

I definitely see the argument for Jesus being the suffering servant Messiah Ben Joseph but I am curious what the Messianic argument is for him also fulfilling the role of Messiah Ben David. Surely, we await the fulfillment of all prophecy but how do we know it will be Jesus himself who will be Messiah Ben David?

The concept of two messiahs was developed from the Scripture by those 'Jewish legalists' you have such a low view of.

 

[sickntired771]

The concept of two messiahs was developed from the Scripture by those 'Jewish legalists' you have such a low view of.

I'd appreciate if you do not pass judgement on me for my theological reasoning not to keep the Torah laws. I don't pass judgement on you for deciding to keep them and I certainly do not regard them as lowly so please do not put words in my mouth.

 

[sickntired771]

Some Pharisees didn't understand this very well, but they should have,

Mat 1:1 KJV The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 22:42-46 KJV Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. (43) He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, (44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (45) If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jacob knew.

Gen 49:10-12 KJV The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (11) Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: (12) His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

David knew

2Sa 7:16-17 KJV And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (17) According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Psa 110:1 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Winesses to His miracles knew.

Mat 12:23 KJV And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

And lastly John knew, and recorded it for us.

Rev 19:11-14 KJV And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 22:16 KJV I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star ​

It is very clear from the NT that the gospels viewed Jesus as the Messiah of David but I wonder if they saw him as the Messiah of Joseph too? It's not clear in scripture that he fulfills both roles. It certainly is clear that there is a distinction between Messiahs or Messianic roles played by the suffering servant and the redeeming King but how do we know both are to be Jesus?

 

[pshun2404]

The concept of two messiahs was developed from the Scripture by those 'Jewish legalists' you have such a low view of.

I have to disagree Steve...they are laid out in scripture (a fact even the so-called "legalists" could not deny) but some groups saw these two line of thought as referring to two different people who each come and others as referring to one person who comes twice (the tradition the Apostles understood....hence the idea of the parousia/epiphnea at the end of the age)...

For example, the Zadokites (thought to be the Essenes by many) of Qumran early on develop a view of two Messiah's one priestly and the next kingly, but as their literature progresses they eventually find the meeting place of these two in a priestly/kingly one who in Gaster's The Dead Sea Scriptures (Gaster being a profound Hebrew Scholar that in no wise was trying to support or encourage a "Christian" connection) comes to be known as a being likened unto Melchizedek (both priest and King) who Gaster calls "Melchizedek revived" (see the Melchizedek Texts).

This tradition was pre-Christian...the Zadokite sect existed not only in the desert but in the communities as well and it is possible many of the earliest followers of Jesus were these very people and as it turns out in the later post-Jesus finds in the caves (see the documents of cave 4 for example) we see many texts that implicate this or at least that they saw Jesus as being this person (one excerpt from Mark's gospel and a few possible others, like one being debated by Carsten Thiedes team, place these writings at a pre-70 A.D. seige time period).

There are two lines of thought regarding messiah but only one account of His birth...as a human in Bethlehem of Judea no doubt, but it goes on to say "who's comings forth are from everlasting" (implicating His eternal nature).

Daniel's visions (though not chronological as far as history is concerned) in chpt 9 speaks clearly of the one who would be "cut off" (reference to Isaiah 53:8) just before the fall of the Holy City when the sacrifices and oblations would cease (which they did following the Jesus events) but in chpt 7 speaks of the one being sent with all authority from the Ancient of Days....it is this one who will come in the clouds with great glory (the one called Messiah ben David)...we merely see them as the same one having come twice as opposed to two different beings

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

The basis of our view of Jesus being both comes from the teachings of Jesus Himself, who IF Messiah later called Yosef (not of the line of Joseph but like unto Joseph, rejected by His brethren, beaten, spat upon, sold for the price of a slave, intended for death but in the end becomes their Savior) will also be (and was called by many) Messiah “son of David”, because when He returns He comes back to defeat the enemies of God’s children and the Holy City, He comes as the Judge of all nations, and will also rule and reign as King of all the earth, and so on. This is the one born in Bethlehem of Judea whose comings were from everlasting. He is the child born (human) and the son given (eternal)…

Paul

 

[Danoh]

It is very clear from the NT that the gospels viewed Jesus as the Messiah of David but I wonder if they saw him as the Messiah of Joseph too? It's not clear in scripture that he fulfills both roles. It certainly is clear that there is a distinction between Messiahs or Messianic roles played by the suffering servant and the redeeming King but how do we know both are to be Jesus?

Hope this helps - The sufferings of His 1st Advent and the glory to follow - at His Return...

Luke 9:

43. And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
44. Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Luke 17:

22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luke 24:

13. And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14. And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18. And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19. And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth,
which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20. And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23. And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 1:

3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Likewise with why His Two-Fold Coming was not understood as in Two Phases...

1 Peter 1:

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

 

[sickntired771]

Excellent post Danoh, thank you very much. Luke 17 and 24 are particularly compelling.

 

[agua]

It is very clear from the NT that the gospels viewed Jesus as the Messiah of David but I wonder if they saw him as the Messiah of Joseph too? It's not clear in scripture that he fulfills both roles. It certainly is clear that there is a distinction between Messiahs or Messianic roles played by the suffering servant and the redeeming King but how do we know both are to be Jesus?

Because there is only one Messiah with the attributes of the suffering Servant and victoriuos King. Where in scripture do you see indication that there are 2 separate Messiah ?

 

[Lulav]

According to Matthew, the ancient sages knew he was King

Where is he that is born King of the Jews?

Yeshua knew he was King

then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied , and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying ,: Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold , thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

And the multitudes that went before , and that followed , cried , saying , Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

The Romans knew he was King, even though that held no weight under Roman law

And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying , Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest . And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying , Hail , King of the Jews!

His 'crime' was written upon a board and nailed to the cross with him

And set up over his head his accusation written , THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

In the book of John we see one of his apostles saying:

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.



After the miracle of the fishes and loaves we see that his own disciples wanted to make him King so he left them

12 When they were filled , he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain , that nothing be lost . 13 Therefore they gathered them together , and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten . 14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did , said , This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. 15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force , to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

 

[Jon Anon]

8:00 minutes to 11:00 tells the calculations of the two dates
[youtube]Isaac Newton's Brilliant Breakdown of Daniel's 70 weeks points to 2015: https://youtu.be/rd5VwlvcsVs[/youtube]


:clappa:
[/quote]

I don't believe this will be Jesus but I do believe if newtons calculations are right it could be one of the two anointed......the one appears before the other and the one that appears first is elijah or as the jews know him messiah ben joseph....one of the two princes



:elijahtheprophet:


25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Daniel chapter 9 people there is no linquistic basis to add those two number the 49 and 62 and doing so does violence to the language of Daniel...those two numbers are separate and speak of the first coming and the second coming...62 weeks was fulfilled with the first coming and the......june 7 1967 began the 49 year count when Israel captured Jerusalem and the temple mount.........add the 49 years according to Newtons riddle to June 7 1967 and you use 360 prophetic days of years times 49 and you come up with 17640 days and from the day Jerusalem was captured til 17640 days later is the "day of atonement 2015"

18:00 minutes to 25:00 minutes
[youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQeUzm3I9Kk[/youtube]



Newton’s Riddle from 1727
[/quote]









....


I don't believe this will be Jesus but I do believe if newtons calculations are right it could be one of the two anointed......the one appears before the other and the one that appears first is elijah or as the jews know him messiah ben joseph....one of the two princes

....



Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

New Living TranslationNow listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler--the Anointed One--comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

English Standard VersionKnow therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

New American Standard Bible "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

King James BibleKnow therefore and understand, thatfrom the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Princeshall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Holman Christian Standard BibleKnow and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.

International Standard VersionSo be informed and discern that seven weeks and 62 weeks will elapse from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed Commander. The plaza and moat will be rebuilt, though in troubled times.

NET BibleSo know and understand: From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives, there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will again be built, with plaza and moat, but in distressful times.

GOD'S WORD® TranslationLearn, then, and understand that from the time the command is given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed prince comes, seven sets of seven time periods and sixty-two sets of seven time periods will pass. Jerusalem will be restored and rebuilt with a city square and a moat during the troubles of those times.

Jubilee Bible 2000Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to cause the people to return and to build Jerusalem unto the Anointed {Heb. Messiah} Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, while the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times.

King James 2000 BibleKnow therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

American King James VersionKnow therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

American Standard VersionKnow therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

Douay-Rheims BibleKnow thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times

. Darby Bible TranslationKnow therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times.

English Revised VersionKnow therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks: and threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

Webster's Bible TranslationKnow therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

World English BibleKnow therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.

Young's Literal TranslationAnd thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
[/quote]

Could this be the 2nd stage of Elijahs appearance...the first was in an unholy way to the jewish people(internet)and will reveal himself to a few people...then the 2nd stage he will be revealed to the whole nation...will it happen on the "DAY OF ATONEMENT" September 23 2015?

[youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jayyKxWA810[/youtube]


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19L9D-ybSGg[/youtube]

 

[Yekcidmij]

I definitely see the argument for Jesus being the suffering servant Messiah Ben Joseph

Except he was from the tribe of Judah. Wouldn't he have to be from the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim/Manasseh in order to be a Messiah ben Joseph? The NT authors seem pretty adamant that he was from Judah-David.