Meet the New Freshmen in Congress: More Democrats, Diversity and Women

[Aldebaran]

Rule #1: Accuse your opponents of having your weaknesses.
Ringo

Yes, Saul Alinsky.
Saul Alinsky's 13 Tried-and-True Rules for Creating Meaningful Social Change | Open Culture

 

[Aldebaran]

Again, the context of this discussion is the fairly constant drumbeat of African Americans dying during interactions with police or, in the case of Zimmerman, self-appointed vigilantes.

While addressing this, would you prefer to ignore crimes committed by blacks, or the black on black gang shootings? One recent example is when a car drove up to another car and opened fire on a black family, killing a 7 year old girl. It was thought to have been a racially motivated hate crime until they discovered it was 2 black guys who did it. But incidents like this aren't what we want to talk about, of course.

 

[Aldebaran]

Which still isn't a divisive comment "against white people".

Then saying something that recognizes a person for being white isn't "racist" either.

 

[LiberalChristian1980]

While addressing this, would you prefer to ignore crimes committed by blacks, or the black on black gang shootings? One recent example is when a car drove up to another car and opened fire on a black family, killing a 7 year old girl. It was thought to have been a racially motivated hate crime until they discovered it was 2 black guys who did it. But incidents like this aren't what we want to talk about, of course.

Most people who are murdered are murdered by someone of their own ethnic background. All murders should be taken seriously and investigated and prosecuted vigorously.

However, the topic that puts President Obama's comments in context was not murders in general, or even murders of African-American males in general, but the killing of African-American males by authority figures who presumed violent intent in an encounter that, statistically, they would have been less likely to presume violent intent or respond with violence towards someone who was not an African-American male.

Or, to be blunt: there is significant statistical evidence that an encounter between the police and a young black male is more likely to result in violence against the young black male than is a comparable encounter between the police and a young white male. This is a problem, and one of many ways that systemic bias exists within our justice system. We need to fix the ways that our justice system responds to crimes by black perpetrator with more violence than it does to crimes by white perpetrators, the ways that our system imposes higher penalties on black people convicted of crimes than it does white people convicted of crimes, etc.

 

[Aldebaran]

Most people who are murdered are murdered by someone of their own ethnic background. All murders should be taken seriously and investigated and prosecuted vigorously.

However, the topic that puts President Obama's comments in context was not murders in general, or even murders of African-American males in general, but the killing of African-American males by authority figures who presumed violent intent in an encounter that, statistically, they would have been less likely to presume violent intent or respond with violence towards someone who was not an African-American male.

Supposing that was actually what was presumed by Zimmerman, he was proven correct.

Or, to be blunt: there is significant statistical evidence that an encounter between the police and a young black male is more likely to result in violence against the young black male than is a comparable encounter between the police and a young white male. This is a problem, and one of many ways that systemic bias exists within our justice system. We need to fix the ways that our justice system responds to crimes by black perpetrator with more violence than it does to crimes by white perpetrators, the ways that our system imposes higher penalties on black people convicted of crimes than it does white people convicted of crimes, etc.

You should watch some of the recordings of these incidents. The black male is often argumentative and uncooperative and throwing his hands around and making moves that indicate that he is either about to reach for a weapon or get violent toward the officer in some other way. An officer's job is already hard enough without having someone they're dealing with acting in a way that appears threatening. But then if things turn ugly, the accusations of racism get thrown around if the arresting officer is white.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, there is.

There is a national trend of young white men being killed? Proof please.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016...-shootings-killings-racism-racial-disparities

And please note, I am not saying that young white men are never wrongly shot by police--sadly they are. But it seems that a higher percentage of young black men are wrongly shot by police.

 

[Aldebaran]

There is a national trend of young white men being killed? Proof please.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016...-shootings-killings-racism-racial-disparities

And please note, I am not saying that young white men are never wrongly shot by police--sadly they are. But it seems that a higher percentage of young black men are wrongly shot by police.

Which ones commit more crimes?
Before you try to tell me that there's no proof that black people commit more crimes, but rather they're just targeted for suspicion because they're black, I've seen plenty of instances in my area where a black person was caught in the act. Around here, the population is 91% white, with 1.1% being black, and yet the vast majority of people actually caught committing crimes are black. Convenience store robberies, arsons, gang activity, assaults, etc.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Supposing that was actually what was presumed by Zimmerman, he was proven correct.

I don't think my point about assumptions is sinking in.

 

[Archivist]

Around here, the black population is 91% white

Before I respond, could you please explain exactly how the black population could be 91% white?

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't think my point about assumptions is sinking in.

Actually, it's quite obvious. Assumptions about someone are wrong even after they've been proven right. That's the point, isn't it?

 

[Aldebaran]

Before I respond, could you please explain exactly how the black population could be 91% white?

Good question!
91% white, 1.1% black, and an assortment of others making up the difference.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Actually, it's quite obvious. Assumptions about someone are wrong even after they've been proven right. That's the point, isn't it?

No, quite the opposite, actually. The point is that you keep claiming to know things that you don't actually know. You keep presenting your assumptions as fact no matter how many times I point out the fact that they're nothing more than assumptions.

 

[Archivist]

Good question!
91% white, 1.1% black, and an assortment of others making up the difference.

Again, how could the black population be 91% white?

 

[Aldebaran]

No, quite the opposite, actually. The point is that you keep claiming to know things that you don't actually know. You keep presenting your assumptions as fact no matter how many times I point out the fact that they're nothing more than assumptions.

Then Martin didn't follow Zimmerman back to his truck, then knock him to the ground and start pounding Zimmerman's head against the pavement? Or could it be just an assumption that Zimmerman did anything at all such as calling the police just because Martin was black?

 

[LiberalChristian1980]

Which ones commit more crimes?
Before you try to tell me that there's no proof that black people commit more crimes, but rather they're just targeted for suspicion because they're black, I've seen plenty of instances in my area where a black person was caught in the act. Around here, the population is 91% white, with 1.1% being black, and yet the vast majority of people actually caught committing crimes are black. Convenience store robberies, arsons, gang activity, assaults, etc.

First, anecdotes aren't data, and you're not a trustworthy source for information about African-Americans.

Second, most crimes are committed by people in desperate economic situations. It doesn't matter what the overall population breakdown in your area is. What is the demographic breakdown of the population where you live in terms of who lives below the poverty line?

 

[Aldebaran]

Again, how could the black population be 91% white?

I'll try one more time.....

The population in my area is 91% white. That leaves 9% of the population being of other races. 1.1% of that is black. That leaves 7.9% of the population of my area being Asian, Hispanic, or other.

 

[Aldebaran]

First, anecdotes aren't data, and you're not a trustworthy source for information about African-Americans.

Second, most crimes are committed by people in desperate economic situations. It doesn't matter what the overall population breakdown in your area is. What is the demographic breakdown of the population where you live in terms of who lives below the poverty line?

If you want to get into economic desperation, then you're off into another subject. That is, unless you want to assert that police are arresting people due to their economic desperation. Either that, or you're looking to justify criminal activity by linking it to economic desperation.

 

[LiberalChristian1980]

Supposing that was actually what was presumed by Zimmerman, he was proven correct.

According to a witness who was on the phone with Trayvon Martin immediately prior to Zimmerman killing him, Trayvon felt very threatened by a creepy man who was following him around the neighborhood, apparently with good cause. Under Florida law, if Trayvon felt threatened, he had a right to defend himself.

The fact is we don't know exactly how the final confrontation started. But we do know that Zimmerman had no business cruising around that neighborhood playing armed vigilante, and Trayvon had every right to walk home from the store.

You should watch some of the recordings of these incidents.

I have watched many. Including nearly identical scenes wherein a white suspect was not killed despite acting as aggressive as African-American suspects who were subject to violence.

Arguing with a police officer is not a death penalty offense. Neither is being uncooperative. We cannot just give the police carte blanche to declare any hand gesture a possible "reach for a weapon" deserving deadly force.

Are you actually asserting that African-Americans who are stopped by the police are more likely to make "threatening" hand gestures than white men who are stopped by the police?

An officer's job is already hard enough without having someone they're dealing with acting in a way that appears threatening.

An officer swears a duty to protect citizens, and that includes civilians that they are interacting with. Ethically, an officer, who operates from a position of authority and who is authorized to use deadly force, has a responsibility to do everything in his power to not cause harm to citizens, even if in so avoiding giving harm he exposes himself to greater risk. When officers kill a "threatening" African American who has no weapon, that risk assessment was incorrect, and if its happening over and over again, we need to find a way to correct it. And if it is happening in situations with black young men but not white young men, that indicates that not only is the risk assessment being handled incorrectly, there appears to be some bias, conscious or not, influencing it.

 

[Archivist]

I'll try one more time.....

The population in my area is 91% white. That leaves 9% of the population being of other races. 1.1% of that is black. That leaves 7.9% of the population of my area being Asian, Hispanic, or other.

Thank you. That isn't what you said before.

 

[cow451]

Are we done rehashing the Zimmerman case?