Men ruling over women?

[KTskater]

I've read countless verses about men ruling over women and I simply can't fathom it. We can't choose what sex we're born as, just like we can't choose weather or not to be born sinners. But God gave us a way out of the penilties of death (for sin) so do men still rule over women? I just think it's totally unfair and I'm not reading the Bible as much because I feel like God hates women to some degree. Paul says they shouldn't preach or teach or talk in church. Basicly that we should shut up and do whatever any man says.
I'm I way off on this? I hope I am.

 

[chilibowl]

men and women have different roles in the church is all.. one is not better than another we just have different jobs... and depending on how you view things will determine on how you accept or turn on this precept.. if you turn know that you will not be the first.. in fact many have peiced together a "new" understanding of scripture where women share the responcablities of men/leadership.. Although this "New" idea isn't new nor is it scriptural it seems to be accepted by many of us because most of us view what god has ordained as holy to be shovensistic and wrong "It makes women lower than men"...
But again, it all depends on how you were raise and where..

in the states girls are taught that women can do anything that a guy can do and sometimes better.. look at the media and what we watch for fun on TV.. "friends, will and grace, king of queens..ect" all are good examples of stupid men continually being saved by a strong educated woman... If you asking yourself what's wrong with "Strong educated women?" then the answer is nothing... but why aren't you asking what wrong with stupid men? The men God wants us to be are not worried or consumed by the trivial things that the sitcom world have us want..

In other parts of the world women are are held under men as second class citizens.. this is not right either..

It is as simple or as complex as this:
Men have a job "Which includes leadership" amoung many other things.
Women have a job "Which includes: Following the leaders" amoung many other things.

we were CREATED with these things in mind.. God created man.. and this was not good enough by himself.. from man god created woman, after the completion of woman god saw what he created was good!
It takes man and woman working together in the way we were designed to be considered good "A complete creation"

I know all of this has a sharp sting if you hearing all of this for the first time. espically if you grew up here in the states. It took me several years to wrap around this precept as well.. I never understood why god made men better than women.. then over time he was able to get it thru my thick head he didn't make men better.. "Better" is a term or feeling that the "Evil one" infects us with, trying to undermind gods design...

We aren't better.. just different.. it's kinda like saying:
it's not fair that women can make/carry babies and men can't.. how is that fair?? you can't choose what sex your born. What if I wanted to know what it was like to conceive and carry to term another human life?? I'd never be able to naturally right? does that make you better? No. just different, you have a role to play in continuing our species and so do I. One is not better than the other we are just different!

I hope that helps..

GLGB

 

[Radagast]

... Basicly that we should shut up and do whatever any man says...

You're way, way off.

As chilibowl says, the Bible speaks of different roles for men and women in the Church.

It also speaks of husband-and-wife roles, in ways that are challenging to both men and women.

But it never says women are inferior to men, or that women should "shut up and do whatever any man says." Anyone who says that is wrong.

...in the states girls are taught that women can do anything that a guy can do and sometimes better...

And they can!

...Men have a job "Which includes leadership" amoung many other things.
Women have a job "Which includes: Following the leaders" amoung many other things.

I'm not quite happy with that wording. Both men and women are created in the image of God, and that includes leadership as a role for both.

The Bible says that a husband should exercise leadership over his wife, and it also speaks of men exercising the top-level leadership in the Church, but it does not say that women were created only to follow.

A woman who only followed would not be living up to her potential -- think of some of the famous Christian women from history.

So far my two cents worth. This is an issue on which not all Christians agree, and one that causes heated debate.

God bless,

-- Radagast

 

[Radagast]

...think of some of the famous Christian women from history...

Like St Theresa of Avila, who founded a new order of nuns, was prioress of a convent, and wrote several books on spirituality: http://www.karmel.at/eng/teresa.htm

and Hildegard von Bingen, also a writer and leader of a convent: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/hildegarde.html

and St. Catherine of Siena, writer and diplomat: http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/siena.html

and Mary Slessor, missionary: http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/biorpslessor.html

and Clara Barton, founder of the American Red Cross: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/bartonclara/index.htm

and any number of famous queens...

and of course Priscilla, missionary and teacher (Acts 18:18, Acts 18:26, Romans 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16:19).

-- Radagast

 

[vinc]

Because Eve was decieved first by the Devil, therefore it is generally feared that womankind maybe more susceptible to the deceptions of the Devil. So, as a general safety guideline women are being suggested to adhere to their Male counterparts. However, this cannot be applied for all men and for all women. For i have seen some women more spiritual than some men. And i have also seen some men more spiritual than women. I have seen Wives ruling their Husbands (either directly or indirectly). And i have seen some wives excellently submissive to their husbands because of their love for their husbands and their husbands reciprocating them in love. If there is mutual love then there is mutual submission also. The question of ruling does not come. We can take like this also that both are ruling each other in love. Both can speak out to their hearts content, learn and grow.

God does not hate women at all. He sees both Men and Women alike as His Sons and Daughters. And God blessed both Men and Women.

Genesis 1:27,28 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Paul said to Timothy that women ought to teach or usurp authority over man and to be in silence in the Church (1 Timothy 2:12). This could be with regard to doctrinal matters of the Church so that the Church may not be decieved by any woman. This rule cannot be applied universally for all women and in all situations. If one sticks to this verse alone and makes it a major issue than he/she has gone to extremity and needs balanced thinking.

I am grateful to my Grandmother and my Mother who taught me Bible-stories and Scriptures right from my childhood.

Christianity is love-based first and rule-based next.

Matthew 22:30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

The above verse clearly indicates that both Men and Women would be as Angels in Heaven. And all Angels are given equal preference by God although there are a few Archangels who are above them in responsibility.

Romans 8:16,17 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

The above verse clearly indicates that we (men and women) are joint-heirs with Christ.

1 Corinthians 7:3 - Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

The above verse is from Paul which clearly indicates his thought that both husbands and wives should give due love and respect to each other.

Some christians have majored on minor issues and have created gender-differences. But, this is not how God thinks nor any sincere christian would think. All such gender-differences are due to a lack of a balanced understanding of the Word of God and the Mind of God.

Fathe-God chose Mary (a woman) to give birth to His beloved Son Jesus Christ. The whole world would not have obtained salvation from sins if Mary did not give birth to Lord Jesus Christ and made herself as a useful vessel to be the Mother of our Lord.

The Bible also mentions that some women financed Jesus like Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Suzanna etc. in His public ministry on earth (Luke 8:3). It is also written in the Gospel of Thomas that Lord Jesus Christ liked Mary Magdalene the most among all His Disciples. And it is first to a woman (i.e Mary Magdalene) that Lord Jesus Christ appears to after His Resurrection.

Nowadays, Feminism has grown and women are more powerful than men. Although this is another extreme which is not part of Christianity. At the same time women are to be given equal love, consideration and respect as men in Christendom.

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Apostle Paul clearly speaks to Galatians in the above verse that there is no differentiation in Christianity as male or female as we are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we walk in Godly Love and Humbleness then we never get gender-differences and gender-quarrels at all.

Lastly, i read that the Hebrew name for God is "Elohim" where "Eloh" means the male part and "Im" means the female part.

I can go on writing how God used women in a great and mighty way throughout the centuries right from Adam's creation and till now (obtained from various sources on the Net). But, that is going to take a lot of time.

I hope this many inputs encourage you. They are my personal opinions.

 

[KTskater]

Okay,
I think I understand better. I also read somethign in Civics class today, a speach by Sojourner Truth. She talked about how Christ came from God and a woman, that the only thing man had to do with Christ was that Christ was a man.
So we do have an eqaul part in Christ.
Thanks for all you help.

 

[chilibowl]

in the states girls are taught that women can do anything that a guy can do and sometimes better...

Ragast, my argument is not to determine which sex is better, but to show the flaw in this line of thinking.. That one in fact is better than the other.. infact most of us think this way why else is there such oposition to the Idea the men have roles in a biblical relationship that are unique to men... The point i was trying to make was not that women couldn't do the job better or even as good.. It is a matter of place or full fillment of a role given to us by god...

 

[chilibowl]

and any number of famous queens...

and of course Priscilla, missionary and teacher (Acts 18:18, Acts 18:26, Romans 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16:19).



Your scripture confuses me.. the verses you give show nothing more than a mention of a husband and wife TEAM that made a profound impact TOGETHER on the first century church... It says nothing to the fact she did all of this on her own.. Just as those two worked as one we all should work with our male or female partners as god intended... it is when we work in our perspective roles are we able to make an impact as a Aquila and Priscilla did!

The other ladies made there mark on the world, and there is nothing wrong with that if that's what god called you to do...
But the Original question was:
"I feel like God hates women to some degree. Paul says they shouldn't preach or teach or talk in church. Basicly that we should shut up and do whatever any man says."
this question shouts of a misunderstanding of the roles that men and women play and that one is better than another.. by fueling the arguement with examples of great women in history you help propergate the Idea the women are inferrior... why else would you need an example that shows the greatness of women and they can do the same things as men can or better, if you didn't feel that the roles we play are equal but different..

I'm not trying to pick an arguement with you but only hold you to a higherstandard. We in the church need to let go of the pervious generations "Hippy" toughts of equality and return to the foundational truths of the bible.. What you said was true about women fulfill many many roles in scripture and some are indeed in leadership position. but in most examples given this is a result of filling an empty or vaccant spot and when a qualified leader was found they role was given over.. Unless you can show other wise IN scripture, then know anyother responce will be from "Feeling" and can be dicussed but not taught as truth.(With the blessing from God)

 

[KTskater]

uhm...I'm not quite sure I understood that. So we're not eqaul? man I feel like for every question I ask there are 4 different "right" answers.

 

[Radagast]

So we do have an equal part in Christ.

Yes we do:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

-- Radagast

 

[Radagast]

...and of course Priscilla, missionary and teacher (Acts 18:18, Acts 18:26, Romans 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16:19).

Your scripture confuses me.. the verses you give show nothing more than a mention of a husband and wife TEAM that made a profound impact TOGETHER on the first century church.

Yes, they were a team. One in which Priscilla played an important part (she didn't just "make the coffee").

... why else would you need an example that shows the greatness of women and they can do the same things as men can or better, if you didn't feel that the roles we play are equal but different..

I agree with different roles for men and women in marriage and in the Church, but you have to be careful not to go beyond what the Bible says.

Women can and should exercise important leadership roles in society, in the Church (in most churches, for example, women lead Bible-study groups, music ministries, and mission work), and in the family (as a mother).

My examples of "great women" were carefully chosen to be leadership roles compatible with the Bible.

-- Radagast

 

[Radagast]

man I feel like for every question I ask there are 4 different "right" answers.

Inevitably on this one, since many Christians have different perspectives on the whole man/woman thing.

-- Radagast

 

[Tenorvoice]

I would advise you to go to this site and listen to what Dr. Adrien Rogers has to say on this subject. You have great timing, he is peaching on this subject right now as I type to you on the radio. He can do a much better job than I ever could.

www.LWF.org and click on todays brodcast. (5-6-05) for the Radio.

God Bless

 

[Sketcher]

uhm...I'm not quite sure I understood that. So we're not eqaul? man I feel like for every question I ask there are 4 different "right" answers.

Equal value, different roles. In fact, books that sneak false doctrine inside were rejected and not included in the Bible in part because of the harsh things they say about women. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, has Jesus saying that women must become men before they enter Heaven. That is VERY different from the teachings of the true Jesus and even Paul (whose teaching in fact was liberating to women of his day).

 

[Nom De Guerre]

I'm sure, as some people feel this is a tiresome subject, that most people are aware of the scriptures in Genesis regarding how Adam and Eve were evicted from the utopia.

Genesis 3:1-7

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
...

Genesis 3:9-16
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

likewise as it's written in 1 Timothy 2:9-15, ending in the verse which examples the wife to be "...saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

This isn't to say that Adam was without his own discipline, Genesis 3 goes on...

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Here we find that both man and woman have been evicted, but one to by under the other... both are taken into the desolate place we call Earth and both are under their own disciplinary actions.

Wherefore, even the 144,000 in the book of Revelation tell us that they shall be virgins, not defiled by women...

Revelation 14:3-4

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


These things, evidence of the laws of God past and present, do not mean that women cannot be Angels themselves, for I have heard the voice of the the sweetest Angel and she was far more Holy than some other Angels I have heard in the past. Man and women were once equal, but for now the women are under the rule of men; but, as I believe someone else pointed out...

Matthew 22:29-30

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.



Grace and peace be upon you all.

 

[KTskater]

Okay but how far should the authority be taken? I mean I don't think my dad has any right (I'm saying he does this though) to lay around on the couch watching TV and order my mom to make him dinner without even a "thank you" or an "I love you" at least.
And does that mean my younger brothers who would make me clean their rooms and scrub there feet have authority over me even though I'm older and have more knowledge about life and God's word?

 

[Nom De Guerre]

As scriptures indicate:

Ephesians 5:25-33

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

that women are a part of the body of Christ and should also be loved, even as we love ourselves.


The one thing which I had been given to by thought was that a lot of women feel quite disheartened by this, and even believe its a plot against them...

I urge you to look inside of yourself and the life you've lived... do you hear that conscience which men do not have... the rapidness of your mind and your heart... even the worldly doctrines understand men and women are substantially different... consider birth pains, menopause, even menstration...

 

[Nom De Guerre]

What do these things have to do with bein' under the rule of men... you might ask, and adequately so.

It was by Gods' authority that you were made, that His laws were defined, and that women were given much more burdens... these are reminders from days of the past. All of such things are indeed burdensome, but women also have the blessing of being tender and caring; a gift made for their hearts and personal freedom, as short-fallen as it comes and goes... women, past and present, understand that they're never really satisfied with who they are, nor with all associated emotional and intellectual "revelations"... but, rather settle for what they believe satisfies them for the time being; so they can recall that moment when they, again, become disheartened and taken in anguish.

Such is only the earthly knowledge of women, matters concerning Heaven again have been presented in earlier posts(i.e. Galatians 3:27-29)

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

which promise!?

2 Corinthians 6: 16-18

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

God even categorizes his children according to male and female... now, it is true that some of the sons and daughter scriptures are also reference to lands; however, again... in the beginning, they were made male and female...

I know it must seem like I'm perhaps myopic... but these things have been true since the beginning...

Proverbs 30:5-6

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

 

[Radagast]

... thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.... In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread...

Those things are the consequence of sin, and it's a good thing to work to soften them. Or do you think obstetrics and farm machinery are sinful?

-- Radagast

 

[Radagast]

And does that mean my younger brothers who would make me clean their rooms and scrub there feet have authority over me even though I'm older and have more knowledge about life and God's word?

No -- it's not true that all men have authority over all women. Nothing in the Bible would support such a claim by your brothers.

-- Radagast