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Meet the People Who Were Passed Over For Obama

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by salida, Oct 9, 2009.

  1. Gawron

    Gawron Well-Known Member

    The Big Whatever....It is the clear responsibility of the federal government to see to the common defense of the citizens of the country. You admit that there are those out there who hate us, and would want to see us dead. Thankfully, there are many who see this as more than just a big whoop.
  2. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

    Certainly there's nothing new to the concept of people hating us and wanting us dead. We never lived in fear before... why start now?

    Because while our government is responsible for setting up a system with which to protect us, the inescapable truth is that no system is foolproof... it will have cracks, and people determined enough to cause us harm will find and exploit those cracks.

    This fact has come as a great surprise to some people, who have elected to panic. I choose not to.

    Sorry. :sorry:
  3. Gawron

    Gawron Well-Known Member

    You are tilting at windmills. No-one expects you to panic, has asked you to panic, or wants you to panic. What is wanted is some simple reason applied to the issue.

    The nature of this particular group of people who hate us and want us dead is unlike that of any other enemy this country has faced. They are tribal in nature, loyal to no particular set of boarders. They cannot be appeased or bargained with in any sense which is lasting. And if every Jewish person in the world was dead and every American in the world was dead they would simply continue to feed on each other.

    You keep harping on "fear mongering", as if. I am talking about the nature of these people in the same sense that, whereas I wouldn't want you to be afraid of polar bears in the wild, I would at least expect you to at acknowledge the nature of polar bears in the wild.

    But when it comes to the nature of Islamic Fundamentalist, for some reason you would deny the truth about them all the way up until that moment one of them put a sword to your throat. And probably even then.
  4. Belk

    Belk Senior Member

    Wow! I would hate to see what that paragraph would have read like if you were fear mongering. ^_^
  5. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

    Which I use, Senior Quixote.

    Every enemy is unique... but I grant you, these are special, but probably not for the reasons you think.

    Certainly not loyal to the borders we tried to put them in...

    After all, who draw up the maps of the Middle Eastern nations? Certainly not themselves.

    Frankenstein's Monster wasn't going to be appeased by the good Doctor, either.

    of course they would... just as they were doing before the west got involved.

    Don't you see, Gawron? What makes this enemy different is that, at every level from the ground up, we created them. We divided up their lands for our own convenience, we staked our own claims on their resources, we planted ourselves smack in their holiest lands with armed troops, and we handed a portion of their lands over to their enemies because the enemies' holy book says they deserve it.

    ... and all this time, we spout empty rhetoric like "Radical Islam is EEEEVVVILLLL!!!" and "They hate us for our FREEEEEDOM!!!!!"

    ...When the truth is, this is and has always been our own mess. Our neglected and abused children are grown up and very, very upset with us.

    Only problem is, they're not in "the wild." They're in the zoo we built for them. Can we acknowledge that?

    I know the truth all too well... I saw the truth the morning of 9/11/01... and you, sir, do not know the truth.
  6. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

    Indeed... reads like the plotline of a Zombie movie.
  7. exotic walrus

    exotic walrus Well-Known Member

    Hahahaha. ^_^

    OogyBoogy I am the Islamic fundamentalist out to get you for no social or economical reasons just from crazy hatred!
  8. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

    There's actually a kernel of truth to this... the conflict has drawn on so long, it's probably not so much about social or economic inequities as it is personal.

    At this point, it's more of a "they killed my uncle so I killed their cousin then they killed my brother so THEY MUST DIE!" type of scenario.

    Of course, if we've learned nothing else, it's that that kind of irrational hatred goes both ways.
  9. Gawron

    Gawron Well-Known Member

    Posted by The Lady Kate:

    “Certainly not loyal to the borders we tried to put them in…”

    We? You don’t define the “we” or the “them” you are specifically talking about, but I will proceed from the baseline of America as we, Muslims as them, and Israel as the thorn in everyone’s side.


    “Archeological findings indicate human activity in Iran during the middle Paleolithic era, about 100,000 years ago. The sixth millennium B.C. saw a fairly sophisticated agricultural society and proto-urban population centers. Many dynasties have ruled Iran starting with the Achaemenid (559-330 B.C.) founded by Cyrus the Great. After the conquest of Persia by Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic period (300-250 B.C.) came the Parthian (250 B.C.-226 A.D.) and the Sassanian (226-651) dynasties.”

    Source: http://geography.about.com/gi/dynami...i/bgn/5314.htm

    Seems Iran has been around for some time. However…

    “During World War Two, Iran had been a vital link in the Allied supply line for lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union. After the war, Soviet troops stationed in northwestern Iran not only refused to withdraw but backed revolts that established short-lived, pro-Soviet separatist regimes in the northern regions of Azerbaijan and Kurdistan. These ended in 1946. The Azerbaijani revolt crumbled after U.S. and United Nations (UN) pressure forced a Soviet withdrawal. Iranian forces also suppressed the Kurdish uprising.”

    Is that how we put them in their borders, by helping to force the Soviets out?


    “In 1961, Iran administered a series of economic, social, and administrative reforms--pushed by the Kennedy administration--that became known as the Shah's White Revolution. The core of this program was land reform. Modernization and economic growth proceeded at an unprecedented rate, fueled by Iran's vast petroleum reserves, the third-largest in the world. However, his autocratic method of rule and pro-western policies alienated large sectors of the population, including the Shia clergy.”

    Maybe the Kennedy administration should have stayed out of internal Iranian policies, thus saving future administrations from having to deal with follow on events. But I don’t see where we put them into borders they are not loyal to. Source for the above paragraphs quoted are the same.


    “The Durand Line is the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which stretches approximately 2,640 kilometers (1,610 miles). It was established after the 1893 Durand Line Treaty to serve as the limit of British influence.”

    “The area in which the border runs is inhabited by ethnic Pashtun tribes since at least the time of Alexander the Great in 330 BC.”

    Source: Durand Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    330BC - 1776. Yep, we did it. No, wait…

    Clash erupts between Afghan, Pakistani forces over border fence


    “Kabul/Islamabad - Cross-border shooting erupted after Afghan army troops tore down part of a fence tore down part of a fence newly erected by the Pakistani side on disputed territory that is often used by Taliban militants, officials said on Friday.”

    “The Durand Line was drawn by British India in 1893 to keep Afghanistan as a buffer state.”

    Source: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...r_border_fence

    I guess you could blame British Imperialism or Colonialism as the root cause, and by extension Western Civilization, and by extension……

    But you are correct about one thing, the border does seem to be in dispute.

    Go West, Young Durand Line, Go West


    “The Durand Line, for those of you not in the know, is the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Funnily enough, it seems to be moving westward.”

    “One of the things that Pakistan wants is for Afghanistan to recognize the Durand Line. Afghanistan has, throughout history, refused to do so. This habit has continued into the Karzai administration. So you can see why Pakistan, which is under some debatable threat of state failure and disintegration, is so sensitive about the issue. And more than a few non-Pashtuns in Afghanistan are not to psyched about the prospect of being in a state with 11 million additional Pashtuns.”

    Source: http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com...-line-go-west/

    So this particular border is in dispute, but I don’t see how “we” are trying to put “them” into a border which “they” don’t want. The issue was a problem before America became a world power, and the nations involved don’t seem to need any of our help to continue making an issue out of it.

    “After all, who draw up the maps of the Middle Eastern nations? Certainly not themselves.”

    This is a valid point. According to various accounts the borders were established in conjunction with or compliance to the self-interest of European governments. The following excerpts are from a good article which addresses what may be your point, in that allowing those in the Middle East to adjust their borders may lead to some stability in the region overall.

    Blood Borders


    “The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa’s borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.”

    “While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region’s comprehensive failure isn’t Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.”

    End Quote.

    Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that diplomats, ours apparently included, may want to keep the borders as they are, but the United States did not establish them.

    From the same article, I found this passage interesting.


    “Iran, a state with madcap boundaries, would lose a great deal of territory to Unified Azerbaijan, Free Kurdistan, the Arab Shia State and Free Baluchistan, but would gain the provinces around Herat in today’s Afghanistan — a region with a historical and linguistic affinity for Persia. Iran would, in effect, become an ethnic Persian state again, with the most difficult question being whether or not it should keep the port of Bandar Abbas or surrender it to the Arab Shia State.”

    End Quote. Link: Blood borders - June 2006 - Armed Forces Journal - Military Strategy, Global Defense Strategy

    I wonder how the leadership of Iran would react to the notion of giving up any land to anyone for the sake of stability.

    “Frankenstein's Monster wasn't going to be appeased by the good Doctor, either.”

    Until the good doctor was dead.

    “of course they would... just as they were doing before the west got involved.”

    Is your point here that the involvement of the west has, in actuality, done nothing to change the nature of the Islamic fundamentalist? If so, you are making my point.

    “What makes this enemy different is that, at every level from the ground up, we created them.”

    Islam was founded in 622 AD by Mohammed the Prophet.

    Or you could be referring to this part of Amercan history.

    Zbigniew Brzezinski:

    How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen


    Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

    Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

    Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

    Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

    End Quote. Link: No Regrets: Carter, Brzezinski and the Muj

    So maybe we did create them, or at least a faction which holds a grudge. But apparently you will have to blame Carter for that as well.

    “We divided up their lands for our own convenience”


    “we staked our own claims on their resources”

    Ah, yes. The Blood for Oil mantra. If this is true, where is all that oil flowing from Iraq into our country?

    “we planted ourselves smack in their holiest lands with armed troops”

    Ah, yes, the American Imperialist mantra. We are to respect their “holiest lands” when they think nothing of attacking America and Americans whenever and wherever they may be found? Terrorism against the United States did not start with September 11th, 2001.

    “and we handed a portion of their lands over to their enemies because the enemies' holy book says they deserve it.”

    You may need to expand on this a bit. Which enemies holy book says who deserves what?

    “When the truth is, this is and has always been our own mess.”

    If you want a chronology of Muslin history, follow this link:

    Islamic History (Chronology)

    The time-line begins in 545. We show up in during World War Two, but not in any capacity to oppress the Islamic masses. Our hand appears again in 1948, in conjunction with the establishment of the state of Israel. Iran and Iraq fought each other from 1980 until 1989. In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwait, and we went to liberate Kuwait from that aggression, leaving Hussein in power after that effort. We have backed Israel since it was established, but I do not see this as justification for hating America and wanting us destroyed as some apparently do.

    On another note, I have never said “they” hate us for our freedom. I have said they hate us because we exist. I’ve seen it myself.

    “I know the truth all too well... I saw the truth the morning of 9/11/01”

    According to you, in your own words, the truth you saw was a “mosquito bite.” Is that not an accurate quote? But I suppose you are following the line that the events of that day were the fault of America, we brought it on ourselves. What about the bombing of the USS Cole? I ask because I want to be clear on exactly whose policies you are blaming for the horrible thing we did to ourselves on September 11th, 2001.
  10. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

    Well, if the bordering nations in question want to adjust their borders, who's to say no?

    Probably not much different from how the leadership of America would react to giving Texas back to Mexico if it meant stopping illegal immigration.

    You game?

    See... here's the issue. You're still seeing Islam as the enemy. My position is that if we (that is to say, Europe/America) put anyone through what we've done to the Middle East, they'd be mighty ticked off at us regardless of their religious affiliation.

    I've got no problem with that... did you think I would?

    Never said it did... of course, we were planting military bases near their holy lands long before 9/11/01 as well.

    Out of curiousity, can you find Mecca on a map?

    Perhaps a Palestinian can explain it better.

    Remember whose side we were on?

    Which was, in hindsight, a very wise move.

    Since where does hate need a justification?

    Actually, the real quesiton is not who wants us destroyed or even why, but whether they have a snowball's chance in hades of ever coming close.

    Since they do not, what's the problem?

    If you say so... :yawn:

    Just putting things in perspective... apparantly you think Al-Qaeda has the power to destroy America. I was trying to re-acquaint you with reality.

    I shall try harder in the future.

    What line is that? I simply refuse to see the middle eastern radicals as mindless maniacs... the sociopolitical causes are not as simple as "America good, Islam bad."

    What about it? According to eyewitness accounts, the sailors on deck actually waved to the bombers in the small craft just before it blew.

    Did I ever... EVER say that we did 9/11 to ourselves? Don't try to pull that line with saomeone who was there ever again.
  11. Gawron

    Gawron Well-Known Member

    I am going to respond to one section of your post.

    Posted by The Lady Kate:

    "Just putting things in perspective... apparantly you think Al-Qaeda has the power to destroy America. I was trying to re-acquaint you with reality."

    How many nukes or dirty-nukes going off in America do you think it would take to seriously alter the face of our nation?

    "What line is that? I simply refuse to see the middle eastern radicals as mindless maniacs..."

    I have never characterized them as mindless maniacs. They are radical fundamentalist willing to commit mass murder without hesitation or remorse.

    "What about it? According to eyewitness accounts, the sailors on deck actually waved to the bombers in the small craft just before it blew."

    So? What point are you trying to make here? The sailors waved, therefore....what? They deserved to be blown to bits?

    "Did I ever... EVER say that we did 9/11 to ourselves? Don't try to pull that line with saomeone who was there ever again."

    This is an interesting comment. Twice now during our discussions I have made the point that I have been to the middle east while in the service of the US Military, drawing on that experience to make a point about the enemy of which we speak. On both occasions, you insulted that service. Now, however, you demand respect for the experience of being in New York on Sept. 11th and what you saw there, which by your own words amounted to nothing more than a mosquito bite. Hmmm.....
  12. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest


    How many does Al-Qaeda have?

    All of them? Or just a small, relatively impotent group?

    I know you have this great fantasy going about these guys hoarding nuclear weapons, but really...

    You brought up the Cole for no reason... I thought we were having a random trivia contest.

    Your comment was more random... I guess you win.

    Did I now? Quotes, please?

    You really have no concept of the big picture, do you, Gawron?

    Al-Qaeda was a small-time group of thugs who've caught us flat-footed... They get lucky because we get careless. Nobody more than me wants to make sure what happened on 9/11 never happens again... but the only way that's going to actually happen is to wade through the chaff and find real solutions.

    And you've delivered nothing but chaff.